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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#3301 - 2015-10-18 20:57:01 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
tl;dr of this dev blog:

You'll be able to trade ISK for SP.

So nothing that you couldn't do on Character Bazaar before. Yet it somehow offends many of the bittervets, even people who I held in high regard, like Ripard Teg. Probably because conversion rates are basically useless for bittervets (I personally belong in >80M SP category as well but I shed no tears).

First thing, bittervets shouldn't be so greedy about their SP and could instead use this new feature to make new alts and quickly train them up.

Second thing,skill trading isn't going to turn EVE into a Pay2Win game...now, I wasn't around when PLEX was introduced, but I can bet on both my arms and legs that it caused a huge outrcy from people who did their best to convince everyone that PLEX is going to turn EVE into (another) Pay2Win, instant gratification game.

If there's one thing that I think it's bad for the future of EVE, that would be ever-rising PLEX prices. Why? Because they are driving new players away. When I started playing in 2011, PLEX was around 400 millions and grinding for enough ISK to PLEX your account was acceptable deal to much greater percentage of newer players than it is today. Of course, nobody ever had to grind for ISK, but "pay to play" MMOs are outdated and that concept isn't going to attract many new players.

So move along, nothing to see here.


Incorrect. You were able to buy characters with higher sp. You were not able to buy sp for a char. kktnxbye.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3302 - 2015-10-18 20:57:58 UTC
Sean Crees wrote:

How are you going to treat people that are currently in this state, where they have skills injected and trained but don't have the support skills for them?

You can't put SP in it until all required skills are trained. I had some free SP when Vanguard came.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Dave Stark
#3303 - 2015-10-18 20:58:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
to be fair, i think this thread is done now. for the last like 150 pages there has been 0 discussion of the devblog as people have had to have basic and irrelevant concepts explaining to them.



Actually there have been plenty of solid concerns and side effects. And sh*tload of trolling done by you and couple more. Wish CCP had actually tried to improve the forums. Or they are doing it in the same way they are doing it for the game :D

Edit: no 5 in forum rules is that trolling is prohibited. I understand that there is quite a work here with 160 pages of text but if mods have checked it earlier they could have easily stopped it. So, mods please do your work.


mate, i just posted a better argument against this idea than anyone has done so far. i'm not even against it. you guys need to get yourselves together.


Weird way of not having anything against it, posting hundreds of post trying to challenge/manipulate those who are against it :D


i'm not for or against it - trading SP already exists. if people are really that assblasted about CCP wanting to make it less obtuse then vOv.

we don't gain anything we haven't already got if they do add it, and if they do add it it just makes it less hassle for those that already do it.

i mainly came here to see why people were so negative about it on eve-o since everywhere else hasn't even been close to this level of negativity about it. after like 3 days i still haven't seen any real reasons why people would be that negative about it other than "they don't like it".
Linc0ln Stern
Dark Dirty Rotten Scoundrel
#3304 - 2015-10-18 21:00:06 UTC
I don't generally post on forums but here it is, this is not a good move. There are some good things you guys at CCP have done. I applaud you for your hard work. Fozzie sov, hasn't been grand and here your about to make another mistake. you will continue with idea's like this and if you implement this your going to lose a large chunk of your loyal PAYING Players. I myself have 2 accounts which I have enjoyed this game for seven long years. Implement this and I and many like minded players will un subscribe. That is two pay accounts so that's 40 a month from one person not to mention the occasional plex I buy to boost for my pvp pleasure. Is money that easy to come by for any business? There are things that make this game what it is training mistakes are one of them, also career changes in the game. I'm sharing my feed back on saying no to mont'e hall. The next move is yours CCP. This is a very bad Idea.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#3305 - 2015-10-18 21:01:48 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Thanks for admitting you did not read it. Gives a lot to your credibility ;)



uh, i just told you i read it? did you not read what i wrote?

i read the bit before you went on a complete and irrelevant tangent for 2 pages (i know that because i skimmed the other 2 pages to be sure).


1 of 3? Irrelevant to the topic? Maybe for you this topic consists of only simple yes/no for this change. I have went much deeper and explained through whole business model. Since, you know, this is a business, which creates CCP A LOT of money. So pointing flaws this brings to that business is quite relevant and on topic. Skimmed does not equal read.

