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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3201 - 2015-10-18 17:30:53 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
BirdStrike wrote:

You don't need a system to buy SP then do you, you can fly almost all t1 fits within your first month in game. If SP makes no difference and its all about player skill why does this argument even exist?

Because PvP is only one of many in-game activities which may requiring more SP than that.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#3202 - 2015-10-18 17:31:01 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
So I read an article on the internet and it said something along the lines of, anyone who is against this change is really just projecting their emotional insecurities and are letting their irrationalities manifest themselves because they as people have zero self-control.

But it's OK, because we, the deciders, understand you're incapable of logical thought so we know to just ignore the things you say and write your name down on The List.

Great change CCP, way to take the initiative in saving EvE.
Most of them are not only incapable of logical thought, they are incapable of understanding your first paragraph.

*ducks and covers*

Mr Epeen Cool
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#3203 - 2015-10-18 17:33:18 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
So I read an article on the internet and it said something along the lines of, anyone who is against this change is really just projecting their emotional insecurities and are letting their irrationalities manifest themselves because they as people have zero self-control.

But it's OK, because we, the deciders, understand you're incapable of logical thought so we know to just ignore the things you say and write your name down on The List.

Great change CCP, way to take the initiative in saving EvE.

*chuckles*

Clutching at straws now here I see.
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3204 - 2015-10-18 17:33:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Soltys
Dave Stark wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
With current proposal I would just stop at 49999999 and respec when needed.


go to 50,499,999.

once you extract 500,000 you drop below 50m, and get the lower penalty rate when you inject it back in.


I sincerely hope they will either lower/adjust or remove this whole "diminishing return" constraint. Treat every character fairly regardless of its SP pool and without some weird misconception that SP implies loyality or commitment or "prestige". It doesn't, it's just a byproduct of active subscription (and a tiny nanobot in background, pushing meaningless XP bar ... erm SP bar to the right). A guy that resubscribes after 5 years and decides to remain with severely underdeveloped character instead of going to bazaar - that's what commitment means.

Hell, it would be better to introduce 2-3 skills in game to learn (that cannot be skill point injected), deciding when and at what penalty a character can eat SP packs (it starts at 100% penalty), e.g.:

- neurotransport (requires some IV and maybe V skills - biology, science, whatever other **** etc.) rank M; allows use of SP packs; decreases penalty by 4% per level
- neurotransport synchronization (requires neurotransport V) rank N; lessens penalty by 15% per level
- neurotransport calibration (requires neurotransport synchronization IV) rank L; lessens penalty by 10% per level

All skills maxed allow eating with 10% skill loss. Neurotransport trained to level I only is 96% loss.

Adjust M, N, L to create pre-requisite timesink after which SP can be eaten properly. Adjust skillbook prices to create pre-requisite ISK sink.

And keep it fair and the same - whether the receiving character has 1m SP or 200m SP.




Either way the SP in this game with a decade+ of bloated baggage needs serious attention. Either:

- fix it - lowering ranks, adjusting prerequisities, de-linearizing bonuses so IV covers 90%+ of possible bonus and costs shifted to more expensive skillbooks instead of artificial timesink; so in essence something that would be first and foremonst walled by ISK instead of time

or

- turn it into commodity ruled by ISK (like everything in this game)

The former would cause pretty large outcry from bazaar buyers/sellers feeling robbed from their time and money. It would also devalue all learning implants and all attribute remapping plans (SP packs do this as well). And of course older players would complain in similar fashion as here.

The latter causes the outcry from this thread =)

CCP chose the latter.

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl

Buoytender Bob
Ronin Exploration Mission and Mining
#3205 - 2015-10-18 17:36:21 UTC
Sorry if I missed the answer to these questions: Is the skill extractor you purchase from the EVE store and needed to make the skill packets you will sell reusable? If reusable, for how long/much skill points retasked? What will be the cost of the extractor? (yes, I know it is in aurum).

I'm not sure there was a player generated need (request) for this product; if there was, I don't remember seeing it mentioned in the forums. This proposed feature appears to mostly help the following:

1) Veteran players with multiple characters wishing to shed "unused" skill points/characters for isk. This would include those who specifically create and skill up characters only for later sale. The vast majority use Plex to pay for their accounts at the moment. Most are already in the upper 5% of EVE wealth, this just gives them another revenue stream.

