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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Dave Stark
#3281 - 2015-10-18 20:26:00 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Then he can sanction you in accordance to forum rules.


pointing out that you're wrong isn't against the forum rules.
Dave Stark
#3282 - 2015-10-18 20:29:59 UTC
Delegate wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
yeah, just seen that. not sure how i missed it the other day.


I very much doubt you missed it.


well clearly i did. not quite sure how you can doubt something that's that obviously true.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#3283 - 2015-10-18 20:31:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Dave Stark wrote:
BirdStrike wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
I'm going to make a better argument against this new proposal than has been seen in the first 165 pages of this thread.

you can use this system to "bypass" prerequisites for ships. you can train the prerequisites for say, command ships, then extract all the leadership SP and still fly them.

there needs to be a check to ensure that you cannot extract sp from skills where you have trained something that requires the skill you are trying to extract.


Its already there, look up the dependency requirements for any skill. It lists the pre-requisite skill tree you need to unlock to train those skills with ticks for ones you meet. There are lots of examples where you need more than one skill to use a given/ship module so its trivial for CCP to simply invalidate that skill if you remove the underlying dependency.


yep, some one just pointed me to it.

Were you not spamming the forum telling everyone that they haven't read or understood the devblog and shouldn't post unitl they do?.....

Ever occur to you to take your own advice? You clearly haven't thought about this as thoroughly as you seem to think.
Dave Stark
#3284 - 2015-10-18 20:33:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Moac Tor wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
BirdStrike wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
I'm going to make a better argument against this new proposal than has been seen in the first 165 pages of this thread.

you can use this system to "bypass" prerequisites for ships. you can train the prerequisites for say, command ships, then extract all the leadership SP and still fly them.

there needs to be a check to ensure that you cannot extract sp from skills where you have trained something that requires the skill you are trying to extract.


Its already there, look up the dependency requirements for any skill. It lists the pre-requisite skill tree you need to unlock to train those skills with ticks for ones you meet. There are lots of examples where you need more than one skill to use a given/ship module so its trivial for CCP to simply invalidate that skill if you remove the underlying dependency.


yep, some one just pointed me to it.

Were you not spamming the forum telling everyone that they haven't read or understood the devblog and shouldn't post unitl they do?...


no, i was telling them if they'd have read the devblog they wouldn't need to ask me questions that had already been explained there.

what i didn't know, i didn't know because it WASN'T part of the devblog, it was a dev post. one that somehow i hadn't seen. i'd seen the prior and later dev posts but not that one. it must have been posted during the night, i assume.

devblogs really should be updated with additional information from dev posts. it should all be in one location.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#3285 - 2015-10-18 20:33:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Don ZOLA
Public Relation wrote:
BirdStrike wrote:
Public Relation wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Public Relation wrote:

Worse then skill point trading are Plex. For someone with enough money, Plex = instant unlimited amount of isk, if you are bright enough you will understand the full consequence for any parties in EvE to have access to unlimited ressources with absolutly no risk.

Only because someone wont or can't earn isk we can have free sub. When someone dumping PLEXes into the game market price droping which also beneficial for players.



I am not debating the right or wrong of plex, i am just stating that EvE have already been prone to the so call "pay to win" syndrome with plex and character bazar.

Skill point trading is nothing worse or better, it wont change nothing in the end regarding "pay to win"... But like the dev have stated it will help new player retention and thats the great thing about it.

Also my opinion on the subject of "pay to win" is simple, isk or skill point wont make you win fight, so no there is no "pay to win" only "pay to get what you want faster".


If SP doesn't make you win a fight then there is no need to implement the system or the character bazaar then is there?

Its a strawman to say you want injectable SP yet more SP doesn't help you win anything, otherwise you'd be out pwning the galaxy in your bantam with civilian gatling.

Good luck however trying to remove point from a brick tanked near 1m SP damnation with your 30dps, I'm pretty sure your out of game epeen doesn't actual help with that.



