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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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BirdStrike
Doomheim
#3241 - 2015-10-18 19:05:38 UTC  |  Edited by: BirdStrike
Dror wrote:
BirdStrike wrote:
Public Relation wrote:
BirdStrike wrote:
You don't need a system to buy SP then do you, you can fly almost all t1 fits within your first month in game. If SP makes no difference and its all about player skill why does this argument even exist?



Depending on the definition and people idea of winning/losing, there is already way to pave your way into "paying" to whatever: Plex and character transfert. So no point of arguing over and over, over the pay to winLol.

Skill point trading is nothing worse or better then Character trading. It is more convenient i agree then character trading, but in the end both are SP selling.


Nothing they really do will make EVE pay to win, because

there is nothing to win. The film Layer Cake springs to mind with the speech Michael Gambon makes.

However SP makes life in EVE easier: you have the opportunity to make more isk in pve activities. The more isk you can make the more trivial pvp losses become, so you can engage more with better tools. But you still don't get a certain win outcome because there is no one size fits all wtfbbq ship (the svipul maybe..) and EVE is balanced in the flavour of the blob. A single solo officer fit nyx is dead in the water vs a t1 blob of logis, battleships and hictors. The Nyx only becomes unbreakable with a sufficent fleet of spider tank rep carriers and a titan or two just in case. You can have all the isk and Sp in the world and the pimpest ships in the game but you can't buy friends who've got your six, and EVE is the sort of playerbase where if you try and buy your friends they are more likely to gank/scam you than help you.

The only benefit this new system will have is appeasing the iwantnow crowd and lining CCPs pockets. But as I said earlier, its a short sighted because the quicker players achieve their goals, the quicker they become bored and look elsewhere because EVE's real problem is not the mostly pointless grind, its a decade of stagnation papering over the cracks.

Except, support can be purchased, whether through alts or thorugh corps and alliances.

Just criticizing the newbie demographic and their slightly-reduced barrier to entry is shallow. There's a whole majority of the game that can make much more than newbies and supply their SP requirements, whether alts or recruits, for very specific roles and placements.

You're still not defining P2W, nor really investing in the ideas that come from and are prevented by SP. That's what's relevant for if newbies are any more interested in the game. They still can't be really efficient for the multiple roles that are included with this RPG, and if that's why they come (the depth of the game), even this really gate stream of improvement still has to be more interesting than all of the other games, especially which are free.


Pay to win would be handing over a large amount of cash to CCP to be able to march into nulsec and evict goons from every system they owned. Or buying up every single commodity in Jita and hitting the trash it button. Buying 1000 titans, paying 1000 titsn pilots to hellcamp pandemic legion and wipe out there entire supercap fleet.

One character with 100m - 200m sp a trillion isk and officer fit tengu is no more going to win EVE than Bill Gates can claim to have won the human race.

I'll define pay 2 win. Pay 2 win is having the resources at your disposal to beat any other player at any task regardless of their ability. If CCP were selling a invulnerable titan with instant recharge doomsdays that could oneshot anything in game and go to hisec, thats an example of pay 2 win.

There is no pay 2 win, some solo rambo god mode isn't going to destroy the goons, pandemic or break the entire trading system and end up with all the resources and isk. They aren't even going to win every pvp encounter.

Pay 2 win doesn't exist in EVE because its you vs the rest of the playerbase.

As for the newbs are useless argument, that's the learning curve not the sp limit. I have a new character, i was running level 4's and clocked 200m in an afternoon with less than 1.2m sp because i've done those missions so many times and know how to fit with eft, triggers and so on. I could have 5m sp injected but go wading into AE bonus room in a armor tanked golem with light missiles and lose my ship. i could lose a faction fit tengu vs a t1 neut boat...this won't do a thing to help newbros because having max sp doesnt give them any knowledge of how to fit ships, how to tank properly, or any of the other game mechanics that take months and sometimes years to learn.

The only difference putting a newbro in a t2 fit ship vs t1 is he's going to sit in it for 60 seconds longer before it blows up and he'll get a bigger bill to replace it.

The irony of the newbro argument is the nosp newbros in karmafleet, horde and brave have probably done more pvp and understand eve combat mechanics better than countless 80m vets who've never left hisec. So the assumption that if you don't have the latest t2 doctrine you can't enjoy pvp is clearly disproven by the nulsec newbros. And like motor racing, nobody puts a learner in a f1 car because they'll break it, its better for players to learn to pvp in throaway frigs and cruisers so they have the skills to use the shiny kit when they get it.