2) Rich newbies wanting to "skip to the good part" and paying even more cash to rapidly skill up their characters. I can see the increase in content creation as the newbs overreach and end up losing some of their wealth through lack of experience. While some may then purchase Plex to sell to make up for lost assets (reducing Plex costs, I think), I also feel the EVE customer service may be getting a large inflow of tickets from the inexperienced for their losses.

3) Veteran players with a single account who would love to train their alts up high enough to become effective in their specialized career. This would be the most positive effect, since many single account owners have a character or two relegated to obscurity and probably not utilized very often. Less expensive than paying for allowing a second training character at the same time? I don't know.

I don't think it will bring in a huge new flux of players, but i could be wrong. A group of friends starting the game at the same time may find that they are mission/objective incompatible after a month due to purchased skill packets. Perhaps CCP is hoping for a large influx of "whales" looking for a way to buy themselves into power, although I imagine most of those are investing into the "other" beta test games out there at this time.

At this time, and with the details to be determined, I find myself slightly in favor of this plan, although it probably won't directly affect me very much. If I do utilize the option in the future, it will probably for reason number 3 and I'm sure that this isn't the group CCP is catering to at the moment.




To buck the popular trend, I began to Rage Start instead of Rage Quit.

...and every time I get another piece of Carbon, I know exactly what CCP is getting this Christmas.

Terraj Oknatis
Project Sanctuary
#3206 - 2015-10-18 17:37:19 UTC
Tristan Agion wrote:
I'm posting as someone who is fairly new to EVE (2 months, 3.5M SP).

In EVE, interesting content is walled off by skill points barriers, and hence by character time. A big problem is that the new content is not becoming available roughly linear with time. Rather, there are chunks of new game content that become available as you cross some threshold or the other, and then long wait times until you can manage to cross the next threshold.

For example, I'm currently training cov ops and related stuff with the aim to get a reasonably fit explorer frigate to go through wormhole and null/low sec stealthily without getting blown up by every random player who spots me. That takes a month or so. Frankly, I've been playing less while waiting for the skill queue to complete. I don't actually want to mine or rat more asteroid belts, and high sec exploring is getting stale. I can't really run cooler missions than I have been, because I would have to train up skills for my cruiser. But I'm already training the stealth stuff.

What would happen if skill packets were available?

1. I would but a PLEX, convert it into ISK and buy enough skill packets to complete my stealth skills.
2. I would fly my cov ops frigate into worm holes and null/low sec to explore.
3. Because I have stealth, I would probably not get blown up instantly.
4. Because I am unexperienced, I would eventually make some newbie mistake, and get blown up anyway.
5. Rinse and repeat, with me getting better by experience at using stealth and dying less and less.

And this hurts everybody else and in particular experienced players how exactly? Best I can tell, they get

1. Extra PLEX in the market, driving the PLEX price down.
2. Somebody to sell "unwanted" SP to for a lot of ISK.
3. An extra target running around outside of high sec.
4. An extra target that is more of a challenge than a random newbie in a Heron, but still quite killable.
5. A player who is actually still paying CCP subscription money not getting bored into quitting.

Can I abuse all this to boost me all the way to flying a Titan? Well, theoretically. But given how I get rapidly less "bang for the buck" as the SP in my character increases, this would mean major investments of real money.

I expect a skill packet will cost roughly what it costs to train that 500k SP. Let's say you can generate a bit more than 2,000 SP per hour, then you need 10 days to generate one skill packet. Consequently, I expect the market price of a skill packet to be around a third of a PLEX, perhaps a bit less. Let's say it's about 350M ISK.

To boost a character from 0 to 5M SP would hence cost about 3.5B ISK. To boost the character further to 50M SP would cost another 31.5B ISK. To get to 80M SP would require 52.5B ISK, you see there how the reduced skill points gained per packet start to bite. And finally, to get to 100M SP would require another 140B ISK. So in total, from zero to 100M SP would require 227.5B ISK.

Now, maybe you have that kind of money in game, or maybe you have that kind of money in real life to spend on a game. I sure don't. Most people playing EVE I suspect do not have that either. For most people this will be a good way to get their character over a skill speed bump - to be used occasionally.

