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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3361 - 2015-10-18 22:04:39 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
I think that is the take away from CCP Terminus' post about the character bazaar (25,000 or so characters bought and sold/year, most of them new customers)


How did you infer the "most of them new customers" part?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#3362 - 2015-10-18 22:07:20 UTC
Delegate wrote:
How did you infer the "most of them new customers" part?

CCP Terminus wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:

Roughly 70 characters are traded per day, not per month. Something like 25000 a year give or take.

Some more data:
- Most traded characters are 50 million SP or lower.
- A good portion of trades are to newer players (measured by new customers not just new accounts).


Are you able to distinguish new accounts from alt accounts?


Not perfectly but yes, that's what measured by new customers not just new accounts implies.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3363 - 2015-10-18 22:09:05 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
(vi) Pro: [SP] Not limited to scarcity. No upper limit on SPs being generated. Bazaar characters of all different kinds of professions can be found, but good characters are scarce. SPs will always be available. To give an analogue, in Bazaar Logistics V will not always be available at the price point or package (ie: character) you want. However, SPs will always be available on market, and always at bargain basement prices due to the nature of one-click-buy market goods.


Not entirely true.

Let N be the sum total of characters in Eve with more than 5 million SP. Let K be the sum total of SP of these N characters. The total number of SP that could, in theory make it onto the market is:

K - N*5,000,000.

That is the upper limit on SP that could find its way into the market.

In reality we will probably never see that number on the market.

Thus, there is going to be a limit.

The fact, that over time more and more SP are being generated does not imply non-scarcity. After we are growing more food as time goes by how can there ever be starvation and malnutrition?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#3364 - 2015-10-18 22:09:23 UTC
Delegate wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I think that is the take away from CCP Terminus' post about the character bazaar (25,000 or so characters bought and sold/year, most of them new customers)


How did you infer the "most of them new customers" part?


CCP Terminus wrote:
Roughly 70 characters are traded per day, not per month. Something like 25000 a year give or take.

Some more data:
- Most traded characters are 50 million SP or lower.
- A good portion of trades are to newer players (measured by new customers not just new accounts).


Mr Epeen Cool
Maekchu
Doomheim
#3365 - 2015-10-18 22:13:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Maekchu
Sibyyl wrote:
Part 2: SP Trading devalues characters.

EVE is a personality game. Our personalities are tied to characters, whether or not we admit it to ourselves. Chribba is unmistakably Chribba and no one else has the reputation he does. The reason why just about every CSM member and Chribba are against SP Trading is because SP Trading modularizes a character.

I'm just going to address this point, since I feel the others have already been counter-argued.

It is true, that EvE attempts to have players build characters and personalities. EvE have indeed spawned many in-game celebrities like, Chribba, The Mittani, James 315, etc.

But none of these players have become popular because of their SP pools. It is the deeds and their reputation that have made them popular. I don't think anyone have become popular because of SP alone, so I don't see how this change would devalue a character. The "value/reputation" of a character is still based on its deeds and actions, and not the possibility to inject some extra SP into their skill queue.
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3366 - 2015-10-18 22:14:01 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Delegate wrote:
How did you infer the "most of them new customers" part?

CCP Terminus wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:

Roughly 70 characters are traded per day, not per month. Something like 25000 a year give or take.

Some more data:
- Most traded characters are 50 million SP or lower.
- A good portion of trades are to newer players (measured by new customers not just new accounts).


Are you able to distinguish new accounts from alt accounts?


Not perfectly but yes, that's what measured by new customers not just new accounts implies.