All this can be also done with time playing the game. There is nothing a playing can buy that someone cannot get playing the game normaly.

Pay to win is when someone can get an unavailable advantage without paying for it.

Player skill > character skill, that cannot be bought. I have seen player beat T2 ship with combat bonuses ship using a T1 ship with no combat bonuses, 1v1.


There is. They cannot overtake top players. Already mentioned numerous time. And you cannot increase sp on one char, you can just change the char. But since you are in Dave`s club, with totally same posting attitude, I am not surprised you say it :)

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know

Dave Stark
#3286 - 2015-10-18 20:35:52 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
There is. They cannot overtake top players. Already mentioned numerous time. But since you are in Dave`s club, with totally same posting attitude, I am not surprised you say it :)


if I have a club, does that mean I'm allowed to get T-shirts printed?
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#3287 - 2015-10-18 20:36:39 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
So I read an article on the internet and it said something along the lines of, anyone who is against this change is really just projecting their emotional insecurities and are letting their irrationalities manifest themselves because they as people have zero self-control.

But it's OK, because we, the deciders, understand you're incapable of logical thought so we know to just ignore the things you say and write your name down on The List.

Great change CCP, way to take the initiative in saving EvE.


If you keep just repeating it is a great thing it wont really make it so. You are just one of the purest trolls here, since you have nor provided any arguments, other at least try to manipulate with them.

If players are deciders, then make ingame referendum and see what the players choose. Your spam will not decide on it.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know

Terraj Oknatis
Project Sanctuary
#3288 - 2015-10-18 20:37:13 UTC
Tristan Agion wrote:
Terraj Oknatis wrote:
Thank you for your insight. Those are some really good points you are making. If i was going to give you a suggestion, Don't wait for stealth V to get out there and explore your wormholes. You have so much to gain by just going in there in a t1 exploration frig and running the sites. If you get blown up you will loose 1-2 mil a ship. However if you succeed you could be pulling down anywhere from 5-10mil a site!

Thanks. It's a bit off topic, but I was in a worm hole the next day after doing the exploration career mission as a total newbie. It was a very quiet wormhole, and I got chased off only by NPCs.

I think a pure worm hole explorer (dipping in and out from high sec) would kind of work with a T1 frigate, but you would still have to train Arch and Hack to at least IV - preferably V, to get T2 data/relic analysers. You need better virus strength and coherence to crack the difficult sites consistently...

But as explorer I don't want to just do the worm holes. To a large extent I want to use the worm holes as safe gate to null and low sec. And if you want to travel null and low sec for any length of time, sitting in a T1 explorer frigate (filled with all the loot you have gathered) is basically suicide. I also think of future "stealth combat" roles I might want to play in a corp, perhaps scouting or covert cyno or stealth bomber PVP... To get the necessary experience with this, you actually want to roam widely as cov ops, not just "explore and run back to high sec". And if you want to play around with combat probes, then it will be difficult to fit the expanded launcher with T1 frigate CPU.

Terraj Oknatis wrote:
so STAB UP and get in there and start making some isk! Chances are if your going to sp boost your character you will be draining a lot of isk/rl money on the skill points, but then you still have to buy the ships! Because your inexperienced you won't be checking D scan like you should and you will be loosing T2/asteros instead of a magnate.

One of the reasons why I am training for a T2 cov ops rather than an Astero is the price point. I expect I can get a T2 cov ops for about 30M ISK, including decent but cheap fittings. I can die 2-3 times more often in that than in an Astero at the same cost.

One problem is that one needs scan strength at about 110 for the sleeper sites (I can get limited ones with 105, but not the better kinds). Buying SoE launchers helps, but bumps up the cost massively... The alternative is once more skill training: getting Cov Ops and Astrometrics to V gives 75 bonus...


Good points. Have you tried rigs? There are cheap astronomic rigs that will boost that scan res. There are also ones that boost your virus strength. I would say rig up for scan strength and relic analyzers. I can consistently do null sec relic sites and I have terrible hacking skills. My hacking skills are at level 3 but because I have those rigs, it allows me to do them without having T2 analyzers. Eventually the level 5 skills will come in time.