Whats the alternative? You spend 100m on a shiny fit, lose it in 3 mins and spend the next month either grinding pve to replace it for your next three minutes or go broke buying plex to pay for your losses.

They'll learn quicker with 100 frigs to lose than 1 shiny,
Dave Stark
#3242 - 2015-10-18 19:06:17 UTC
Delegate wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
any higher than that price and there's no way to defend the accusation "ccp are just out to grab money" because they're intentionally increasing the price to transfer SP. (that's before we even consider the diminishing returns).


Except once again you ignored the fact that market with an entry level of 1-2 plexes will see a lot of customers that would not consider spending 20 or more plexes on the character bazaar. That market is targeted towards completely different audience. And for everyone following the thread its clear that you ignored this detail deliberately.


what are you talking about?

you don't spend plex in the bazaar, you spend isk.
Atara
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3243 - 2015-10-18 19:07:17 UTC
More erosion of the principles and foundation to what made this game great. This generation of devs is removing what made eve great. Sad but it won't stop.

Terrible idea.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3244 - 2015-10-18 19:07:31 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Delegate wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
any higher than that price and there's no way to defend the accusation "ccp are just out to grab money" because they're intentionally increasing the price to transfer SP. (that's before we even consider the diminishing returns).


Except once again you ignored the fact that market with an entry level of 1-2 plexes will see a lot of customers that would not consider spending 20 or more plexes on the character bazaar. That market is targeted towards completely different audience. And for everyone following the thread its clear that you ignored this detail deliberately.


what are you talking about?
Indeed Roll

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3245 - 2015-10-18 19:09:36 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Delegate wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
any higher than that price and there's no way to defend the accusation "ccp are just out to grab money" because they're intentionally increasing the price to transfer SP. (that's before we even consider the diminishing returns).


Except once again you ignored the fact that market with an entry level of 1-2 plexes will see a lot of customers that would not consider spending 20 or more plexes on the character bazaar. That market is targeted towards completely different audience. And for everyone following the thread its clear that you ignored this detail deliberately.


what are you talking about?

you don't spend plex in the bazaar, you spend isk.


Which for a lot of players, new especially, equals selling plex to get the isk. Again you understand this very well, but choose to ignore.
Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3246 - 2015-10-18 19:09:45 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Another aspect is that we don't know how much we are going to have to pay to purchase these nueral extractors. Veteren players are going to be purchasing PLEX to convert to aurum to purcahse them, so for any increase in supply there will also be an direct increase in demand.

So how about telling CCP that they should not be charging AUR for this service, but ISK? After all, we pay ISK for jump clones and the like. So why the heck not for this as well?

It sure would male lore sense, and if the AUR cost is what could put upward pressure on PLEX, then removing this would mean only the downward pressure on PLEX is left.

So newbies get to skill up faster, vets get to PLEX their account easier, all are happy?
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3247 - 2015-10-18 19:11:07 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Etara Silverblade wrote:
As many have said, this sounds like a bad joke and I can't believe the CSM isn't fighting this loudly and publicly. Any CSM that hasn't come out against this already is not going to get my vote next election.

I am against character sales and anyone who buys characters is just looking for an easy win and doesn't actually like the game for what it is. They are second class citizens and CCP should not promote it or any other form of payment for skill points. If they are in need of money then they should raise the subscription price because I'd rather pay more and know my skill points are worth something.

Skill points are a reward for loyalty to the game and now CCP wants to cash in on the loyalty or lack of loyalty of some players.

There is no much need in it because many players speaking for themselves in this thread. But still agree with you about representing pesonal reasons(not feelings) by CSMs.

I'm not looking for easy win but for a faster way with effort from my side with in-game activity. I rather earn some isks and invest them into SP than waiting while my skill training.

When feature will be implemented then you will find out how much your skill points are worth.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Dave Stark
#3248 - 2015-10-18 19:11:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Delegate wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Delegate wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
any higher than that price and there's no way to defend the accusation "ccp are just out to grab money" because they're intentionally increasing the price to transfer SP. (that's before we even consider the diminishing returns).


