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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3381 - 2015-10-18 22:44:00 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Saying these are not cons is not enough.

Put your feet in the fire and give me arguments as to why these aren't cons.
I just did for the ones that actually make sense as cons to begin with. For the rest questioning the logic should be more than fine as a claim worth making should be a claim worth justifying.

Sibyyl wrote:
Edit: Let me be clear. "Pain" is not a defense of anything. We are arguing a system with Pros and Cons. My point is besides the ISK cost, SP Trading has no cons. Putting a higher ISK cost on a notoriously pay to win mechanism is not a Con at all.

And what you're calling "pain" is what I call expected logistics of playing EVE. Are you sure you're an EVE player?
Actually yes, you are arguing the 2 systems are incomparable due to the cons surrounding the Bazaar but not present in the proposed, and that as a result SP transfer is distinct and bad.

Regarding logistics, that's just a transfer from the character being a product competing against others to a packet that can't create the same unique draws and thus becomes a more competitive product with it's own logistical hurdles. It doesn't eliminate the concept, but migrates it to a better product.

As for whether I'm sure I'm an eve player, are you confused about the forum you're on?
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#3382 - 2015-10-18 22:45:53 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:


Mainly I am trying to figure out WHO this is for and who it benefits.

any ideas?

m
I have some ideas.

I feel it will benefit the same people that already take advantage of the ability to bypass the grind by using the Character Bazaar.

It will not be specifically be new people. It will not be specifically older players. Gankers, alt builders, Awoxxers, etc. Just people who are willing to pay up front to jump ahead in the SP grind. As they do now.

There is no specific demographic that uses the CB. Though it seems to be slightly weighted toward new players. Still plenty of people, vets mostly, buying FOTM characters and high SP capital characters.

As I have said before, the people who are inclined to purchase characters for whatever reason will possibly take advantage of SP packs while those that don't currently buy characters are unlikely to suddenly change their minds about spending more money on top of the subscription just because there is another SP buying option available.

Mr Epeen Cool
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3383 - 2015-10-18 22:47:13 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

(2) This is an issue why?

It's an issue because as long as you pay more money you can train faster than 2700/hr. By definition it's pay to win because another RL poor player can't do anything inside the game to catch up to accelerated training rates.


(3) What large alliances can provide is already different in scale.

If you think is a problem (and you should), then why arm them with SPs as another item in the toolbox? Malcanis's Law tells us newbies will not benefit proportionately. In fact, they will be at a greater disadvantage.


(4) We have participants vetted by skill over SP, not seeing the problem.

Do you know why some AT contestants train Rigging skills to V? It's not for the sake of watching the SP counter tick.


(5), (6) So we have a small spike between that and current subscribers trimming accounts, making the packets initial high price likely drop quickly assisting with accessibility, an overall positive. Room for abuse, but just needs policy vetted beforehand (unbiomassed characters cannot use extractors/etc)

I haven't seen any supporters add any required caveats to the system. Are you admitting that the system as it stands is open to abuse?


(7) From who? Buyers or sellers? Sellers unlikely since a functioning legal market without repercussion exists, buyers for the same reasons, unless insinuating that sellers are using it to create isk reserves for sale, but the Bazaar can hold the same function.

Sellers will RMT and CCP has no way that I understand of preventing it. How do you prevent RMT on skill packets? How would CCP even know? Big alliances are going to be giving these things away to newbies.


(8) Are we assuming these roles train to 50m SP? Are we further assuming the 100+ extractors to transfer SP will be viewed as a trivial expense regularly?

Corp thief, awoxer, spy roles are not >50m.


(9)Considering that this notion already has players looking at multi-billion purchases that disassociate themselves with their chosen identities reducing the overhead and strengthening their character investment seems like an overall positive.

Ripping off new players is a bad business model. Tradable SPs are there for new players. These SPs won't make them better players. How many newbies have you run into that "get" the game quickly enough that they would need to buy SPs? Do you think the newbies who "get" the game complain about waiting for training? You see the paradox in CCP's hypothesis behind this change?

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3384 - 2015-10-18 22:56:00 UTC

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Actually yes, you are arguing the 2 systems are incomparable due to the cons surrounding the Bazaar but not present in the proposed, and that as a result SP transfer is distinct and bad.