But no worries, I did not really expect from you to come with counter arguments for what I have wrote anyway :) Majority of us here already figured out your "play" :)

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Dave Stark
#3306 - 2015-10-18 21:01:52 UTC
Linc0ln Stern wrote:
PAYING Players.


funfact; everyone pays to play eve. it's a subscription game.

except a few bloggers, iirc there's a system where they get their subs paid for being awesome at that.
Dave Stark
#3307 - 2015-10-18 21:02:39 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Thanks for admitting you did not read it. Gives a lot to your credibility ;)



uh, i just told you i read it? did you not read what i wrote?

i read the bit before you went on a complete and irrelevant tangent for 2 pages (i know that because i skimmed the other 2 pages to be sure).


1 of 3? Irrelevant to the topic? Maybe for you this topic consists of only simple yes/no for this change. I have went much deeper and explained through whole business model. Since, you know, this is a business, which creates CCP A LOT of money. So pointing flaws this brings to that business is quite relevant and on topic. Skimmed does not equal read.

But no worries, I did not really expect from you to come with counter arguments for what I have wrote anyway :) Majority of us here already figured out your "play" :)


ccp's business model is irrelevant to the discussion. they want feedback on this idea, not how to manage their financials.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3308 - 2015-10-18 21:04:47 UTC
Sean Crees wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:
Scott Ormands wrote:
On one hand im excited to get back the 3m sp wasted in mining on a carrier toon, on the other what is to stop me from trainging a command ship and then extracting all the boosting skills, so to speak. in that way i could still fly the command ship but would have gotten my boosting skills transfered into some other skill or sold for isk. its a way to beat the prereq system for almost anything.


The current plan is to not allow skillpoints to be extracted from skills that are requirements of other skills. So in your example you would have to remove the Command Ships skill before you could remove any prerequisite skills like Armored Warfare.
We also plan on having this be something you can only do in stations, so you wouldn't be stuck in in space in a ship you can no longer fly.


How are you going to treat people that are currently in this state, where they have skills injected and trained but don't have the support skills for them? Is the server just going to keep track of each exception and allow that exception to continue but not allow new exceptions? Or will the pre-req skills be filled with the needed SP? Or will the skill stop working?
Why would there be any need to treat people with grandfathered skills any differently or exceptions to be tracked. If you don't have current prereqs then you can't extract SP from them as you don't have them, similarly if you did have current prereqs you wouldn't be able to extract SP from them as they were needed for a dependent skill. There is nothing to change or track either way.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#3309 - 2015-10-18 21:05:30 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Once this goes live I will be accepting SP pack donations for my Make Don ZOLA cry drive. The only thing he cares about is SP and I intend to acquire more than him.

I won't lie to you folks. I'm at under 60 k SP right now so it'll take some dedication on your part. But if we all pull together on this you will see forum rage as you never have before.

Mr Epeen Cool


You do not have to worry, Don ZOLA will either quit or remain inactive. If I have cared about SP only this would be great for me since I do have tons of isk and sp on alts I can use to boost my sp. So you are quite wrong :shocker:, like with everything you have posted here ;)

Trolling alts cannot make me cry :)

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3310 - 2015-10-18 21:06:46 UTC
Maekchu wrote:
...
They were most positive about the fact, that newbies will have an additional goal to work towards. Meaning, one more reason to actually undock and do something, instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked while the skill queue is running.


Then you've been telling newbies the wrong things as I was in space making ISK from day one whilst learning ways to do and make more.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#3311 - 2015-10-18 21:06:51 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Once this goes live I will be accepting SP pack donations for my Make Don ZOLA cry drive. The only thing he cares about is SP and I intend to acquire more than him.

I won't lie to you folks. I'm at under 60 k SP right now so it'll take some dedication on your part. But if we all pull together on this you will see forum rage as you never have before.

