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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3261 - 2015-10-18 19:46:17 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
however BIG ASS DISCLAIMER - THESE NUMBERS ARE PULLED OUT OF THIN AIR.
meh, they sound reasonable to me



yeah, but you know that some one will come back later and said "you said they're only gonna be 24m!!!!

but yeah i don't expect them to be that much, especially since if people want newer players to use them they are going to have to be accessible on a new player's income.

which, at current plex prices they aren't. as far as tweaking numbers goes - i think slashing everything by 90% would go a long way to helping.

300m is a lot to a new player, 30m isn't. a new player looks at 300m and says "i'll never afford that" vs 30m and say "****, my caracal cost me that much after i fit it and filled it with ammo, that's fairly cheap".



This whole bit here about newbro's being able to afford 30m as oppposed to 300m, isnt this just the extractor price your quoting on this figure though ..... empty what about the skillpoint cost ???

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#3262 - 2015-10-18 19:49:28 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
a short term cynical cash grab.


it's no more of a cash grab than we already have.

you either buy a character - or you buy SP packets. you won't do both. it's not a new cash grab you're just moving from character transfer revenue to skill extractor/aur revenue.


Either you're a Dev alt or someone is offering you something to do this. Which is it?


nobody has to offer me anything to state a fact. the joy of knowing some one's incorrect argument fell apart because of it is payment enough.


Then I should be the happiest person on this planet after "discussion" with you and others. Btw, have you managed to read wots i wrote yet?

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Dave Stark
#3263 - 2015-10-18 19:51:24 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
a short term cynical cash grab.


it's no more of a cash grab than we already have.

you either buy a character - or you buy SP packets. you won't do both. it's not a new cash grab you're just moving from character transfer revenue to skill extractor/aur revenue.


Either you're a Dev alt or someone is offering you something to do this. Which is it?


nobody has to offer me anything to state a fact. the joy of knowing some one's incorrect argument fell apart because of it is payment enough.


Then I should be the happiest person on this planet after "discussion" with you and others. Btw, have you managed to read wots i wrote yet?


i got through 1 of the 3 pages then you went off on a tangent about something completely unrelated to the topic so yeah, i read that first page then replied, then you replied, and we've actually finished talking about your text based self pleasuring about 20 or so pages ago.
Scott Dracov
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3264 - 2015-10-18 19:57:27 UTC
Atara wrote:
More erosion of the principles and foundation to what made this game great. This generation of devs is removing what made eve great. Sad but it won't stop.

Terrible idea.


When you stand on the shoulders of Giants its easy to take the view for granted...

Until you fall and have no way to reclaim what you lost in your descent into obscurity...

Then it seems good to break all the rules the founders gave you that allowed you to prosper...

In the end everything that was once unique and inspiring is gone and there is no one left to blame and no one that even cares anyway as the buzzards pick the carcass of a once great titan of imagination.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#3265 - 2015-10-18 20:07:09 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
how people fund their SP purchases has no relation to what the current cost of facilitating the transfer of SP between two accounts.

it doesn't matter if people buy their characters by selling jelly beans instead of plex.


How people fund purchases within the game is entirely relevant to CCP as a business. Using jelly beans to fund purchases earns CCP no extra income, but does earn CCP extra costs in terms of the time taken to ban accounts of players engaging in RMT. Using PLEX to fund purchases earns CCP $7/month extra income over the $10/month that a subscriber would otherwise have paid for that month of game time.

Thus converting from a 20 PLEX transaction for an entire character with SP allocated into particular skills, into a bunch of 2 PLEX transactions for raw SP is also entirely relevant to people concerned about CCP's future financial viability.

CCP has positioned EVE Online as a Premium Subscription MMO. If EVE Online does not maintain its cachet as the most expensive MMO to play, it can no longer maintain its claim to be a Premium offering. As such it is important to CCP to maintain the SP/skills system, and encourage new players to spend money in the process of attempting to catch up with veteran players who have characters with hundreds of SP.

Foolish discussions of removing skills entirely in order to make the game more accessible to new players completely ignore the need for CCP to maintain the status of the game as a Premium offering in a market where some games are attracting tens of thousands of dollars a year from players desperate to buy advantage or status.