For level 5 skills. Just go for frig V first. It may seem like a long train but 5 days in you will see it is only 10 days and it won't be that bad. Before you know it you can use a T2 scan frig.

I get your point on null sec. Because there is local it will be hard for a independent pilot to move around. However, you can always head down to provi block. There it is common policy to not shoot at neutrals.

This sub thread is not off topic because it is an example of the fact that you don't need high skills to find content. You just need high skills to make content more efficient. Therefore there is no need for these shenanigans.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3289 - 2015-10-18 20:37:28 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Etara Silverblade wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
When feature will be implemented then you will find out how much your skill points are worth.


Right now my skillpoints are priceless and putting a price on them cheapens my loyalty to the game and the time I spent getting those skill points.

Right now time in game equals skill points and after this is in, money will equal skill points. It's that simple and I will have none of it.

Not only RL money but isks too. Actually you will have a choice put in-game activity and earning isk with it, wait until skills are trained or pay RL money for PLEX and sell it on market to buy SP injectors. So you may continue waiting training time if you don't want to pay with isks or with money.
Luscius Uta
#3290 - 2015-10-18 20:38:16 UTC
tl;dr of this dev blog:

You'll be able to trade ISK for SP.

So nothing that you couldn't do on Character Bazaar before. Yet it somehow offends many of the bittervets, even people who I held in high regard, like Ripard Teg. Probably because conversion rates are basically useless for bittervets (I personally belong in >80M SP category as well but I shed no tears).

First thing, bittervets shouldn't be so greedy about their SP and could instead use this new feature to make new alts and quickly train them up.

Second thing,skill trading isn't going to turn EVE into a Pay2Win game...now, I wasn't around when PLEX was introduced, but I can bet on both my arms and legs that it caused a huge outrcy from people who did their best to convince everyone that PLEX is going to turn EVE into (another) Pay2Win, instant gratification game.

If there's one thing that I think it's bad for the future of EVE, that would be ever-rising PLEX prices. Why? Because they are driving new players away. When I started playing in 2011, PLEX was around 400 millions and grinding for enough ISK to PLEX your account was acceptable deal to much greater percentage of newer players than it is today. Of course, nobody ever had to grind for ISK, but "pay to play" MMOs are outdated and that concept isn't going to attract many new players.

So move along, nothing to see here.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Dave Stark
#3291 - 2015-10-18 20:39:55 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
tl;dr of this dev blog:

You'll be able to trade ISK for SP.


stop making noise, you're ignoring the facts.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3292 - 2015-10-18 20:44:32 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Luscius Uta wrote:
tl;dr of this dev blog:

You'll be able to trade ISK for SP.


stop making noise, you're ignoring the facts.


That is the basic fact of the thread. Players will be able to pay ISK for SP from other players. Everything else around that is simply dressing it up.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#3293 - 2015-10-18 20:44:42 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
[
it's no more of a cash grab than we already have.

you either buy a character - or you buy SP packets. you won't do both. it's not a new cash grab you're just moving from character transfer revenue to skill extractor/aur revenue.


Either you're a Dev alt or someone is offering you something to do this. Which is it?


nobody has to offer me anything to state a fact. the joy of knowing some one's incorrect argument fell apart because of it is payment enough.


Then I should be the happiest person on this planet after "discussion" with you and others. Btw, have you managed to read wots i wrote yet?


i got through 1 of the 3 pages then you went off on a tangent about something completely unrelated to the topic so yeah, i read that first page then replied, then you replied, and we've actually finished talking about your text based self pleasuring about 20 or so pages ago.