Regarding logistics, that's just a transfer from the character being a product competing against others to a packet that can't create the same unique draws and thus becomes a more competitive product with it's own logistical hurdles. It doesn't eliminate the concept, but migrates it to a better product.

SP Trading is unbalanced, as it stands. It's un-auditable, RMT-able, comes without consequences, without logistics problems.. and all it asks for in return in (maybe) more ISK.

Calling it more competitive is like saying me giving to 10M ISK immediately is "more competitive" than you mining in hisec for an hour. Gimme's are "more competitive" but we're arguing against putting gimme's in the game in the first place.



Quote:
As for whether I'm sure I'm an eve player, are you confused about the forum you're on?

Calling character reputations, fixed character names, logistics.. all of these things that are a part of the EVE experience "a pain" is mischaracterizing the argument. "It sucks to have to ship things" is not enough of an argument unless we're talking about revamping the entire game and how character reputations and moving stuff around works.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#3385 - 2015-10-18 22:56:29 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:


As I have said before, the people who are inclined to purchase characters for whatever reason will possibly take advantage of SP packs while those that don't currently buy characters are unlikely to suddenly change their minds about spending more money on top of the subscription just because there is another SP buying option available.


Nonsense, there is far more incentive to buy a 500k skillpack than a 10, 20, 30 million sp character. What you are saying is as if people who cannot afford a holiday home wouldn't be interested in a 2 week holiday in the same resort.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3386 - 2015-10-18 23:07:07 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

It's an issue because as long as you pay more money you can train faster than 2700/hr. By definition it's pay to win because another RL poor player can't do anything inside the game to catch up to accelerated training rates.

Yes, they can. They can earn more isk through superior in game knowledge and use that isk to procure the SP packets that are only sold via isk. It's exactly how PLEX functions now, removing the need for IRL monetary resources by being "Good at EvE".

If you think is a problem (and you should), then why arm them with SPs as another item in the toolbox? Malcanis's Law tells us newbies will not benefit proportionately. In fact, they will be at a greater disadvantage.

Why should it be a problem? Why shouldn't corps and alliances be expected to compete for potential membership and have options to offer potential recruits and members to reinforce their competitive abilities? If we're applying Malcanis' Law on a corp/alliance level we're pretty much saying the idea of corps being of value o their members is wrong.

Do you know why some AT contestants train Rigging skills to V? It's not for the sake of watching the SP counter tick.

No, it's for the extra performance and/or fitting options entailed, which I still don't see as an issue.

I haven't seen any supporters add any required caveats to the system. Are you admitting that the system as it stands is open to abuse?

Yes, and I've made a few suggestions and requests of this nature, including a cap at which SP can no longer be applied to a character, possible more aggressive scaling of diminishing returns, and the suggestion that skill removal should not be possible to free up more prerequisite SP. I'd be willing to add more as I think of other plausible abuses. And the AUR price still needs evaluated.

Sellers will RMT and CCP has no way that I understand of preventing it. How do you prevent RMT on skill packets? How would CCP even know? Big alliances are going to be giving these things away to newbies.

This is a point I must concede for lack of understanding of how CCP finds and tracks RMT activity.

Corp thief, awoxer, spy roles are not >50m.

Then we're not getting a 10% loss as 4.5m SP, or 9% of 50m is gone and untransferrable, adding to that the loss of efficiency after 5m on adding the SP. At lower SP totals trained the loss becomes greater due to that same level of unrecoverable SP.

Ripping off new players is a bad business model. Tradable SPs are there for new players. These SPs won't make them better players. How many newbies have you run into that "get" the game quickly enough that they would need to buy SPs? Do you think the newbies who "get" the game complain about waiting for training? You see the paradox in CCP's hypothesis behind this change?

I actually do see new players complain from time to time about SP, we also know that the majority of characters bough are to new players if the dev posts are to be believed. We already have a system that encourages far greater single expenditures from new players and thus for those players probably gives the same feeling you argue against in greater form than granular packets would, or so the reason follows. It's not a paradox so much as an admission that so long as the skill system and the Bazaar exist we will have a perception issue and this could ease that by making it less daunting at the market level.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3387 - 2015-10-18 23:08:32 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Astroyka wrote:
General Lootit wrote:

Mike, what personal reasone you have to dislike this idea? How it will affects you personally?


