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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#3481 - 2015-10-19 08:09:58 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Dave is Zinfandel.


i'm a bottle of wine?

i know it's early but i'm really confused by this one...


I think the troll is trying to imply a connection to the former dev CCP Zinfindel.

I saw his corp name and chose to ignore him a few dozen pages ago.


oh, never heard of him.


Nice try Zinfandel.


Maybe you should pretend like people who actually know who CCP Zinfindel was and who he plays as aren't in the room. Better yet don't pretend.
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#3482 - 2015-10-19 08:15:16 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
"By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether you’re an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you don’t use any more, a clever new player looking to invest your fortune into your character, a Corp leader trying to move everyone into a new doctrine or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly Armageddon’s than Stilettos, this feature has you covered"

If its a player customization approach then why not actually give us just that not a sugar coated way to spend cash.

1. Pay for a name change
2. pay for a complete skill remap
3.All new pilots can buy skillpoint packages direct from ccp same as plex 500,000 sp's $6.99 for a limited time say 1 /2 /3 months then it ends - this will benefit the new who want to jump straight into shinies who gives a rats ass if it goes pop.

Character bazaar bought ingame for the fear of RMT, dont quite know what use it would be but its still available then.

That about covers customization CCP win on 1 / 2 and definately 3
Client base win on 1 and 2

Doesnt seem to matter anymore about histories, core principals as long as everyone gets there fix.



Allowing CCP to sell SP from the ether is the very definition of pay to win. No chance that will pass muster with anyone. The only thing this proposal does is allow the trading of skill points already earned from one pilot to the other in a smaller way than the character bazaar.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3483 - 2015-10-19 08:16:42 UTC
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
CCP:
C.) You do not, can not, buy Skill Extractors on the market and can only purchase through Aurum. (Profit for CCP) *Obviously open to debate, just thinking of CCP gains as a company.

You are quite wrong.
Citate from dev blog
Quote:
Both Transneural Skill Extractors and Transneural Skill Packets can be freely traded on the market for ISK


This idea is at its early stages and thus open to change depending on opinions in the community, my idea is exactly that. I am not enforcing or confirming your quote will take place.

Simply putting my idea to the community and CCP.

Idea that something avalible only for RL money is defenetly bad because it's pay to win mechanic.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Dave Stark
#3484 - 2015-10-19 08:17:07 UTC
Urziel99 wrote:
Allowing CCP to sell SP from the ether is the very definition of pay to win. No chance that will pass muster with anyone. The only thing this proposal does is allow the trading of skill points already earned from one pilot to the other in a smaller way than the character bazaar.


SP isn't winning.

however, it's a dumb idea to produce SP from the ether because that removes any kind of supply limit on it. that is very, very bad.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3485 - 2015-10-19 08:19:20 UTC
Urziel99 wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
"By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether you’re an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you don’t use any more, a clever new player looking to invest your fortune into your character, a Corp leader trying to move everyone into a new doctrine or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly Armageddon’s than Stilettos, this feature has you covered"

If its a player customization approach then why not actually give us just that not a sugar coated way to spend cash.

1. Pay for a name change
2. pay for a complete skill remap
3.All new pilots can buy skillpoint packages direct from ccp same as plex 500,000 sp's $6.99 for a limited time say 1 /2 /3 months then it ends - this will benefit the new who want to jump straight into shinies who gives a rats ass if it goes pop.

Character bazaar bought ingame for the fear of RMT, dont quite know what use it would be but its still available then.

That about covers customization CCP win on 1 / 2 and definately 3
Client base win on 1 and 2

Doesnt seem to matter anymore about histories, core principals as long as everyone gets there fix.



Allowing CCP to sell SP from the ether is the very definition of pay to win. No chance that will pass muster with anyone. The only thing this proposal does is allow the trading of skill points already earned from one pilot to the other in a smaller way than the character bazaar.


Thats what everything is moving towards though with this step now, like i said why sugar coat something. A turd is still a turd even if its covered in icing.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3486 - 2015-10-19 08:21:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Bowing to the instant gratification crowd generally leads to high turnover in player base, most commonly those who take advantage of the options of instant gratification.

I don't like the character bazaar but I understand where CCP was trying to cut RTM out for buying and selling characters

I don't like the idea at is core, so any variation of the idea I still wont like but deep down I feel like this is going to happen no matter what players have to say.

That being said here are some of the lease damaging ways I could see this implemented:

  • You can't have more SP that your theoretical maximum. So a character who is 7 months old would have a theoretical maximum of 13,608,000 SP. (7*30*24*2700) A 5 year old character would have maximum of 116,640,000 SP. This would lessen the punishment if a player was never taught about remaps or learning implants, it also effects all players equally as there is only so many time you could use this.
  • You can only inject skill levels. A player would need to remove a skill level from there character and sell that on the market rather than unallocated SP. Less flexible but also less exploitation could occur from this option.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3487 - 2015-10-19 08:25:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Syn'Drakkahr
General Lootit wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
CCP:
C.) You do not, can not, buy Skill Extractors on the market and can only purchase through Aurum. (Profit for CCP) *Obviously open to debate, just thinking of CCP gains as a company.