I think it is a good idea. It will make more newbies do more things faster. It will drive PLEX prices down. And the only people who will full-finance characters to top skills will be the super-rich of EVE. Most skill shopping will be only up to "useful basics" levels of perhaps 10-20M SP, which are somewhat affordable.


Thank you for your insight. Those are some really good points you are making. If i was going to give you a suggestion, Don't wait for stealth V to get out there and explore your wormholes. You have so much to gain by just going in there in a t1 exploration frig and running the sites. If you get blown up you will loose 1-2 mil a ship. However if you succeed you could be pulling down anywhere from 5-10mil a site!. There are no rats in those exploration sites in wormholes (as long as they are the null sec ones. The sleeper ones will have sleepers and they will blow up any frig within a few secs.) Wormholes do not have a local so you have an advantage. Chances are the owners aren't even awake.

Here is the thing about T2 ships. They die just the same as T1 ships but they cost 4-5X as much. If someone sees you and wants to catch you in a site they will. so STAB UP and get in there and start making some isk! Chances are if your going to sp boost your character you will be draining a lot of isk/rl money on the skill points, but then you still have to buy the ships! Because your inexperienced you won't be checking D scan like you should and you will be loosing T2/asteros instead of a magnate. The cost difference on that is HUGE! You will just end up frustrated that you spent so much isk trying to be good at the game. The secret about eve is you don't have to have skill points to be good about the game, you have to be smart. From this post I can tell that you are very smart. Just figure it out!

So just get out there and don't worry so much about your sp. The sp will come in time. SP is like Dumbo's magic feather. You don't need it to fly!
Public Relation
Outer Space Relic Seekers
#3207 - 2015-10-18 17:55:41 UTC
BirdStrike wrote:
You don't need a system to buy SP then do you, you can fly almost all t1 fits within your first month in game. If SP makes no difference and its all about player skill why does this argument even exist?



Depending on the definition and people idea of winning/losing, there is already way to pave your way into "paying" to whatever: Plex and character transfert. So no point of arguing over and over, over the pay to winLol.

Skill point trading is nothing worse or better then Character trading. It is more convenient i agree then character trading, but in the end both are SP selling.
Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3208 - 2015-10-18 17:59:58 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Great analysis, as always! Got me thinking: if CCP keeps the extractor PLEX-equivalent price (in AUR) lower than the expected PLEX-equivalent price of the 500,000 SP, this whole thing will probably INCREASE PLEX supply, which is pretty cool!

Thanks. Indeed, I think it is highly likely that PLEX prices will drop because of this.

1. Who is putting new PLEX into circulations anyhow? People who either cannot grind the ISK, or do not want to (likely in part because it would take far too long). Thus mostly players that are new to middle aged (in game).

2. Whom is this skill package system benefitting particularly? New to middle aged players. They suddenly have a brand new product to spend lots of ISK on.

3. How can they get the additional ISK required? Their situation has not changed, hence basically by buying more PLEX for real money and cashing them in for ISK.

4. Thus the PLEX supply goes up, and the PLEX price drops.

5. If, as many here claim, many vets will leave EVE over this then what would that do? It would lowed the demand for PLEX, and hence make PLEX prices drop even further. (I don't believe that there will be significant drop in vet numbers, but if that happens, then it will push the price the same way.)

Hence the smart money will be on PLEX prices dropping due to this. In fact, I expect that as soon as CCP confirms that they will do this for sure, PLEX prices will start to fall immediately. Because if you are really smart, then you cash in PLEX while the prices are still sky high and sit on the ISK until the skill packets finally become available.

Furthermore, I think there is a good chance for a hard PLEX price crash when this goes live. Suddenly a large number of people will become aware of this new opportunity, but will find themselves short of ISK. What will they do to get in one the skill packet rush? Buy PLEX for real money and sell for ISK. So a whole lot of new PLEX may be dumped on the market in a short time, and that may make the price crash. If that happens, then of course it could be very profitable to buy PLEX at the crash price and keep them to sell later when things have normalised again...
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#3209 - 2015-10-18 18:07:34 UTC
That's the dumbest :logic: I've seen in a while, it's almost as if you're making up reasoning in order to frame something. Almost...
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#3210 - 2015-10-18 18:09:29 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
So I read an article on the internet and it said something along the lines of, anyone who is against this change is really just projecting their emotional insecurities and are letting their irrationalities manifest themselves because they as people have zero self-control.