Thanks for admitting you did not read it. Gives a lot to your credibility ;)

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know

Dave Stark
#3294 - 2015-10-18 20:45:43 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Thanks for admitting you did not read it. Gives a lot to your credibility ;)



uh, i just told you i read it? did you not read what i wrote?

i read the bit before you went on a complete and irrelevant tangent for 2 pages (i know that because i skimmed the other 2 pages to be sure).
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3295 - 2015-10-18 20:47:02 UTC
BirdStrike wrote:
Dror wrote:
Except, support can be purchased, whether through alts or thorugh corps and alliances.

Just criticizing the newbie demographic and their slightly-reduced barrier to entry is shallow. There's a whole majority of the game that can make much more than newbies and supply their SP requirements, whether alts or recruits, for very specific roles and placements.

You're still not defining P2W, nor really investing in the ideas that come from and are prevented by SP. That's what's relevant for if newbies are any more interested in the game. They still can't be really efficient for the multiple roles that are included with this RPG, and if that's why they come (the depth of the game), even this really gate stream of improvement still has to be more interesting than all of the other games, especially which are free.


I'll define pay 2 win. Pay 2 win is having the resources at your disposal to beat any other player at any task regardless of their ability. If CCP were selling a invulnerable titan with instant recharge doomsdays that could oneshot anything in game and go to hisec, thats an example of pay 2 win.

There is no game where it'd defined like that (because there is no game where that's a factor).

BirdStrike wrote:
As for the newbs are useless argument, that's the learning curve not the sp limit. I have a new character, i was running level 4's and clocked 200m in an afternoon with less than 1.2m sp because i've done those missions so many times and know how to fit with eft, triggers and so on. I could have 5m sp injected but go wading into AE bonus room in a armor tanked golem with light missiles and lose my ship. i could lose a faction fit tengu vs a t1 neut boat...this won't do a thing to help newbros because having max sp doesnt give them any knowledge of how to fit ships, how to tank properly, or any of the other game mechanics that take months and sometimes years to learn.

If SP isn't a factor, how about removing it? It's plentifully established that the game can be learned much more efficiently than SP can train, and that honestly undermines interest and depth and strategy.

BirdStrike wrote:
The irony of the newbro argument is the nosp newbros in karmafleet, horde and brave have probably done more pvp and understand eve combat mechanics better than countless 80m vets who've never left hisec. So the assumption that if you don't have the latest t2 doctrine you can't enjoy pvp is clearly disproven by the nulsec newbros. And like motor racing, nobody puts a learner in a f1 car because they'll break it, its better for players to learn to pvp in throaway frigs and cruisers so they have the skills to use the shiny kit when they get it.

Is that why large sovereignties still hold their place? If they're only challenged with frigates, they get bored. That's shallow.

Quintessen wrote:
I think the success of this entirely depends on how it's sold. CCP could sell this as a way for new characters to catch up even if its not realistic. While this is a unique aspect of EVE, that doesn't mean that it's to its benefit. I've been around for awhile and I keep seeing the same argument against this. SP doesn't make you good, player skill does. Well I think we've always known that wasn't quite 100% true. SP has an impact on play and it's something that a new pilot can never catch up on regardless of how much they play or how well they do.

That's to EVE's detriment.

If I go an tell any new player of a sport that there is something that they can never be as good at as someone else because they arrived later, then I'm telling a lot of them to not bother. In a competitive game like this, the idea that I can be the best of the best at everything is an enticement to play and get better even for people that will likely never be competitive at that level.

Frankly this was the last hurdle for EVE breaking out of its niche. It should be possible for anyone to start a new account and become the greatest pilot in every measurable way given sufficient effort.

Right now, a pilot can become the richest person in EVE. They can become the most influential. They can amass the most territory, but they cannot get the most SP. It's the last thing and it needs to go.

What's strange for me is that I started on the other side of this. I thought it was a bad idea. Though I still think it needs tweaking so that older characters like myself get even less or no benefit which should help with the demand side of things as well. But looking back on all the arguments of real or imagined advantages of older players, I keep seeing people being discouraged from playing at all. Be it tech 2 BPOs, SP or others. And as much as I wish it weren't so, perception is reality. And that perception has been hurting EVE for a long time.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#3296 - 2015-10-18 20:48:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Once this goes live I will be accepting SP pack donations for my Make Don ZOLA cry drive. The only thing he cares about is SP and I intend to acquire more than him.