The SP transfer system with its "diminishing returns" design is an excellent way for CCP to break into the "whale" market prevalent in the Free-To-Play/Pay-To-Win genre that CCP wishes to pivot EVE into.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Dave Stark
#3266 - 2015-10-18 20:09:40 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
how people fund their SP purchases has no relation to what the current cost of facilitating the transfer of SP between two accounts.

it doesn't matter if people buy their characters by selling jelly beans instead of plex.


How people fund purchases within the game is entirely relevant to CCP as a business. Using jelly beans to fund purchases earns CCP no extra income, but does earn CCP extra costs in terms of the time taken to ban accounts of players engaging in RMT. Using PLEX to fund purchases earns CCP $7/month extra income over the $10/month that a subscriber would otherwise have paid for that month of game time.

Thus converting from a 20 PLEX transaction for an entire character with SP allocated into particular skills, into a bunch of 2 PLEX transactions for raw SP is also entirely relevant to people concerned about CCP's future financial viability.

CCP has positioned EVE Online as a Premium Subscription MMO. If EVE Online does not maintain its cachet as the most expensive MMO to play, it can no longer maintain its claim to be a Premium offering. As such it is important to CCP to maintain the SP/skills system, and encourage new players to spend money in the process of attempting to catch up with veteran players who have characters with hundreds of SP.

Foolish discussions of removing skills entirely in order to make the game more accessible to new players completely ignore the need for CCP to maintain the status of the game as a Premium offering in a market where some games are attracting tens of thousands of dollars a year from players desperate to buy advantage or status.

The SP transfer system with its "diminishing returns" design is an excellent way for CCP to break into the "whale" market prevalent in the Free-To-Play/Pay-To-Win genre that CCP wishes to pivot EVE into.


I'm aware of that. and yet none of it relates to the potential isk price of TSEs. which is what we were discussing.
we were having a guess at the isk price of a TSE and then that guy came along screaming i was intentionally ignoring stuff.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#3267 - 2015-10-18 20:12:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Don ZOLA
Dave Stark wrote:
to be fair, i think this thread is done now. for the last like 150 pages there has been 0 discussion of the devblog as people have had to have basic and irrelevant concepts explaining to them.



Actually there have been plenty of solid concerns and side effects, couple of sane supporters and sh*tload of trolling done by you and couple more. Wish CCP had actually tried to improve the forums. Or they are doing it in the same way they are doing it for the game :D

Edit: no 5 in forum rules is that trolling is prohibited. I understand that there is quite a work here with 160 pages of text but if mods have checked it earlier they could have easily stopped it. So, mods please do your work.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Dave Stark
#3268 - 2015-10-18 20:14:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
scratch that.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3269 - 2015-10-18 20:14:59 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
how people fund their SP purchases has no relation to what the current cost of facilitating the transfer of SP between two accounts.

it doesn't matter if people buy their characters by selling jelly beans instead of plex.


How people fund purchases within the game is entirely relevant to CCP as a business. Using jelly beans to fund purchases earns CCP no extra income, but does earn CCP extra costs in terms of the time taken to ban accounts of players engaging in RMT. Using PLEX to fund purchases earns CCP $7/month extra income over the $10/month that a subscriber would otherwise have paid for that month of game time.

Thus converting from a 20 PLEX transaction for an entire character with SP allocated into particular skills, into a bunch of 2 PLEX transactions for raw SP is also entirely relevant to people concerned about CCP's future financial viability.

CCP has positioned EVE Online as a Premium Subscription MMO. If EVE Online does not maintain its cachet as the most expensive MMO to play, it can no longer maintain its claim to be a Premium offering. As such it is important to CCP to maintain the SP/skills system, and encourage new players to spend money in the process of attempting to catch up with veteran players who have characters with hundreds of SP.

Foolish discussions of removing skills entirely in order to make the game more accessible to new players completely ignore the need for CCP to maintain the status of the game as a Premium offering in a market where some games are attracting tens of thousands of dollars a year from players desperate to buy advantage or status.

The SP transfer system with its "diminishing returns" design is an excellent way for CCP to break into the "whale" market prevalent in the Free-To-Play/Pay-To-Win genre that CCP wishes to pivot EVE into.


I'm aware of that. and yet none of it relates to the potential isk price of TSEs. which is what we were discussing.
we were having a guess at the isk price of a TSE and then that guy came along screaming i was intentionally ignoring stuff.