You are quite wrong.
Citate from dev blog
Quote:
Both Transneural Skill Extractors and Transneural Skill Packets can be freely traded on the market for ISK


This idea is at its early stages and thus open to change depending on opinions in the community, my idea is exactly that. I am not enforcing or confirming your quote will take place.

Simply putting my idea to the community and CCP.

Idea that something avalible only for RL money is defenetly bad because it's pay to win mechanic.


Ok, lets for example say this:

You have 5M SP in mining Skill. You do not mine anymore and would like to change your proffesion. You purchase 5x Skill extractors for £10 and you use 5 Skill Extractors to receive the 5M SP from you mining skills.

You then have 5M SP unallocated. The time invested into those mining skills does not go anywhere, you can simply re-distribute into gunnery or the possiblity to flying a new ship.

Going from mining to flying a new ship does not win EVE. You are paying for a convenience, this is not a P2W mechanic. As stated in my main post, you apply an SP Cap to stop abuse.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3488 - 2015-10-19 08:27:13 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
Allowing CCP to sell SP from the ether is the very definition of pay to win. No chance that will pass muster with anyone. The only thing this proposal does is allow the trading of skill points already earned from one pilot to the other in a smaller way than the character bazaar.


SP isn't winning.

however, it's a dumb idea to produce SP from the ether because that removes any kind of supply limit on it. that is very, very bad.


Why you were an advocate for it before and you said it wouldnt effect anyone, this way it just highlights that those who have deeper RL pockets can benefit from one to three months at the beginning which is where it should only benefit the masses and help the player base grow is it not.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Lim Hiaret
Hiaret Family
#3489 - 2015-10-19 08:27:35 UTC
If this is going to be implemented, there needs to be a way to find out how many SP a character actually has. Not the exact number, but at least a range should be visible. This will be a bit embarrassing.
Pod Me Amidareya
Doomheim
#3490 - 2015-10-19 08:28:30 UTC
It has been said that "Democracy is the worst system of government in existence, except for all the others," and I would have to say the same about this. It has it's problems, and potentials for abuse, but so does the idea of trading entire characters, and this seems designed with safety in mind. Both systems are presented as necessary alternatives to illegal scams available outside of EVE and there is such a thing as the least of many evils. Would CCP Corp profit from this? Probably. But a wealthy CCP means a healthy EVE that will be around for a while for those of us who actually want to play it. I seem to remember a little game called "Earth and Beyond" that saw sunset within a year because it didn't make enough money. I paid $57 for that game and it was gone by the time I had a fast enough internet connection to play it even once. Please, people, have some perspective.
Luscius Uta
#3491 - 2015-10-19 08:29:52 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Luscius Uta wrote:
tl;dr of this dev blog:

You'll be able to trade ISK for SP.

So nothing that you couldn't do on Character Bazaar before. Yet it somehow offends many of the bittervets, even people who I held in high regard, like Ripard Teg. Probably because conversion rates are basically useless for bittervets (I personally belong in >80M SP category as well but I shed no tears).

First thing, bittervets shouldn't be so greedy about their SP and could instead use this new feature to make new alts and quickly train them up.

Second thing,skill trading isn't going to turn EVE into a Pay2Win game...now, I wasn't around when PLEX was introduced, but I can bet on both my arms and legs that it caused a huge outrcy from people who did their best to convince everyone that PLEX is going to turn EVE into (another) Pay2Win, instant gratification game.

If there's one thing that I think it's bad for the future of EVE, that would be ever-rising PLEX prices. Why? Because they are driving new players away. When I started playing in 2011, PLEX was around 400 millions and grinding for enough ISK to PLEX your account was acceptable deal to much greater percentage of newer players than it is today. Of course, nobody ever had to grind for ISK, but "pay to play" MMOs are outdated and that concept isn't going to attract many new players.

So move along, nothing to see here.


Incorrect. You were able to buy characters with higher sp. You were not able to buy sp for a char. kktnxbye.



And why is the former acceptable, but the latter is not? Why would anyone in their right mind buy a new alt just to save few days or weeks from skill training?
The fact that skill trading benefits low SP characters much more than vets is the main reason I don't have any problems with it. Anything that benefits newer players is good for EVE, especially with current PLEX prices.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Dave Stark
#3492 - 2015-10-19 08:31:12 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
Allowing CCP to sell SP from the ether is the very definition of pay to win. No chance that will pass muster with anyone. The only thing this proposal does is allow the trading of skill points already earned from one pilot to the other in a smaller way than the character bazaar.


SP isn't winning.

however, it's a dumb idea to produce SP from the ether because that removes any kind of supply limit on it. that is very, very bad.


