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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#3401 - 2015-10-19 01:04:48 UTC
I've removed some personal attacks. If you'd like to have one-on-one flame fests or just tickle each other, please use EVE mail.

Quote:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.

27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

ISD Decoy

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#3402 - 2015-10-19 01:06:58 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
I hope CCP don't introduce this new feature around the 10th of next month.

Then the (possibly) massive drop off in players online due to Fallout 4 will instead be used as a justification for the I-told-you-so people to party in the streets because they were so right. It takes a special kind of stupid to joyfully dance at the prospect of being right that the game they love is dying. But there you go. They will dance and they will be wrong.

But what will they say 100 hours of FO4 later when all those people start to get the EVE shakes and return to the game? How will they then explain why the numbers are climbing? They'll most certainly not have quit as many are threatening to do, so they'll be around to see the rebound.

Should be interesting to see the backpedaling then. Or the whole issue may be moot as they've all moved on to the next big thing that is causing that unstable sky to fall on them.

Mr Epeen Cool


What would there be to backpedal to with all your chars biomassed?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3403 - 2015-10-19 01:17:19 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Is SP Trading pay to win? It is, for these reasons:
1. SP Trading has no upper bound. If I make 1 SP mule on an account using MCT, I can give my main 1.6M SP per month (80% of 2M) extra. If I have 2 SP mules, my main gets 3.2M SP per month extra. The only upper bound is real money, and someone with lots of money can easily "out-perform" someone who is just playing the game without paying extra money.


I'm sorry, but this just flunks basic math.

Okay, so if you train a character in perpetuity yes, there is infinite skill points.

If I work in perpetuity I earn infinite income.

So, there is no upper bound in this case for either money or skills.

Problem: Nobody lives forever.

So, now we put a non-zero probability on dying, then both of those streams have, essentially, a discount rate. Discounted sums, often converge to...wait for it...wait....finite values.

Further, who cares if in 10 years you'll have a maxed out alt? It is that discounting thing. In 10 years I'll have a main with 285 million SP. What does that mean for me right now? Not much. So....again, this kind of "there is no upper bound" is like, okay and? It is like noting that in the infinite horizon case my 401k will have infinite dollars....big deal, fat lot of good it does me now.

This kind of nonsense is just that.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3404 - 2015-10-19 01:21:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Sibyyl wrote:


2. CCP has not responded to the question of how they would prevent RMT on SP. My belief is that it's not possible. Characters are "big bundles" of SP connected to accounts that can be IP tracked to determined if they've switched hands. PLEXs are cheap enough officially during Amazon sales that it hardly makes much sense to RMT PLEX in the first place. But SP will be an ubiquitous currency that will be traded everywhere. And there is nothing that stops people not currently subscribed to the game from coming in and cashing out.



Uhhhmmm, no. SP is not currency. Just because something is on the market does not make it a currency. There is a market for cars, that does not make cars currency. Could you trade a car for another commodity? Yes, but that does not make cars currency that is called bartering.

Now, if we only used cars to buy and sell things then we could say cars are currency.

Further, how is a player not currently subscribed going to "cash out"? He'd have to subscribe again at a minimum. And by cashing out is that some sort of RMT?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#3405 - 2015-10-19 02:09:24 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Delegate wrote:


My personal take on this proposal is that CCP find itself increasingly out of options to maintain the revenue stream. I personally would prefer paying higher sub price, than witnessing this SP market go online.


WOD, Dust, Gunjack, Valkyrie - who do you think pays for these developments? If you extract massive amounts of capital from the project that earns you this - what is going to happen if not enough is left to satisfy these customers or if you need more because you wastet these investments, canceling projects? Do a simple math what ccp has to pay for eve fanfest or vegas and think about what could have happend to this game if all this money and devtime had been used from the beginning to primarily develop eve instead?

Still wating on them to keep their promises from 2011: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ0k0ioROUo

That´s a timeframe others develop complete and complex AAA games


Very good point.