When that extractor is filled though its looking more likely to cost 550 to 600m seeing as you seems to have forgotten the actual toon being sold in the bazaar - unless your offering to sell filled ones to folks for 30m as the 300 seemed to high for newbro's

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dave Stark
#3270 - 2015-10-18 20:15:28 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
to be fair, i think this thread is done now. for the last like 150 pages there has been 0 discussion of the devblog as people have had to have basic and irrelevant concepts explaining to them.



Actually there have been plenty of solid concerns and side effects. And sh*tload of trolling done by you and couple more. Wish CCP had actually tried to improve the forums. Or they are doing it in the same way they are doing it for the game :D

Edit: no 5 in forum rules is that trolling is prohibited. I understand that there is quite a work here with 160 pages of text but if mods have checked it earlier they could have easily stopped it. So, mods please do your work.


mate, i just posted a better argument against this idea than anyone has done so far. i'm not even against it. you guys need to get yourselves together.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3271 - 2015-10-18 20:17:14 UTC
I think the success of this entirely depends on how it's sold. CCP could sell this as a way for new characters to catch up even if its not realistic. While this is a unique aspect of EVE, that doesn't mean that it's to its benefit. I've been around for awhile and I keep seeing the same argument against this. SP doesn't make you good, player skill does. Well I think we've always known that wasn't quite 100% true. SP has an impact on play and it's something that a new pilot can never catch up on regardless of how much they play or how well they do.

That's to EVE's detriment.

If I go an tell any new player of a sport that there is something that they can never be as good at as someone else because they arrived later, then I'm telling a lot of them to not bother. In a competitive game like this, the idea that I can be the best of the best at everything is an enticement to play and get better even for people that will likely never be competitive at that level.

Frankly this was the last hurdle for EVE breaking out of its niche. It should be possible for anyone to start a new account and become the greatest pilot in every measurable way given sufficient effort.

Right now, a pilot can become the richest person in EVE. They can become the most influential. They can amass the most territory, but they cannot get the most SP. It's the last thing and it needs to go.

What's strange for me is that I started on the other side of this. I thought it was a bad idea. Though I still think it needs tweaking so that older characters like myself get even less or no benefit which should help with the demand side of things as well. But looking back on all the arguments of real or imagined advantages of older players, I keep seeing people being discouraged from playing at all. Be it tech 2 BPOs, SP or others. And as much as I wish it weren't so, perception is reality. And that perception has been hurting EVE for a long time.
Etara Silverblade
Morex Group Inc.
Haven.
#3272 - 2015-10-18 20:17:38 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
When feature will be implemented then you will find out how much your skill points are worth.


Right now my skillpoints are priceless and putting a price on them cheapens my loyalty to the game and the time I spent getting those skill points.

Right now time in game equals skill points and after this is in, money will equal skill points. It's that simple and I will have none of it.
Dave Stark
#3273 - 2015-10-18 20:18:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Levi Belvar wrote:
When that extractor is filled though its looking more likely to cost 550 to 600m seeing as you seems to have forgotten the actual toon being sold in the bazaar - unless your offering to sell filled ones to folks for 30m as the 300 seemed to high for newbro's


what?

300m is the plex price for 7.7 days of subscription time (at current plex prices), which is how long it trains to obtain 500,000 SP using an optimal remap and +5 attribute implants.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#3274 - 2015-10-18 20:22:05 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
to be fair, i think this thread is done now. for the last like 150 pages there has been 0 discussion of the devblog as people have had to have basic and irrelevant concepts explaining to them.



Actually there have been plenty of solid concerns and side effects. And sh*tload of trolling done by you and couple more. Wish CCP had actually tried to improve the forums. Or they are doing it in the same way they are doing it for the game :D

Edit: no 5 in forum rules is that trolling is prohibited. I understand that there is quite a work here with 160 pages of text but if mods have checked it earlier they could have easily stopped it. So, mods please do your work.


mate, i just posted a better argument against this idea than anyone has done so far. i'm not even against it. you guys need to get yourselves together.


Sorry to burst your bubble, but you have avoided all the questions you did not have the answers for, you have not read half ot the side effect analyzes, took parts of comments out of context and made counter questions on such, twisted everything you could. You have trolled and spammed this thread. Though I have to admit it was done professionally.

On one side you have done a favor to all who are against this as who ever read full topic could easily realize what you are doing.
On the other you are just creating noise, tons of post which are just stating that other peoples arguments are void, without actually counter arguments so random readers who just jump in and read couple of pages might get impression that what you are saying is really true. Classic manipulation.