What I'm reading here is "good portion". What is "good portion"? 10%? 15%? most? 90%? So again, how do you infer "most of them new customers"?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3367 - 2015-10-18 22:16:24 UTC
@Sibyyl

Funny thing about the cons of the Baraar:
(A) is irrelevant for buyers with existing social connections, benefiting established players over new ones, like we need more of that.
(B)-(F) seem pretty irrelevant, you either accept the characters features and function or not, and if you do these aren't an issue.
(G),(J) I'm not sure what the "con" is there. That there is a cost to doing business imposed by CCP?
(H) Again, not sure what the issue is in itself. If anything this seems to work against (A) as the transfer of ownership is public.
(K), (L) So it seems we're using being more of a pain in the Bazaar as a defense against this system? Seems more like an endorsement to me.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3368 - 2015-10-18 22:19:05 UTC

Teckos Pech wrote:


Not entirely true.

Let N be the sum total of characters in Eve with more than 5 million SP. Let K be the sum total of SP of these N characters. The total number of SP that could, in theory make it onto the market is:

K - N*5,000,000.

That is the upper limit on SP that could find its way into the market.

In reality we will probably never see that number on the market.

Thus, there is going to be a limit.

The fact, that over time more and more SP are being generated does not imply non-scarcity. After we are growing more food as time goes by how can there ever be starvation and malnutrition?


Pay to win means no upper limit. That's the point. The limit only exists to RL poor players.

Starvation exists because of politics and logistics. Neither of those affects the EVE market in any way.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3369 - 2015-10-18 22:19:37 UTC
General Lootit wrote:


Mike, what personal reasone you have to dislike this idea? How it will affects you personally?[/quote]

Actually I do not see how it affects me directly, if that is what you mean. But I tend to look beyond myself when considering changes to Eve. Kind of why I am on the CSM. Not just to feather my own nest.

As I said in the long quote . . . it will change the dynamic and the flavour of the game. If sold or marketed incorrectly it WILL look like a money grab where it is a subscription game that also needs microtransactions to stay current. I spoke about this on Podside, last night, about the financial divide it may create between the poor and the rich. I was told the solution was not to be 'poor'.

What about the divide between the casual and the hardcore?

Mainly I am trying to figure out WHO this is for and who it benefits.

any ideas?

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3370 - 2015-10-18 22:23:32 UTC

Maekchu wrote:
I'm just going to address this point, since I feel the others have already been counter-argued.

It is true, that EvE attempts to have players build characters and personalities. EvE have indeed spawned many in-game celebrities like, Chribba, The Mittani, James 315, etc.

But none of these players have become popular because of their SP pools. It is the deeds and their reputation that have made them popular. I don't think anyone have become popular because of SP alone, so I don't see how this change would devalue a character. The "value/reputation" of a character is still based on its deeds and actions, and not the possibility to inject some extra SP into their skill queue.


Interchagability is a slippery slope. Today it's SPs. Tomorrow it's character and Corp names. Day after it's race and gender.

It's not SP alone that's made these characters popular, but SP has a contribution. It's not like we know Chribba for his solo PVP mastery, or Chessur for his hisec mining dread. Their specifically allocated skill points have turned them into the characters we know today. Trying to divorce the SP from the character is a mistake.. it is the same mistake CCP is making.



And no, none of my other points have been counter-argued. But feel free to try.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#3371 - 2015-10-18 22:24:54 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Pay to win means no upper limit. That's the point. The limit only exists to RL poor players.

Starvation exists because of politics and logistics. Neither of those affects the EVE market in any way.

It would be true, that this would be P2W if there did not exists a cap on skills.

Luckily, it is the case, that you can only be so great "skill-wise" when you pilot each ship. A huge amount of SP dumped on one character is useless, since you will never be able to use these skills for one task. You will be able to do many things, but each thing you do, is still on par with a specialized character.

This, combined with how EvE combat works have already proven, that this is really not P2W. It is pay to progress, giving people the option to more rapidly get the skills they desire for a fee. Since these skill points, have been extracted from other characters, the total SP amount is the same or less within the game.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3372 - 2015-10-18 22:25:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Sibyyl
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
@Sibyyl

Funny thing about the cons of the Baraar:
(A) is irrelevant for buyers with existing social connections, benefiting established players over new ones, like we need more of that.
(B)-(F) seem pretty irrelevant, you either accept the characters features and function or not, and if you do these aren't an issue.
(G),(J) I'm not sure what the "con" is there. That there is a cost to doing business imposed by CCP?
(H) Again, not sure what the issue is in itself. If anything this seems to work against (A) as the transfer of ownership is public.
(K), (L) So it seems we're using being more of a pain in the Bazaar as a defense against this system? Seems more like an endorsement to me.