I really hope Mike is not speaking too much from personal opinion, he's a CSM and should be speaking from a wider viewpoint, which I believe he is.

He definitely speaking for him selfe in that case
Mike Azariah wrote:

I dislike the Character Bazaar so of course I will dislike the new TSP's as they are similar (not the same, though)

but most personal opinion(without any personal reason) I could read from him about this topic is
Mike Azariah wrote:

I am also against this. I could go into details but . . . this feels wrong to me. Against what I thought the game to be.


I mix reactions between personal and looking out over all the game. Emotional ones are personal. The questions I have are more general and far reaching. The fears of PLEX going through the roof do not directly effect me as I do not plex.

I am large, I contain multitudes . . . .

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#3388 - 2015-10-18 23:10:05 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:


As I have said before, the people who are inclined to purchase characters for whatever reason will possibly take advantage of SP packs while those that don't currently buy characters are unlikely to suddenly change their minds about spending more money on top of the subscription just because there is another SP buying option available.


Nonsense, there is far more incentive to buy a 500k skillpack than a 10, 20, 30 million sp character. What you are saying is as if people who cannot afford a holiday home wouldn't be interested in a 2 week holiday in the same resort.

I won't be buying any SP packs. I see no incentive in paying up to 100 times the going rate for SP (in an extreme adding SP to a 300M SP character example). But anything over whatever the lowest tier ends up being will be more expensive that can be purchased in the CB in the form of a focused, unused character.

People will figure that out soon enough. As well, if CCP was just 'selling vacations', no one would be getting so wound up. All the tears in here are from people thinking people are going to be buying dozens of SP packs. Not one or two to get started.

Mr Epeen Cool
Sean Crees
Sean's Safe Haven
#3389 - 2015-10-18 23:21:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Sean Crees
Sibyyl wrote:

Part 3: SP Trading is Pay to Win

I define "pay to win" as any feature that is locked behind a paywall that another RL poor gamer can't unlock no matter how much time and effort he spends in the game.

Is PLEX pay to win? No for 2 reasons:
1. Buying shinier things doesn't make you a better player automatically
2. A person can work hard enough in game and earn the ISK to get a PLEX

Is Character Bazaar pay to win? No for the same 2 reasons as I listed for PLEX.

Is SP Trading pay to win? It is, for these reasons:
1. SP Trading has no upper bound. If I make 1 SP mule on an account using MCT, I can give my main 1.6M SP per month (80% of 2M) extra. If I have 2 SP mules, my main gets 3.2M SP per month extra. The only upper bound is real money, and someone with lots of money can easily "out-perform" someone who is just playing the game without paying extra money.
2. CCP has not responded to the question of how they would prevent RMT on SP. My belief is that it's not possible. Characters are "big bundles" of SP connected to accounts that can be IP tracked to determined if they've switched hands. PLEXs are cheap enough officially during Amazon sales that it hardly makes much sense to RMT PLEX in the first place. But SP will be an ubiquitous currency that will be traded everywhere. And there is nothing that stops people not currently subscribed to the game from coming in and cashing out.




Wouldn't SP Trading fall under the same 2 points as PLEX and Character Bazaar?

1. Buying SP doesn't make you a better player automatically
2. A person can work hard enough in game and earn the isk to get a SP Packet.

How does that not work for SP packets, but works for PLEX and the Character Bazaar?

The only way this is P2W, is if PLEX and the Character Bazaar are also P2W. In a sense they are, but they all work very similarly. You can pay real money to get them to give you an edge beyond what someone has the capability of doing only through in game means.

I mean i can see the Pay 2 Win Argument, but i can't see it if you don't also admit that PLEX and the Character Bazaar are also P2W and you're against those as well. Don't be a hypocrite.
TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#3390 - 2015-10-18 23:28:04 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:


As I have said before, the people who are inclined to purchase characters for whatever reason will possibly take advantage of SP packs while those that don't currently buy characters are unlikely to suddenly change their minds about spending more money on top of the subscription just because there is another SP buying option available.


Nonsense, there is far more incentive to buy a 500k skillpack than a 10, 20, 30 million sp character. What you are saying is as if people who cannot afford a holiday home wouldn't be interested in a 2 week holiday in the same resort.