Mr Epeen


he's in a win/win situation though.

either CCP won't add the system or it'll kill eve and we won't be able to donate to you :(


I do not see dead eve as win option for anyone, maybe someone butthurt by the game or devs can see it that way :|

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3312 - 2015-10-18 21:07:13 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
to be fair, i think this thread is done now. for the last like 150 pages there has been 0 discussion of the devblog as people have had to have basic and irrelevant concepts explaining to them.



Actually there have been plenty of solid concerns and side effects. And sh*tload of trolling done by you and couple more. Wish CCP had actually tried to improve the forums. Or they are doing it in the same way they are doing it for the game :D

Edit: no 5 in forum rules is that trolling is prohibited. I understand that there is quite a work here with 160 pages of text but if mods have checked it earlier they could have easily stopped it. So, mods please do your work.


mate, i just posted a better argument against this idea than anyone has done so far. i'm not even against it. you guys need to get yourselves together.


Weird way of not having anything against it, posting hundreds of post trying to challenge/manipulate those who are against it :D


i'm not for or against it - trading SP already exists. if people are really that assblasted about CCP wanting to make it less obtuse then vOv.

we don't gain anything we haven't already got if they do add it, and if they do add it it just makes it less hassle for those that already do it.

i mainly came here to see why people were so negative about it on eve-o since everywhere else hasn't even been close to this level of negativity about it. after like 3 days i still haven't seen any real reasons why people would be that negative about it other than "they don't like it".

because they actually see that a bazaar toon is nothing like raw skillpoints for cash being sold is an afront to what eve stood for originally, dont bother me either way i wont delete anything or sell it but if i find something now to replace it makes it alot easier to move over to than a world class MMO filling up with F2P shite rooking players left right and centre.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3313 - 2015-10-18 21:08:22 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Incorrect. You were able to buy characters with higher sp. You were not able to buy sp for a char. kktnxbye.
I can't help but feel that if this were an appreciable difference people wouldn't use the Bazaar. As it stands, the fact that it isn't character x instead of y doesn't get in the way of using character y for whatever you bought them for.
Dave Stark
#3314 - 2015-10-18 21:08:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Sean Crees wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:
Scott Ormands wrote:
On one hand im excited to get back the 3m sp wasted in mining on a carrier toon, on the other what is to stop me from trainging a command ship and then extracting all the boosting skills, so to speak. in that way i could still fly the command ship but would have gotten my boosting skills transfered into some other skill or sold for isk. its a way to beat the prereq system for almost anything.


The current plan is to not allow skillpoints to be extracted from skills that are requirements of other skills. So in your example you would have to remove the Command Ships skill before you could remove any prerequisite skills like Armored Warfare.
We also plan on having this be something you can only do in stations, so you wouldn't be stuck in in space in a ship you can no longer fly.


How are you going to treat people that are currently in this state, where they have skills injected and trained but don't have the support skills for them? Is the server just going to keep track of each exception and allow that exception to continue but not allow new exceptions? Or will the pre-req skills be filled with the needed SP? Or will the skill stop working?
Why would there be any need to treat people with grandfathered skills any differently or exceptions to be tracked. If you don't have current prereqs then you can't extract SP from them as you don't have them, similarly if you did have current prereqs you wouldn't be able to extract SP from them as they were needed for a dependent skill. There is nothing to change or track either way.


because what happens when you remove all the SP from astrogeology V, and then want to remove it from mining IV also?

if you remove SP from mining IV, and no longer train astrogeology? if so that'll affect grandfathered players.
or, will you not be able to remove more SP from mining IV as it's a prerequisite for an injected skill? you can't remove a skill once it's injected.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#3315 - 2015-10-18 21:09:55 UTC
Maekchu wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:

There is. They cannot overtake top players. Already mentioned numerous time. And you cannot increase sp on one char, you can just change the char. But since you are in Dave`s club, with totally same posting attitude, I am not surprised you say it :)

"Overtake" top players...? SP is a meaningless metric for assessing character power.

I know you have stated that you don't care about you position on some list with top SP players, but statements like the above proves otherwise. You have an interest in keeping this feature out of the game, since it would challenge your standing on this list.

While there have been some other valid arguments against the feature (the most valid being, people feeling SP boosting is a must). I still think the arguments supporting the implementation outweigh the ones against.