As I already said, I hope CCP actually reads the topic and all arguments against this and then gives it a deep thought. And then either provide REAL arguments and explain no sayers where they are wrong or cancel this idea. Until then I guess you will continue with your manipulation, unless some mod actually does his job and reads through this. Then he can sanction you in accordance to forum rules.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#3275 - 2015-10-18 20:22:33 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:


Actually there have been plenty of solid concerns and side effects, couple of sane supporters and sh*tload of trolling ton of people pointing out the massive flaws in my arguments done by you and couple more. Wish CCP had actually tried to improve the forums. Or they are doing it in the same way they are doing it for the game :D
Edited to reflect reality.

Quote:
Edit: no 5 in forum rules is that trolling is prohibited. I understand that there is quite a work here with 160 pages of text but if mods have checked it earlier they could have easily stopped it. So, mods please do your work.
I don't think CCPs definition of trolling (being a ****) agrees with your definition (disagreeing with you).

Mr Epeen Cool
BirdStrike
Doomheim
#3276 - 2015-10-18 20:23:11 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
I'm going to make a better argument against this new proposal than has been seen in the first 165 pages of this thread.

you can use this system to "bypass" prerequisites for ships. you can train the prerequisites for say, command ships, then extract all the leadership SP and still fly them.

there needs to be a check to ensure that you cannot extract sp from skills where you have trained something that requires the skill you are trying to extract.


Its already there, look up the dependency requirements for any skill. It lists the pre-requisite skill tree you need to unlock to train those skills with ticks for ones you meet. There are lots of examples where you need more than one skill to use a given/ship module so its trivial for CCP to simply invalidate that skill if you remove the underlying dependency.
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3277 - 2015-10-18 20:23:28 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
I'm going to make a better argument against this new proposal than has been seen in the first 165 pages of this thread.

you can use this system to "bypass" prerequisites for ships. you can train the prerequisites for say, command ships, then extract all the leadership SP and still fly them.

there needs to be a check to ensure that you cannot extract sp from skills where you have trained something that requires the skill you are trying to extract.


Man, really, I have no words for what your're doing in this thread.

CCP Terminus wrote:
The current plan is to not allow skillpoints to be extracted from skills that are requirements of other skills. So in your example you would have to remove the Command Ships skill before you could remove any prerequisite skills like Armored Warfare.
We also plan on having this be something you can only do in stations, so you wouldn't be stuck in in space in a ship you can no longer fly.


Dave Stark
#3278 - 2015-10-18 20:23:36 UTC
BirdStrike wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
I'm going to make a better argument against this new proposal than has been seen in the first 165 pages of this thread.

you can use this system to "bypass" prerequisites for ships. you can train the prerequisites for say, command ships, then extract all the leadership SP and still fly them.

there needs to be a check to ensure that you cannot extract sp from skills where you have trained something that requires the skill you are trying to extract.


Its already there, look up the dependency requirements for any skill. It lists the pre-requisite skill tree you need to unlock to train those skills with ticks for ones you meet. There are lots of examples where you need more than one skill to use a given/ship module so its trivial for CCP to simply invalidate that skill if you remove the underlying dependency.


yep, some one just pointed me to it.
Dave Stark
#3279 - 2015-10-18 20:24:23 UTC
Delegate wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
I'm going to make a better argument against this new proposal than has been seen in the first 165 pages of this thread.

you can use this system to "bypass" prerequisites for ships. you can train the prerequisites for say, command ships, then extract all the leadership SP and still fly them.

there needs to be a check to ensure that you cannot extract sp from skills where you have trained something that requires the skill you are trying to extract.


Man, really, I have no words for what your're doing in this thread.

CCP Terminus wrote:
The current plan is to not allow skillpoints to be extracted from skills that are requirements of other skills. So in your example you would have to remove the Command Ships skill before you could remove any prerequisite skills like Armored Warfare.
We also plan on having this be something you can only do in stations, so you wouldn't be stuck in in space in a ship you can no longer fly.




yeah, just seen that. not sure how i missed it the other day.

then again the only decent argument against this idea just vanished, *shrug*
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3280 - 2015-10-18 20:25:28 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
yeah, just seen that. not sure how i missed it the other day.


I very much doubt you missed it.