I won't be buying any SP packs. I see no incentive in paying up to 100 times the going rate for SP (in an extreme adding SP to a 300M SP character example). But anything over whatever the lowest tier ends up being will be more expensive that can be purchased in the CB in the form of a focused, unused character.

People will figure that out soon enough. As well, if CCP was just 'selling vacations', no one would be getting so wound up. All the tears in here are from people thinking people are going to be buying dozens of SP packs. Not one or two to get started.

Mr Epeen Cool


If Citadels allow me to dock my titans and supers and use them all on one Account, ...I would be very tempted to add SP packs to my Account at over the 80m threshold allowing my main to switch between all 4 titans. Yes i can afford it with isk, no i wouldnt care about the price. I cant say i have ever seen any character in the Bazaar max skilled for every titan and super, but i could have it...(it would also allow me to choose the super for the situation without having 9 Super alts) Or i could choose to have all 9 of my super alts have the choice of flying the supers..so then ill have a fleet of 9 supers of the ship type i choose rather than having 81 super alts with supers sat in space.

However i wont as i would hate to see CCP profit from p2w. But if i wanted to do this, i could and have the isk reserves to do so.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#3391 - 2015-10-18 23:39:28 UTC
TinkerHell wrote:

I cant say i have ever seen any character in the Bazaar max skilled for every titan and super,


Need to actually look if you want to find something. You think you could SP pack that character for less than the 200+ billion it sold for?

I'll wait for you to do the math and get back to me. Don't forget to show your work.

Mr Epeen Cool
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#3392 - 2015-10-18 23:41:40 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
TinkerHell wrote:

I cant say i have ever seen any character in the Bazaar max skilled for every titan and super,


Need to actually look if you want to find something. You think you could SP pack that character for less than the 200+ billion it sold for?

I'll wait for you to do the math and get back to me. Don't forget to show your work.

Mr Epeen Cool


It is not maxed as he said. You fail. Again :shocker:

:D

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#3393 - 2015-10-18 23:49:35 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
TinkerHell wrote:

I cant say i have ever seen any character in the Bazaar max skilled for every titan and super,


Need to actually look if you want to find something. You think you could SP pack that character for less than the 200+ billion it sold for?

I'll wait for you to do the math and get back to me. Don't forget to show your work.

Mr Epeen Cool


It is not maxed as he said. You fail. Again :shocker:

:D


LOL saw that coming. And I new it would be you. It's nice to have someone pick up the slack from Jenn. His stalking has been somewhat lackluster lately.

Mr Epeen Cool
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#3394 - 2015-10-18 23:54:30 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
TinkerHell wrote:

I cant say i have ever seen any character in the Bazaar max skilled for every titan and super,


Need to actually look if you want to find something. You think you could SP pack that character for less than the 200+ billion it sold for?

I'll wait for you to do the math and get back to me. Don't forget to show your work.

Mr Epeen Cool


It is not maxed as he said. You fail. Again :shocker:

:D


LOL saw that coming. And I new it would be you. It's nice to have someone pick up the slack from Jenn. His stalking has been somewhat lackluster lately.

Mr Epeen Cool


I have to apologize in advance as I will disappoint you, since enough was said and hopefully CSM and CCP will work it out there is no need to feed trolls here anymore. Still, I might add some now and then though :)

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#3395 - 2015-10-18 23:55:49 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
TinkerHell wrote:

I cant say i have ever seen any character in the Bazaar max skilled for every titan and super,


Need to actually look if you want to find something. You think you could SP pack that character for less than the 200+ billion it sold for?

I'll wait for you to do the math and get back to me. Don't forget to show your work.

Mr Epeen Cool


It is not maxed as he said. You fail. Again :shocker:

:D


LOL saw that coming. And I new it would be you. It's nice to have someone pick up the slack from Jenn. His stalking has been somewhat lackluster lately.

Mr Epeen Cool

Hardly stalking when someone points out your bombastic put down is factually incorrect Lol
Marsha Mallow
#3396 - 2015-10-19 00:05:26 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
unless we're talking about revamping the entire game and how character reputations and moving stuff around works.

Revamping the entire game seems to have been in motion for at least 6 months if not longer, but maybe that's just my take on it.