It is a valid concern, that new player could avoid EvE, because they get the impression that you need to invest X amount of IRL money in order to even do anything. However, given that the character bazaar already exists, I don't think this concern is too justified.

On the other hand, I personally have had difficulties convincing friends to start EvE, cause they don't like that they have to wait maybe a week or two before they feel viable. I've talked with them, regarding this proposed feature and their response is very positive.

They were most positive about the fact, that newbies will have an additional goal to work towards. Meaning, one more reason to actually undock and do something, instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked while the skill queue is running.


I am not among top players to be influenced by this. Yet I do feel they should not lose their positions.

You are viable as soon as you want to. Everything else is excuse. I am sure your friends will not stick for long since after couple of first mil sp they purchase they will have to wait again to be "more viable" etc. Unless they want to spend a lot of cash and then they could have already purchase plexes and buy chars...

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Dave Stark
#3316 - 2015-10-18 21:10:47 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
because they actually see that a bazaar toon is nothing like raw skillpoints for cash being sold is an afront to what eve stood for originally, dont bother me either way i wont delete anything or sell it but if i find something now to replace it makes it alot easier to move over to than a world class MMO filling up with F2P shite rooking players left right and centre.


there have been bigger affronts to what eve stands for than buying and selling SP.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3317 - 2015-10-18 21:11:55 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Maekchu wrote:

They were most positive about the fact, that newbies will have an additional goal to work towards. Meaning, one more reason to actually undock and do something, instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked while the skill queue is running.

That my personal reason why I keeps supporting devs idea.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3318 - 2015-10-18 21:13:45 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
because what happens when you remove all the SP from astrogeology V, and then want to remove it from mining IV also?

if you remove SP from mining IV, and no longer train astrogeology? if so that'll affect grandfathered players.
or, will you not be able to remove more SP from mining IV as it's a prerequisite for an injected skill?
How would you remove the SP from Mining IV when you still have astrogeology? Unless astrogeology is removed extracting SP from mining that would lower it to under lvl IV should be impossible as stated since the prereqs state it's needed to inject the skill, whether chosing to train it or not.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#3319 - 2015-10-18 21:13:47 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
to be fair, i think this thread is done now. for the last like 150 pages there has been 0 discussion of the devblog as people have had to have basic and irrelevant concepts explaining to them.



Actually there have been plenty of solid concerns and side effects. And sh*tload of trolling done by you and couple more. Wish CCP had actually tried to improve the forums. Or they are doing it in the same way they are doing it for the game :D

Edit: no 5 in forum rules is that trolling is prohibited. I understand that there is quite a work here with 160 pages of text but if mods have checked it earlier they could have easily stopped it. So, mods please do your work.


mate, i just posted a better argument against this idea than anyone has done so far. i'm not even against it. you guys need to get yourselves together.


Weird way of not having anything against it, posting hundreds of post trying to challenge/manipulate those who are against it :D


i'm not for or against it - trading SP already exists. if people are really that assblasted about CCP wanting to make it less obtuse then vOv.

we don't gain anything we haven't already got if they do add it, and if they do add it it just makes it less hassle for those that already do it.

i mainly came here to see why people were so negative about it on eve-o since everywhere else hasn't even been close to this level of negativity about it. after like 3 days i still haven't seen any real reasons why people would be that negative about it other than "they don't like it".


No, trading chars exist and guess what, it is different to trading sp. And that is what we gain, no matter how many times you repeat we dont ;)

Quite interesting, out of simple curiosity you have spent 3 days, hundreds of posts without contributing much to real discussion but simply manipulating and taking things out of the context, without even reading all and making noise about "no big deal". Wish i had so much free time to waste for something I do not care much about :D

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3320 - 2015-10-18 21:15:12 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Maekchu wrote:

They were most positive about the fact, that newbies will have an additional goal to work towards. Meaning, one more reason to actually undock and do something, instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked while the skill queue is running.

That my personal reason why I keeps supporting this idea.


Yeah thats it, 330m per 500,000 sp's ..... so wheres the newguy going to go to earn that oh yeah ill buy some plex Roll

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”