CCP has squandered the revenues they made from Eve on other non-profitable ventures as stated in the post above. And now in order to compensate for those losses they're trying to dig in deeper and milk their only bread winner even further??
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#3406 - 2015-10-19 02:14:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Charlie Nonoke wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Charlie Nonoke wrote:

By your calculations, there's also another advantage, if a newbie has 12 PLEX to spend, he would, and I know I would, rather burn up the 12 PLEX initially for a 30m injection, rather than spend 12 PLEX for a year's subscription, and only passive train about 23m SP, assuming 2700SP\hr, which also is impossible to achieve because of remaps and Cybernetics V.

Sure he misses the 12 months playtime, but he gets more SP, and gets instant delivery. All while only spending 12 PLEX.

BTW, I also hate the idea.


As opposed to now where that players buys a 30+M SP character on the bazaar with PLEX left over to add gametime or buy ships?

And if you hate the idea of buying SP, I'm sure I'll find posts in your history where you are railing at the idea that characters can be purchased already.

Mr Epeen Cool

I'm not against the character bazaar and its function, because skills were already tailored by the original capsuleer and decisions were made by him. The new buyer has to accept those decisions, like neg stat, corp thief, crap name.

This idea negates all that history and is essentially paying for SP.

Character Bazaar is also paying for SP, but it comes at the price that it's not 1st hand.


It's no secret to me that you're a Dev alt Dave and you're most likely the main one who's constructed this insidiously cancerous idea and is trying your best to convert the masses in this thread to follow your plot. I'm not buying it and I seriously hope no one else will because I know what it will lead to in the future.

But this post is something that you really, REALLY need to comprehend. Please try your best to get this Dave. Try harder and harder if you have to.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#3407 - 2015-10-19 02:23:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Lori Tempa wrote:
Negative status is fixed with tags now. Corp thief means nothing after you've bought a character, crap name is something that a lot of people have Charlie.

The character bazaar is paying for sp no matter how you try to spin it. This method is better than the character bazaar because of the reasons you listed. I don't see why these disadvatages are needed when someone is trying to get something they need in terms of a trained pilot.






Character Bazaar is buying SP, but as stated, it comes at a cost. That cost is something that's become acceptable. Now with this proposal CCP want's to get rid of that cost making it downright pay2win which is extremely cancerous to any subscription game. It almost always marks the beginning of the end with MMO games and players (like myself) would gradually start to lose confidence in a game with the principles Eve built itself on.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3408 - 2015-10-19 02:27:33 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
Charlie Nonoke wrote:
I'm not against the character bazaar and its function, because skills were already tailored by the original capsuleer and decisions were made by him. The new buyer has to accept those decisions, like neg stat, corp thief, crap name.

This idea negates all that history and is essentially paying for SP.

Character Bazaar is also paying for SP, but it comes at the price that it's not 1st hand.


Please try your best to get this Dave. Try harder and harder if you have to.
Are we still treating all of those aspects as universals? That every character for sale is a awoxing corp thief with terrible standings, or further pretending that this largely matters for those not in need of new social connections?

Further, so long as the character has the flexibility or specific functionality you are looking for how does the fact that someone else tailored it diminish that character or the functions of it you bought?
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3409 - 2015-10-19 02:39:07 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
It is totally relevant, if this goes live it will affect the NPE to deny that is ridiculous. How it will be perceived is open to debate, but I think a fair case can be made that many will see buying skillpoints as necessary.


the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.


The quantity is what's new, as you like saying so often, it's in the dev blog, the granular nature of these skill packets will make it more normal for new guys to buy them where it would be less usual to buy an entire character. This comes with a downside as new guys who can't afford a sub and skill packets will see their immediate peers (as someone else already pointed out) advancing more quickly than them. Your argument is obtuse and fails to recognise the importance of how new players perceive things.


he's going to see some one buy SP packets, or a new character. if some one is going to pay to advance, they're going to pay to advance. pretending that'll only be the case because we're now selling SP a different way is laughable.

if he can't afford to pay to advance and his peers can, he will be left behind regardless of whether or not this system is added to the game.

i don't fail to recognise the importance, you fail to recognise it already exists and isn't new.