Is that such a bad thing?

As an aside, 'character reputation' might actually be reinforced by a change which encourages people to invest their time and ISK into one rather than multiple alts. And if they train those alts from scratch themselves - even using SP boosters - they're possibly less likely to be willing to sell the character later on if they're naughty. Reinforcing the reputation/consequence principle rather than undermining it is as likely as increased anonymity if people are more invested in their mains. Personal attachment counts more on alts trained from scratch, as does rl $ investment.

One of the benefits of a more fluid type of SP system would be that instead of being encouraged to roll 2-3-ridiculous numbers of accounts in order to specialise, people would just be able to try different playstyles on a single alt. Then actually play it to the max without being trapped into running multiple accounts. I've noticed ingame a real drop off from players who hit 2-3 years and have finally got a well specced subcap/cap/super alt, bought all of those ships etc. Then sit there with no further goals and start moaning about the sub cost of maintaining multiple accounts. A dynamic character training system might accelerate that process, although it depends upon the playstyles they engage in ingame and how fast they exhaust those possibilities. People might drop out at 6 months having exhausted the content, but if more of them play and the amount of revenue they generate is equivalent I'm really not sure I care. Or that there's any evidence to suggest they'd be massively disruptive to the rest of the game. Having said that, I find Nigel Farage hilarious, and there are parts of this discussion that could very easily be compared to that type of rhetoric.

And for what it's worth, existing players who chose to continue subbing and training their characters without engaging in any SP extraction or injection won't be affected anyway. Other than to look at newer players using a different system with annoyance and resentment. Well, they already do that to people who buy characters, and I'm not sure their disapproval is particularly relevant. This reminds me a lot of that discussion over Drone skill changes in which a number of people protested newer players being allocated 'free' SP. Despite them having had the benefit of those skills for years. Their motivations were transparently vindictive in that topic, if anyone remembers it.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3397 - 2015-10-19 00:41:59 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Teckos Pech wrote:


Not entirely true.

Let N be the sum total of characters in Eve with more than 5 million SP. Let K be the sum total of SP of these N characters. The total number of SP that could, in theory make it onto the market is:

K - N*5,000,000.

That is the upper limit on SP that could find its way into the market.

In reality we will probably never see that number on the market.

Thus, there is going to be a limit.

The fact, that over time more and more SP are being generated does not imply non-scarcity. After we are growing more food as time goes by how can there ever be starvation and malnutrition?


Pay to win means no upper limit. That's the point. The limit only exists to RL poor players.

Starvation exists because of politics and logistics. Neither of those affects the EVE market in any way.



Okay, let me try it again.

The SP have to come from existing characters. At any given time that number is a finite number. Ergo, at any given time, the number of SP is finite.

This is pretty much a fact. Calling it pay to win does not entitle your or Elise Randolph to dodge facts. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3398 - 2015-10-19 00:45:50 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Delegate wrote:
How did you infer the "most of them new customers" part?

CCP Terminus wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:

Roughly 70 characters are traded per day, not per month. Something like 25000 a year give or take.

Some more data:
- Most traded characters are 50 million SP or lower.
- A good portion of trades are to newer players (measured by new customers not just new accounts).


Are you able to distinguish new accounts from alt accounts?


Not perfectly but yes, that's what measured by new customers not just new accounts implies.


Basically that. Things like email addresses probably work pretty good. Similarly credit cards. It would not be perfect as CCP Terminus noted, but it would capture most of it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3399 - 2015-10-19 00:52:29 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

I define "pay to win" as any feature that is locked behind a paywall that another RL poor gamer can't unlock no matter how much time and effort he spends in the game.

Is SP Trading pay to win? It is, for these reasons:
1. SP Trading has no upper bound. If I make 1 SP mule on an account using MCT, I can give my main 1.6M SP per month (80% of 2M) extra. If I have 2 SP mules, my main gets 3.2M SP per month extra. The only upper bound is real money, and someone with lots of money can easily "out-perform" someone who is just playing the game without paying extra money.
2. CCP has not responded to the question of how they would prevent RMT on SP. My belief is that it's not possible. Characters are "big bundles" of SP connected to accounts that can be IP tracked to determined if they've switched hands. PLEXs are cheap enough officially during Amazon sales that it hardly makes much sense to RMT PLEX in the first place. But SP will be an ubiquitous currency that will be traded everywhere. And there is nothing that stops people not currently subscribed to the game from coming in and cashing out.