Except once again you ignored the fact that market with an entry level of 1-2 plexes will see a lot of customers that would not consider spending 20 or more plexes on the character bazaar. That market is targeted towards completely different audience. And for everyone following the thread its clear that you ignored this detail deliberately.


what are you talking about?

you don't spend plex in the bazaar, you spend isk.


Which for a lot of players, new especially, equals selling plex to get the isk. Again you understand this very well but choose to ignore.


how people fund their SP purchases has no relation to what the current cost of facilitating the transfer of SP between two accounts.

it doesn't matter if people buy their characters by selling jelly beans instead of plex. it still costs 2 plex for an assumed average transfer of 50m SP, leading to the extrapolated extractor price of 24m/unit.

besides, the transfer fee is paid by the seller not the buyer. in both systems.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#3249 - 2015-10-18 19:12:07 UTC
Atara wrote:
More erosion of the principles and foundation to what made this game great. This generation of devs is removing what made eve great. Sad but it won't stop.

Terrible idea.
LOL!

This must be a really important issue for a 2004 character to drag themselves to the forum for their first post ever.

Mr Epeen Cool
Dave Stark
#3250 - 2015-10-18 19:13:16 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Atara wrote:
More erosion of the principles and foundation to what made this game great. This generation of devs is removing what made eve great. Sad but it won't stop.

Terrible idea.
LOL!

This must be a really important issue for a 2004 character to drag themselves to the forum for their first post ever.

Mr Epeen Cool


maybe they missed the thread about introducing the character bazaar and they've been waiting patiently for the last 11 years?
Dave Stark
#3251 - 2015-10-18 19:14:39 UTC
Tristan Agion wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Another aspect is that we don't know how much we are going to have to pay to purchase these nueral extractors. Veteren players are going to be purchasing PLEX to convert to aurum to purcahse them, so for any increase in supply there will also be an direct increase in demand.

So how about telling CCP that they should not be charging AUR for this service, but ISK? After all, we pay ISK for jump clones and the like. So why the heck not for this as well?

It sure would male lore sense, and if the AUR cost is what could put upward pressure on PLEX, then removing this would mean only the downward pressure on PLEX is left.

So newbies get to skill up faster, vets get to PLEX their account easier, all are happy?


if they decide not to make extractors available for aur, i think LP would be a better source than isk. they'd make a nice replacement for learning implants as something for mission runners to purchase, imo.
Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3252 - 2015-10-18 19:18:51 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
if they decide not to make extractors available for aur, i think LP would be a better source than isk. they'd make a nice replacement for learning implants as something for mission runners to purchase, imo.

I like that idea a lot. It gives LP a new and relevant role, and makes mission running more attractive.
Dave Stark
#3253 - 2015-10-18 19:20:32 UTC
Tristan Agion wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
if they decide not to make extractors available for aur, i think LP would be a better source than isk. they'd make a nice replacement for learning implants as something for mission runners to purchase, imo.

I like that idea a lot. It gives LP a new and relevant role, and makes mission running more attractive.


and solve's ccp's problem of "lots of mission runners use learning implants to cash out their LP" which has been one of their barriers to overhauling the attribute system.
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3254 - 2015-10-18 19:23:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Delegate
Dave Stark wrote:
Delegate wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Delegate wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
any higher than that price and there's no way to defend the accusation "ccp are just out to grab money" because they're intentionally increasing the price to transfer SP. (that's before we even consider the diminishing returns).


Except once again you ignored the fact that market with an entry level of 1-2 plexes will see a lot of customers that would not consider spending 20 or more plexes on the character bazaar. That market is targeted towards completely different audience. And for everyone following the thread its clear that you ignored this detail deliberately.


what are you talking about?

you don't spend plex in the bazaar, you spend isk.


Which for a lot of players, new especially, equals selling plex to get the isk. Again you understand this very well but choose to ignore.


how people fund their SP purchases has no relation to what the current cost of facilitating the transfer of SP between two accounts.

it doesn't matter if people buy their characters by selling jelly beans instead of plex. it still costs 2 plex for an assumed average transfer of 50m SP, leading to the extrapolated extractor price of 24m/unit.

besides, the transfer fee is paid by the seller not the buyer. in both systems.


“how people fund their SP purchases” is directly related to what kind of audience this new mechanism is targeted, and in turn directly related to what kind of price CCP might ask for that micro-transfers (while keeping the customers queue flowing).