So what your saying is - Those with plenty of disposable income that can afford to buy enhancements for their play style are the only ones CCP are interested in keeping as customers?

Those who can't afford all the nice leaps in training or buying a char off the bazaar, get left behind and quit but that is ok because that is how it is now - This change is not going to help new player retention (the main goal) So why bother doing it at all?

If new player retention is the main goal (as it would seem), the honest challenge is how effective this idea is for actual sustain. If the problem is finding nothing to do, is an extra million SP really a fix?

If the problem with the design is SP -- characters come to explore the game and are shown a gate.. and monetary options -- how much more interesting are "reduced (but-still-very) monetized" progressions? Packets should be 300M-ish, yeah? So, say they come upon ~ 1B for their introductory experience. They very plainly have the option of spending it on PLEX for the subscription.. but that's so much for what's a simple payment. Then, isn't it immediately clear how much more efficient it is paying real money -- and that they have no interest in that (note: there's already the money for the sub, and this is the market of F2P games)?

Maybe, "What is a few PLEX?" but then what? It's a huge stack of options that they don't get to play for a really diverse and deep sandbox, yet they've spent multiple wads on the idea.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Ulysses Meta
Xue Yuan
#3410 - 2015-10-19 03:01:41 UTC
Its pretty obvious that Eve needs some fresh blood - more players that is - what i really cant see is why the entire "establishment" should be screwed in the process...
What (tf) "options to help new players with progression" has to do with such a huge change in game doctrine?
From what i see browsing the thread this new proposed "system" is at least challanged - and with valid and legit reasons - by most of the vets (bitter or not)... as it should be since the outcome would affect the entire foundation of their "vet" status... that is the main reason behind all the "NO"s posted or implied... it doesnt even matter they would have ALL the "echonomical" benefits from the change, that is an insignificant compensation for shaking the well established (and hard worked for) hierarcies...
On the other hand the benefit in the "lets kick the new players (or characters) progression" IS actually something well worth to work for (not going to elaborate on that - both the developers and any eve player, new or old, should be well aware)... so...the main problem should be to accomodate the opposite views... i'd say a 20-30...50m cap on char SP who'd be able to "improve" using the new packets would do the trick... or maybe a better shaped "diminishing returns" system (for example 1% effectiveness on chars above 80m SP) would be a more resonable solution...

0 – 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added
5 – 10 million skillpoints = 450,000 unallocated skillpoints added
10 – 15 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added
15 – 20 million skillpoints = 300,000 unallocated skillpoints added
20 –40 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added
40 –60 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added
60 – 80 million skillpoints = 20,000 unallocated skillpoints added
> 80 million skillpoints = 5,000 unallocated skillpoints added




IF the above post looks bad the only thing to blame is my poor English spelling & vocabulary level(s)...
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#3411 - 2015-10-19 03:10:59 UTC
There's quite a few things I would like to do much more effectively but cannot due to SP limitations.

Sure, I can do them now but since the act is balanced around max skill, it's terribly inefficient thus making it extremely hasslesome and barely accomplishable.

Because I cannot do these things in a manner that is enjoyable, I do not do them as often as I feel I would if it were possible to do them how CCP intended them to be done, at the required skills maximum level.

Because most of the things I want to do, I cannot, it means the few things I can do result in my not doing much most of the time.

Granted, if there's nothing I want to do available at that time, I can always alt tab and play league of legends or civ 5 while I sit in station on comms waiting for opportunities to present themselves. . . . .

But that doesn't seem like too great of a solution, go play other games, now does it?

And this is with my 10mil SP. Imagine how the n00bs 3-4 months in are faring. I bet they're all diamond level now.3+256+84+8+
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#3412 - 2015-10-19 03:29:51 UTC
Etara Silverblade wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
When feature will be implemented then you will find out how much your skill points are worth.