Why you were an advocate for it before and you said it wouldnt effect anyone, this way it just highlights that those who have deeper RL pockets can benefit from one to three months at the beginning which is where it should only benefit the masses and help the player base grow is it not.


i'm still an advocate for buying and selling SP between players.

i'm not an advocate of buying SP from CCP who produce it from thin air.

do i have to explain the difference there? i hope not, i assumed you weren't that ignorant.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#3493 - 2015-10-19 08:31:44 UTC
Urziel99 wrote:
Maybe you should pretend like people who actually know who CCP Zinfindel was and who he plays as aren't in the room. Better yet don't pretend.


I thought you blocked me, apparently you're a liar.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3494 - 2015-10-19 08:33:59 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:


Ok, lets for example say this:

You have 5M SP in mining Skill. You do not mine anymore and would like to change your proffesion. You purchase 5x Skill extractors for £10 and you use 5 Skill Extractors to receive the 5M SP from you mining skills.

You then have 5M SP unallocated. The time invested into those mining skills does not go anywhere, you can simply re-distribute into gunnery or the possiblity to flying a new ship.

Going from mining to flying a new ship does not win EVE. You are paying for a convenience, this is not a P2W mechanic. As stated in my main post, you apply an SP Cap to stop abuse.

In EVE "Pay 2 win" term has meaning that someone who wont to pay can't access same features which payers does.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3495 - 2015-10-19 08:34:05 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
Allowing CCP to sell SP from the ether is the very definition of pay to win. No chance that will pass muster with anyone. The only thing this proposal does is allow the trading of skill points already earned from one pilot to the other in a smaller way than the character bazaar.


SP isn't winning.

however, it's a dumb idea to produce SP from the ether because that removes any kind of supply limit on it. that is very, very bad.


Why you were an advocate for it before and you said it wouldnt effect anyone, this way it just highlights that those who have deeper RL pockets can benefit from one to three months at the beginning which is where it should only benefit the masses and help the player base grow is it not.


i'm still an advocate for buying and selling SP between players.

i'm not an advocate of buying SP from CCP who produce it from thin air.

do i have to explain the difference there? i hope not, i assumed you weren't that ignorant.


Seeing as your blind to the difference between Bazaar and TSP , i cannot see any difference to mine its for the benefit of New players and CCP win / win.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#3496 - 2015-10-19 08:34:16 UTC
Urziel99 wrote:
Allowing CCP to sell SP from the ether is the very definition of pay to win. No chance that will pass muster with anyone. The only thing this proposal does is allow the trading of skill points already earned from one pilot to the other in a smaller way than the character bazaar.


No, what it does is remove the consequences of the choices that character made in regards to name, SP allocation and character interaction & history. Buying a char from the bazaar still forces the new owner to deal with those consequences, good and bad. The new system completely circumvents that which has no place in a "choices matter" sandbox MMO.
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#3497 - 2015-10-19 08:34:38 UTC
Quote:


Ok, lets for example say this:

You have 5M SP in mining Skill. You do not mine anymore and would like to change your proffesion. You purchase 5x Skill extractors for £10 and you use 5 Skill Extractors to receive the 5M SP from you mining skills.

You then have 5M SP unallocated. The time invested into those mining skills does not go anywhere, you can simply re-distribute into gunnery or the possiblity to flying a new ship.

Going from mining to flying a new ship does not win EVE. You are paying for a convenience, this is not a P2W mechanic. As stated in my main post, you apply an SP Cap to stop abuse.


The item must be able to be sold on the market for isk. even if the sp can't be traded. It should not be confined to those who can throw cash at CCP.
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#3498 - 2015-10-19 08:36:56 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
Allowing CCP to sell SP from the ether is the very definition of pay to win. No chance that will pass muster with anyone. The only thing this proposal does is allow the trading of skill points already earned from one pilot to the other in a smaller way than the character bazaar.


No, what it does is remove the consequences of the choices that character made in regards to name, SP allocation and character interaction & history. Buying a char from the bazaar still forces the new owner to deal with those consequences, good and bad. The new system completely circumvents that which has no place in a "choices matter" sandbox MMO.


Those inconveniences are very easy to get around once the sale thread is linked. But I suspect the most vehement opponents of this who aren't looking to ban the bazaar are people who supply the bazzar.
Dave Stark
#3499 - 2015-10-19 08:38:45 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
i cannot see any difference to mine its for the benefit of New players and CCP win / win.


you can't see the issue with an unlimited supply of something entering the game?

seriously?
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3500 - 2015-10-19 08:40:46 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
Mag's wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:

Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.

Ahh so a PR exercise, but it's still a done deal?

Nice.

Daniela Doran wrote:
Yes I also really like to know if this is a done deal? The $144.00 usd I'm putting into Eve every month hinges on this decision.


If it was a done deal we'd have put the dev blog out when it was going to be shipped. The whole point of the dev blog is to gather feedback and assess.


And in this thread SP trading received a negative reception. Consider less sensitive revenue streams.