But it's OK, because we, the deciders, understand you're incapable of logical thought so we know to just ignore the things you say and write your name down on The List.

Great change CCP, way to take the initiative in saving EvE.


What an arrogant pile of horseshit, of course anyone who doesn't subscribe to your POV must have something wrong with them. Roll
Dave Stark
#3211 - 2015-10-18 18:09:34 UTC
Tristan Agion wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Great analysis, as always! Got me thinking: if CCP keeps the extractor PLEX-equivalent price (in AUR) lower than the expected PLEX-equivalent price of the 500,000 SP, this whole thing will probably INCREASE PLEX supply, which is pretty cool!

Thanks. Indeed, I think it is highly likely that PLEX prices will drop because of this.

1. Who is putting new PLEX into circulations anyhow? People who either cannot grind the ISK, or do not want to (likely in part because it would take far too long). Thus mostly players that are new to middle aged (in game).

2. Whom is this skill package system benefitting particularly? New to middle aged players. They suddenly have a brand new product to spend lots of ISK on.

3. How can they get the additional ISK required? Their situation has not changed, hence basically by buying more PLEX for real money and cashing them in for ISK.

4. Thus the PLEX supply goes up, and the PLEX price drops.

5. If, as many here claim, many vets will leave EVE over this then what would that do? It would lowed the demand for PLEX, and hence make PLEX prices drop even further. (I don't believe that there will be significant drop in vet numbers, but if that happens, then it will push the price the same way.)

Hence the smart money will be on PLEX prices dropping due to this. In fact, I expect that as soon as CCP confirms that they will do this for sure, PLEX prices will start to fall immediately. Because if you are really smart, then you cash in PLEX while the prices are still sky high and sit on the ISK until the skill packets finally become available.

Furthermore, I think there is a good chance for a hard PLEX price crash when this goes live. Suddenly a large number of people will become aware of this new opportunity, but will find themselves short of ISK. What will they do to get in one the skill packet rush? Buy PLEX for real money and sell for ISK. So a whole lot of new PLEX may be dumped on the market in a short time, and that may make the price crash. If that happens, then of course it could be very profitable to buy PLEX at the crash price and keep them to sell later when things have normalised again...


you seem to have forgotten that extractors will be purchased with aur, putting upwards pressure on plex prices. i sincerely doubt enough people will be dropping IRL currency on plex to drop on the market to offset that upwards pressure.

you HAVE to use a plex to create TSPs, you don't have to use a plex to purchase them.
Dave Stark
#3212 - 2015-10-18 18:10:20 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
So I read an article on the internet and it said something along the lines of, anyone who is against this change is really just projecting their emotional insecurities and are letting their irrationalities manifest themselves because they as people have zero self-control.

But it's OK, because we, the deciders, understand you're incapable of logical thought so we know to just ignore the things you say and write your name down on The List.

Great change CCP, way to take the initiative in saving EvE.


What an arrogant pile of horseshit, of course anyone who doesn't subscribe to your POV must have something wrong with them. Roll


actually, if you don't agree with them it makes you a CCP employee ;)
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#3213 - 2015-10-18 18:11:56 UTC
Tristan Agion wrote:

Thanks. Indeed, I think it is highly likely that PLEX prices will drop because of this.


LMFAO you cannot possibly predict this, unless you can search your crystal ball and tell us how many people will pay for SPs with cash and how many will pay with isk.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#3214 - 2015-10-18 18:12:53 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
So I read an article on the internet and it said something along the lines of, anyone who is against this change is really just projecting their emotional insecurities and are letting their irrationalities manifest themselves because they as people have zero self-control.

But it's OK, because we, the deciders, understand you're incapable of logical thought so we know to just ignore the things you say and write your name down on The List.

Great change CCP, way to take the initiative in saving EvE.


What an arrogant pile of horseshit, of course anyone who doesn't subscribe to your POV must have something wrong with them. Roll


actually, if you don't agree with them it makes you a CCP employee ;)


equally as ridiculous TBF Lol
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#3215 - 2015-10-18 18:17:26 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
Tristan Agion wrote:

Thanks. Indeed, I think it is highly likely that PLEX prices will drop because of this.


LMFAO you cannot possibly predict this, unless you can search your crystal ball and tell us how many people will pay for SPs with cash and how many will pay with isk.