Right now my skillpoints are priceless and putting a price on them cheapens my loyalty to the game and the time I spent getting those skill points.

Right now time in game equals skill points and after this is in, money will equal skill points. It's that simple and I will have none of it.


You won't be the only one. I'll be out as well.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#3413 - 2015-10-19 03:40:36 UTC
Delegate wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
I'm going to make a better argument against this new proposal than has been seen in the first 165 pages of this thread.

you can use this system to "bypass" prerequisites for ships. you can train the prerequisites for say, command ships, then extract all the leadership SP and still fly them.

there needs to be a check to ensure that you cannot extract sp from skills where you have trained something that requires the skill you are trying to extract.


Man, really, I have no words for what your're doing in this thread.

CCP Terminus wrote:
The current plan is to not allow skillpoints to be extracted from skills that are requirements of other skills. So in your example you would have to remove the Command Ships skill before you could remove any prerequisite skills like Armored Warfare.
We also plan on having this be something you can only do in stations, so you wouldn't be stuck in in space in a ship you can no longer fly.





He's a Dev alt, and the one who came up with this crap. He's gotta make himself look good or he may get fired, LOL.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#3414 - 2015-10-19 03:51:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Mr Epeen wrote:
Once this goes live I will be accepting SP pack donations for my Make Don ZOLA cry drive. The only thing he cares about is SP and I intend to acquire more than him.

I won't lie to you folks. I'm at under 60 k SP right now so it'll take some dedication on your part. But if we all pull together on this you will see forum rage as you never have before.

Mr Epeen Cool


Figures why you support this. You want to inject some SP into your failed char. You fail at char creation so it's no wonder why you don't see the value in it.

Also explains the reason why the others are in the Dave's Club.
Redneck Robot
Doomheim
#3415 - 2015-10-19 03:52:02 UTC
This seems like a great idea !

I am a new player, i want to play, but am told i need months of training to "fly this to join for that". so i am not sure i can play.

Should i sub account for 6 months and make nice training plan, and then just maybe never come back to EvE?

What if i could spend the same money to buy the 6 months of skills now, and REALLY get hooked and stay with game for years? sounds good to me.

Are you 5-10 year vets really scared of me spending $100 and getting 6 months closer to you in skills?

Couldn't i just buy uber pilot from bazaar now anyway and drive big scary ship to hunt you with if i wanted?

And sure, some mega rich can buy SP to max their toon out, but, uh, how is that so bad? if a guy has 100mil SP is 200 mil really gonna make him that much better?

Maybe it will,,,,so maybe make this JUST to help new guys...

Let anyone extract SP to sell, but make it ONLY work for toons with less then 10mil SP already to use.

Then "you" can sell those skills you dont want, i can get my 6 months catch up so i can fly T2 and join for things, and CCP can make money, Win-Win-Win

P.S. yes i know i can take my week old toon and kill rookie miners in hig sec, but uh, that dont sound like to much fun really.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3416 - 2015-10-19 04:00:21 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Part 4: SP Trading will be abused.

Let me list the ways:
1. SP mules making passive income on countless accounts
2. People blowing away the max 2700 SP per hour limit. Now there is no upper limit so characters could gain as much SP as they want per hour, because sky's the limit for an IRL rich player
3. Large alliances will be able to afford SP packets for their rookie line members. Small alliance won't be able to.
4. Instant gratification for Alliance Tournament participation. Cash in SPs and enlist as a contender (maybe Elise considers to be a good thing). Can you see how this will be abused when combined with #3?
5. People un-biomassing old characters to cash in on SPs.
6. EVE quitters subscribing for 1 month to cash in on SPs.
7. RMT RMT RMT RMT RMT
8. Awoxers, corp thieves, spies recycled with only a 20% hit in SPs
9. It will perpetuate the myth that SPs make you win EVE to people who will fork out money to chase this myth. This will be one of the biggest exploits that rookies will face coming into EVE, and when they realize SPs don't make them good players they will quit.
Weren't you in favor a hundred pages ago? LOL I changed my mind too. Lol

1. Not going to happen, there isn't much money to be made. Since anybody can make an SP mule with near-zero effort, it won't be profitable. Think 50M ISK max a month or so. Also, there's a good chance people may sell unneeeded SP for lower than the SP mule cost (there's a lot of unneeded SP in EVE), effectively making SP mules unprofitable.