Saying these are not cons is not enough.

Put your feet in the fire and give me arguments as to why these aren't cons.

Edit: Let me be clear. "Pain" is not a defense of anything. We are arguing a system with Pros and Cons. My point is besides the ISK cost, SP Trading has no cons. Putting a higher ISK cost on a notoriously pay to win mechanism is not a Con at all.

And what you're calling "pain" is what I call expected logistics of playing EVE. Are you sure you're an EVE player?

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3373 - 2015-10-18 22:28:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
Mike Azariah wrote:
...

Actually I do not see how it affects me directly, if that is what you mean. But I tend to look beyond myself when considering changes to Eve. Kind of why I am on the CSM. Not just to feather my own nest.

As I said in the long quote . . . it will change the dynamic and the flavour of the game. If sold or marketed incorrectly it WILL look like a money grab where it is a subscription game that also needs microtransactions to stay current. I spoke about this on Podside, last night, about the financial divide it may create between the poor and the rich. I was told the solution was not to be 'poor'.

What about the divide between the casual and the hardcore?

Mainly I am trying to figure out WHO this is for and who it benefits.

any ideas?

m


Almost certainly not the new players unless the lay out a reasonable sum of RL cash. It makes me feel very uncomfortable about the whole thing.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3374 - 2015-10-18 22:28:55 UTC

Maekchu wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:

Pay to win means no upper limit. That's the point. The limit only exists to RL poor players.

Starvation exists because of politics and logistics. Neither of those affects the EVE market in any way.

It would be true, that this would be P2W if there did not exists a cap on skills.

Luckily, it is the case, that you can only be so great "skill-wise" when you pilot each ship. A huge amount of SP dumped on one character is useless, since you will never be able to use these skills for one task. You will be able to do many things, but each thing you do, is still on par with a specialized character.

This, combined with how EvE combat works have already proven, that this is really not P2W. It is pay to progress, giving people the option to more rapidly get the skills they desire for a fee. Since these skill points, have been extracted from other characters, the total SP amount is the same or less within the game.


I'll flip the argument on you. If you think SP is completely irrelevant to gameplay, why are you arguing in favor of a new mechanic for trading SPs?

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
darkchild's corpse
Rens Nursing Home
#3375 - 2015-10-18 22:30:49 UTC  |  Edited by: darkchild's corpse
Mike Azariah wrote:


Mainly I am trying to figure out WHO this is for and who it benefits.

any ideas?

m


in my opinion two kind of ppl will benefit from this.

1. thiefes, spys, ppl with bad reputation. they can recycle their character into one or several new ones and can play without caring about the consequences of their actions wich is in my opinion a break with a core principle of eve.

2. ppl (probably older players) who need to be able to use something quickly. a cynodude, a logidude, a scandude... whatever. if there is no time to wait for a fitting character on the bazaar, grab some money and create whatever you need. wich (in my opinion) also breaks with a core principle. as i already said, the whole point of skills and skillpoints is that you're not meant to learn something new instantly.

new players will probably not benefit. they will buy skillpoints and then realize that they don't understand the game anyways.


oh wait... and ccp will benefit... more moneh (more moneh for ccp is a good idea but not this way please)

Kinda suits the SP trading discussion (lyrics in description)
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3376 - 2015-10-18 22:34:39 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Part 4: SP Trading will be abused.