First case is not pay2win mechanic by your defenition because everyone will be able to buy extractor and injector on maket without any RL money involved.
In second case I can't understand why cashing out is problem for you. They will dump injectors into market hence price will drop(so it also benifitial for not paying players). Or it just lowing peasure on supply which means same thing.

Sibyyl wrote:

1. SP mules making passive income on countless accounts
2. People blowing away the max 2700 SP per hour limit. Now there is no upper limit so characters could gain as much SP as they want per hour, because sky's the limit for an IRL rich player
3. Large alliances will be able to afford SP packets for their rookie line members. Small alliance won't be able to.
4. Instant gratification for Alliance Tournament participation. Cash in SPs and enlist as a contender (maybe Elise considers to be a good thing). Can you see how this will be abused when combined with #3?
5. People un-biomassing old characters to cash in on SPs.
6. EVE quitters subscribing for 1 month to cash in on SPs.
7. RMT RMT RMT RMT RMT
8. Awoxers, corp thieves, spies recycled with only a 20% hit in SPs
9. It will perpetuate the myth that SPs make you win EVE to people who will fork out money to chase this myth. This will be one of the biggest exploits that rookies will face coming into EVE, and when they realize SPs don't make them good players they will quit.


1.First you need to purshe for PLEX so it not so profitable as you might think at first sight.
2. Rich people can buy everything righy now, even titan toon without SP trading system. But it doesn't matter much becase he will be blown up without playing experience and support of people from allince.
3.Join if not able to defeat.
4.Can't understand that.
5.SP is assert. Transfering asserts is not abusing.
6.Same thing.
7.Don't know much about that but people who buying stuff with RL money already mentioned.
8.Good for them. More drama, pirates and spies stories. Every story need antogonist. It would be funny when corp will boosting spies and thievs. So maybe because of that they wont boost every rookie.
9.Will see

Sibyyl wrote:

Part 2: SP Trading devalues characters.

EVE is a personality game. Our personalities are tied to characters, whether or not we admit it to ourselves. Chribba is unmistakably Chribba and no one else has the reputation he does. The reason why just about every CSM member and Chribba are against SP Trading is because SP Trading modularizes a character.

The argument is that the character is simply the sum of its parts. Deconstruct and reconstruct SPs and functionally you have the same thing.

A character is more than the sum of its parts, and in order for the idea of a character retaining value, the SPs it has trained have to remain "trapped" inside that character. Why? Because everything else the character does is also "trapped" inside that character.. the metagaming choices she's made, the history she has with others, the Corps she's joined, the ships she has destroyed. None of these things can be wiped out because I believe we have an unspoken agreement that in EVE what's happened to a character is something they keep for the rest of their life. How can Skill Points, which is the most fundamental non-meta mechanic in the game, suddenly be divorced from characters wholesale without devaluing characters themselves?

The argument is that if you don't like your skills, and you want a different skillset, then go to the Bazaar and buy another character. But in doing so you have to sacrifice the reputation and the name of the character you have now.. the one you don't like so much. A character's race and gender have massive significance inside the EVE roleplaying community. A character's name has massive significance in all of EVE's communities. These character qualities are part of an important sacrifice that is missing in SP Trading, and simply putting a higher ISK/SP price on it is missing the point.

Actually my charachter will be more valuble for me when I will be able to pump SP into because I have character which I like and SP points which I need. So it will be meaning more than char without skill and char without personality.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#3400 - 2015-10-19 00:55:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Delegate wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
This is being done pure and simply for profit, whether you like it or not and like i said before you really think it will stay if they can make yet another whole new revenue stream from another added F2P feature of microtransactions that hit at a core principal of the game they said would never alter.


My personal take on this proposal is that CCP find itself increasingly out of options to maintain the revenue stream. I personally would prefer paying higher sub price, than witnessing this SP market go online.



No matter what shape or form, SP trading is cancer for Eve. But with my proposal (on pg.156 of this thread), it's not deadly cancer. It's cancer that Eve can live with.

In it's current form the cancer is already at stage 3 and Eve will rot within a year.