We both know you understands this well. We both know you resolve to noise at this point. So I will let this short exchange for other to judge. It demonstrates pretty well your intentions in this thread.
Dave Stark
#3255 - 2015-10-18 19:26:07 UTC
Delegate wrote:
“how people fund their SP purchases” is directly related to what kind of audience this new mechanism is targeted, and in turn directly related to what kind of price CCP might ask for that micro-transfer (while keeping the customers queue flowing).


considering the cost of transferring SP isn't paid buy the "target audience", i once again ask; what the hell are you blithering about?
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#3256 - 2015-10-18 19:26:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Terranid Meester
Mike Azariah wrote:

I do not think Eve is fair, never have. But I do not like encouraging a divide based on wealth anymore than what already exists in the game. I don't have skin directly in this, I just topped 125 mill and I do not do 'alts'. This is not about me but about the perception of the game from outside, from people coming in and from those who might leave.


I understand the concern about these new skill points but why should wealth and skill points be a divide? A person can pay trillions for Transneural Skill Extractors but does that actually make them a better player? Surely charisma, length of game time, the ability to make something happen, prowess in combat is what separates the homo sapiens from the insects?

Atara wrote:
More erosion of the principles and foundation to what made this game great. This generation of devs is removing what made eve great. Sad but it won't stop.

Terrible idea.


CCP [Hilmar] do do some terrible things but they have also made the game what it is/was. Personally I think its time CCP added some things that make the game great again like another way to lose skillpoints etc. Its starting to seem like CCP are running out of ideas.
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3257 - 2015-10-18 19:32:03 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Delegate wrote:
“how people fund their SP purchases” is directly related to what kind of audience this new mechanism is targeted, and in turn directly related to what kind of price CCP might ask for that micro-transfer (while keeping the customers queue flowing).


considering the cost of transferring SP isn't paid buy the "target audience", i once again ask; what the hell are you blithering about?


It is, because they pay the seller for the SP and his costs. Tell me, how far you you will go with the noise, unashamed?
BirdStrike
Doomheim
#3258 - 2015-10-18 19:32:20 UTC
Tristan Agion wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Another aspect is that we don't know how much we are going to have to pay to purchase these nueral extractors. Veteren players are going to be purchasing PLEX to convert to aurum to purcahse them, so for any increase in supply there will also be an direct increase in demand.

So how about telling CCP that they should not be charging AUR for this service, but ISK? After all, we pay ISK for jump clones and the like. So why the heck not for this as well?

It sure would male lore sense, and if the AUR cost is what could put upward pressure on PLEX, then removing this would mean only the downward pressure on PLEX is left.

So newbies get to skill up faster, vets get to PLEX their account easier, all are happy?


I think you missed the point that CCP's interest is in creating new revenue selling AUR for real life money. They figured out gold monocles weren't likely to be a big seller after they abandoned the complexity of walking in stations, so they looked for the biggest pain point complaint from players and figured out how to monetarise it.

If you think they're going to give you this sort of feature in return for shooting triangles then you've missed the whole reason CCP introduced AUR in the first place, to empty your wallet.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3259 - 2015-10-18 19:33:41 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Delegate wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
any higher than that price and there's no way to defend the accusation "ccp are just out to grab money" because they're intentionally increasing the price to transfer SP. (that's before we even consider the diminishing returns).


Except once again you ignored the fact that market with an entry level of 1-2 plexes will see a lot of customers that would not consider spending 20 or more plexes on the character bazaar. That market is targeted towards completely different audience. And for everyone following the thread its clear that you ignored this detail deliberately.


what are you talking about?
Indeed Roll


Baaaa

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dave Stark
#3260 - 2015-10-18 19:35:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Delegate wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Delegate wrote:
“how people fund their SP purchases” is directly related to what kind of audience this new mechanism is targeted, and in turn directly related to what kind of price CCP might ask for that micro-transfer (while keeping the customers queue flowing).


considering the cost of transferring SP isn't paid buy the "target audience", i once again ask; what the hell are you blithering about?


It is, because they pay the seller for the SP and his costs. Tell me, how far you you will go with the noise, unashamed?


no, they don't pay it. the cost is simply passed on to them.

regardless i still haven't got a clue what you're talking about. the way people generate the revenue to buy and sell SP has nothing to do with how much the transfer fee costs. you're literally just posting ******** replies because you see my name on the left.



know what. i'll make it easy.

correct my maths with the missing variable, or stop posting.