I won't lie to you folks. I'm at under 60 k SP right now so it'll take some dedication on your part. But if we all pull together on this you will see forum rage as you never have before.

Mr Epeen Cool
Sean Crees
Sean's Safe Haven
#3297 - 2015-10-18 20:50:52 UTC
CCP Terminus wrote:
Scott Ormands wrote:
On one hand im excited to get back the 3m sp wasted in mining on a carrier toon, on the other what is to stop me from trainging a command ship and then extracting all the boosting skills, so to speak. in that way i could still fly the command ship but would have gotten my boosting skills transfered into some other skill or sold for isk. its a way to beat the prereq system for almost anything.


The current plan is to not allow skillpoints to be extracted from skills that are requirements of other skills. So in your example you would have to remove the Command Ships skill before you could remove any prerequisite skills like Armored Warfare.
We also plan on having this be something you can only do in stations, so you wouldn't be stuck in in space in a ship you can no longer fly.


How are you going to treat people that are currently in this state, where they have skills injected and trained but don't have the support skills for them? Is the server just going to keep track of each exception and allow that exception to continue but not allow new exceptions? Or will the pre-req skills be filled with the needed SP? Or will the skill stop working?
Dave Stark
#3298 - 2015-10-18 20:51:58 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Once this goes live I will be accepting SP pack donations for my Make Don ZOLA cry drive. The only thing he cares about is SP and I intend to acquire more than him.

I won't lie to you folks. I'm at under 60 k SP right now so it'll take some dedication on your part. But if we all pull together on this you will see forum rage as you never have before.

Mr Epeen


he's in a win/win situation though.

either CCP won't add the system or it'll kill eve and we won't be able to donate to you :(
Maekchu
Doomheim
#3299 - 2015-10-18 20:54:38 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:

There is. They cannot overtake top players. Already mentioned numerous time. And you cannot increase sp on one char, you can just change the char. But since you are in Dave`s club, with totally same posting attitude, I am not surprised you say it :)

"Overtake" top players...? SP is a meaningless metric for assessing character power.

I know you have stated that you don't care about you position on some list with top SP players, but statements like the above proves otherwise. You have an interest in keeping this feature out of the game, since it would challenge your standing on this list.

While there have been some other valid arguments against the feature (the most valid being, people feeling SP boosting is a must). I still think the arguments supporting the implementation outweigh the ones against.

It is a valid concern, that new player could avoid EvE, because they get the impression that you need to invest X amount of IRL money in order to even do anything. However, given that the character bazaar already exists, I don't think this concern is too justified.

On the other hand, I personally have had difficulties convincing friends to start EvE, cause they don't like that they have to wait maybe a week or two before they feel viable. I've talked with them, regarding this proposed feature and their response is very positive.

They were most positive about the fact, that newbies will have an additional goal to work towards. Meaning, one more reason to actually undock and do something, instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked while the skill queue is running.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#3300 - 2015-10-18 20:55:37 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
to be fair, i think this thread is done now. for the last like 150 pages there has been 0 discussion of the devblog as people have had to have basic and irrelevant concepts explaining to them.



Actually there have been plenty of solid concerns and side effects. And sh*tload of trolling done by you and couple more. Wish CCP had actually tried to improve the forums. Or they are doing it in the same way they are doing it for the game :D

Edit: no 5 in forum rules is that trolling is prohibited. I understand that there is quite a work here with 160 pages of text but if mods have checked it earlier they could have easily stopped it. So, mods please do your work.


mate, i just posted a better argument against this idea than anyone has done so far. i'm not even against it. you guys need to get yourselves together.


Weird way of not having anything against it, posting hundreds of post trying to challenge/manipulate those who are against it :D

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know