2. Sky isn't really the limit. After 50M SP, after 80M SP it becomes crazy expensive. Also, who cares? High-SP characters don't make a real difference in EVE per se.

3. True, though I wouldn't underestimate the cost even for them. Also, giving someone SRP incentivates them to stay, if you give them SP they might as well say 'hey, thanks!' and leave anytime... Not a great use for alliance ISK.

4. AT needs great pilots. If you suck, SP won't matter. If you're talented, having additional SP is a good thing IMO. Again, it ain't cheap.

5. This is awesome as it will lower SP price

6. This is awesome as it will lower SP price

7. ? not an expert on this

8. This is awesome as it will lower SP price

9. Same as PLEX abuse and misunderstanding game mechanics, we'll get great ALODs. On one hand, anyone that cares about newbros has always gone out of their way to explain EVE mechanics and that ISK and SP matter less than social skills and piloting skills. On the other hand, if noobs won't listen, f*k them. At least they'll give the game some cash.


Regarding 5, 6 and 8, if there really is a big SP dump the etreme consequence is that everyone will afford to be at 50M SP. Beyond that diminishing returns kick in super hard. Is more people being able to fly lots of stuff a bad thing for EVE? I don't think so.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#3417 - 2015-10-19 04:03:33 UTC
Redneck Robot wrote:
This seems like a great idea !

Are you 5-10 year vets really scared of me spending $100 and getting 6 months closer to you in skills?


Personally, no. For me the issue is that not all new guys can just drop $100 upfront on a game they've played for 2 weeks, but when some of them see you and others like you do it, they will feel left behind because they didn't and that's not a perception that's healthy for new player retention.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#3418 - 2015-10-19 04:12:48 UTC
Vodar Valimian wrote:
This is such an epic bad idea that i cringe just thinking about it.

Here are my 2 cents.

- Cent 1 - Having a perfectly skilled character in any specific field used to be a testament to the patience and dedication of the player who built the character. These characters are rare because the investment in time and sacrifice is significant.

But no longer. Want a perfect (insert major ship type here)? 30 min and currency (poof). The fact that a character with the combination of these skills were so rare was a testament to the player who invested years in their creation. Remove the scarcity, remove the value. This idea so cheapens the game and the existing characters that it is hard to take it seriously.

- Cent 2 - How does this make any sense at all. The whole point of clones and transfer of memories is that you transfer your memories. How can you transfer someone else's experiences.

Bottom line, this is a sickening and obvious cash grab and I predict it will make eve just another (play to win) (fail) game.

Thanks,

Vodar


This post should be spammed after every Dave Starks post.
Jonathan Deepspace
Doomheim
#3419 - 2015-10-19 04:38:24 UTC
I've been waiting for years to see something like that and I knew it will happen eventually.
I know there is so many players crying once they see it but... it's like didn't let kids go to better schools because there was no good schools when we were kids. Bullshit!
Despite some number of players who will probably quit the game for this reason, there is huge chance of making new large group of interest about EVE. Whoever says it's an end - it's just end of you having gigantic advantage over new players - not end of the game.
Another thing I would like to see in eve is buying a remap [e.g. for a plex]
Canadian Fire
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#3420 - 2015-10-19 04:38:48 UTC
All things considered it's not really such a horrible idea, but I still don't like it. If it is to be implemented, I would like to see a hard cap on it. IE you cannot inject SP on characters with over XX number of SP. Or some kind of balancing mechanic to make it so a day 1 char can get a big advantage, yes, but can't jump straight to all level 5 skills for $15,000 USD.
At the very least I can catch up on some SP I missed when I wasn't able to sub I suppose.