Let me list the ways:
1. SP mules making passive income on countless accounts
2. People blowing away the max 2700 SP per hour limit. Now there is no upper limit so characters could gain as much SP as they want per hour, because sky's the limit for an IRL rich player
3. Large alliances will be able to afford SP packets for their rookie line members. Small alliance won't be able to.
4. Instant gratification for Alliance Tournament participation. Cash in SPs and enlist as a contender (maybe Elise considers to be a good thing). Can you see how this will be abused when combined with #3?
5. People un-biomassing old characters to cash in on SPs.
6. EVE quitters subscribing for 1 month to cash in on SPs.
7. RMT RMT RMT RMT RMT
8. Awoxers, corp thieves, spies recycled with only a 20% hit in SPs
9. It will perpetuate the myth that SPs make you win EVE to people who will fork out money to chase this myth. This will be one of the biggest exploits that rookies will face coming into EVE, and when they realize SPs don't make them good players they will quit.

(1) If this becomes as terribly widespread as claimed I can't see the price of SP hovering too much above the cost of the extractor, especially when accounts which have other means of generating plex are factored in (PI/Mining fleet accounts/etc). These accounts not needing to fund the account on SP alone and the resulting possible drop in price of SP could well lead to SP farm accounts not being sustainable on their own returns. Or not, who knows.
(2) This is an issue why?
(3) What large alliances can provide is already different in scale.
(4) We have participants vetted by skill over SP, not seeing the problem.
(5), (6) So we have a small spike between that and current subscribers trimming accounts, making the packets initial high price likely drop quickly assisting with accessibility, an overall positive. Room for abuse, but just needs policy vetted beforehand (unbiomassed characters cannot use extractors/etc)
(7) From who? Buyers or sellers? Sellers unlikely since a functioning legal market without repercussion exists, buyers for the same reasons, unless insinuating that sellers are using it to create isk reserves for sale, but the Bazaar can hold the same function.
(8) Are we assuming these roles train to 50m SP? Are we further assuming the 100+ extractors to transfer SP will be viewed as a trivial expense regularly?
(9)Considering that this notion already has players looking at multi-billion purchases that disassociate themselves with their chosen identities reducing the overhead and strengthening their character investment seems like an overall positive.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#3377 - 2015-10-18 22:34:59 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:

Mainly I am trying to figure out WHO this is for and who it benefits.

any ideas?

m

I think, this will mainly attract people who already have friends playing EvE and wants to join whatever they are doing.

I'll continue to elaborate my failed attempt to get some IRL friends to join EvE. I mainly do frigate PvP in EvE, and the idea was that they'd join up and we'd roam around in frigates. But even with frigates, there is still at least maybe a week or two of training time. The activities they did in the meantime, while waiting for these core skills to get trained, was not enough to keep them hooked on EvE.

This change would give the possibility of getting them more quickly above the initial skill barrier, and out doing frigate PvP.

I also think, this will somewhat attract people who are subbing and making enough in-game ISK, that they could see this SP injection item as being a realistic goal to aim at. Keeping them motivated to get out in space and farm ISK.
Rammix
TheMurk
#3378 - 2015-10-18 22:39:26 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:

Go back and read your own devblog - give us ways to rename our characters and reskin them, and we will pay you to let us do it. But keep away from things that affect gameplay, because we remember, and Greed is Not Good.

This.

I'm absolutely against the OP's idea.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Maekchu
Doomheim
#3379 - 2015-10-18 22:40:03 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

I'll flip the argument on you. If you think SP is completely irrelevant to gameplay, why are you arguing in favor of a new mechanic for trading SPs?

I am actually an advocate of completely removing skills, and letting ISK alone decide on what assets you fly and possess.

However, the game would need a complete overhaul in order for such a system to work. So I think this SP trading system, is a decent middle-ground. It gives the possibility for new players to skip some training, hopefully getting them faster into whatever activity they enjoy.

I simply don't believe the SP queue is a fun game mechanic. The fun in EvE lies in the interaction between players, not in waiting for a digital bar to fill up.
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#3380 - 2015-10-18 22:42:34 UTC
I have removed some off-topic posts and replies quoting them.

Quote:
27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

ISD Decoy

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

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