Another aspect is that we don't know how much we are going to have to pay to purchase these nueral extractors. Veteren players are going to be purchasing PLEX to convert to aurum to purcahse them, so for any increase in supply there will also be an direct increase in demand.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3216 - 2015-10-18 18:18:28 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
Tristan Agion wrote:

Thanks. Indeed, I think it is highly likely that PLEX prices will drop because of this.


LMFAO you cannot possibly predict this, unless you can search your crystal ball and tell us how many people will pay for SPs with cash and how many will pay with isk.
Actually, that's not an option. Skill packets will be sold by players, for ISK.

If you don't have enough ISK, you'll need to buy and sell a PLEX.


It's the extractors that cost AUR. So you'd spend AUR (thus cash) only to reallocate your SP or trade among your alts. If you want MOAR SP, you need to give ISK to a fellow player.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Nilitys
Silent Industry
Silent Company
#3217 - 2015-10-18 18:22:26 UTC
-1 for CCP!

I understand the need for the Aurum system so that CCP can make more cash over it. As long as it's only cosmetics items ( or PLEX related) and I believe that it is the right way to do it!

BUT, this is affecting the gameplay and it is turning the game in pay2win! Almost every MMO or Free2play I know of who did something like that is Dead or dieing!

So, CCP, If you love EVE, please don't! it will kill EVE!
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3218 - 2015-10-18 18:22:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Gully Alex Foyle
Dave Stark wrote:
you HAVE to use a plex to create TSPs, you don't have to use a plex to purchase them.
Yes, it will depend on the PLEX-equivalent price of extractors relative to the market price of SP (on which we argued on a few pages back lol).


If, say, 1 extractor = 1/10 PLEX, you'll easily have people spending more PLEX-equivalent ISK than PLEX-equivalent AUR.

This for player-to-player SP trading. If everybody starts to buy extractors for DIY skill reallocation or trading among alts, then indeed PLEX demand will rise more than PLEX supply.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

BirdStrike
Doomheim
#3219 - 2015-10-18 18:24:40 UTC
Public Relation wrote:
BirdStrike wrote:
You don't need a system to buy SP then do you, you can fly almost all t1 fits within your first month in game. If SP makes no difference and its all about player skill why does this argument even exist?



Depending on the definition and people idea of winning/losing, there is already way to pave your way into "paying" to whatever: Plex and character transfert. So no point of arguing over and over, over the pay to winLol.

Skill point trading is nothing worse or better then Character trading. It is more convenient i agree then character trading, but in the end both are SP selling.


Nothing they really do will make EVE pay to win, because

there is nothing to win. The film Layer Cake springs to mind with the speech Michael Gambon makes.

However SP makes life in EVE easier: you have the opportunity to make more isk in pve activities. The more isk you can make the more trivial pvp losses become, so you can engage more with better tools. But you still don't get a certain win outcome because there is no one size fits all wtfbbq ship (the svipul maybe..) and EVE is balanced in the flavour of the blob. A single solo officer fit nyx is dead in the water vs a t1 blob of logis, battleships and hictors. The Nyx only becomes unbreakable with a sufficent fleet of spider tank rep carriers and a titan or two just in case. You can have all the isk and Sp in the world and the pimpest ships in the game but you can't buy friends who've got your six, and EVE is the sort of playerbase where if you try and buy your friends they are more likely to gank/scam you than help you.

The only benefit this new system will have is appeasing the iwantnow crowd and lining CCPs pockets. But as I said earlier, its a short sighted because the quicker players achieve their goals, the quicker they become bored and look elsewhere because EVE's real problem is not the mostly pointless grind, its a decade of stagnation papering over the cracks.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3220 - 2015-10-18 18:26:50 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
So I read an article on the internet and it said something along the lines of, anyone who is against this change is really just projecting their emotional insecurities and are letting their irrationalities manifest themselves because they as people have zero self-control.

But it's OK, because we, the deciders, understand you're incapable of logical thought so we know to just ignore the things you say and write your name down on The List.

Great change CCP, way to take the initiative in saving EvE.


What an arrogant pile of horseshit, of course anyone who doesn't subscribe to your POV must have something wrong with them. Roll


actually, if you don't agree with them it makes you a CCP employee ;)

I wish to