These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Dave Stark
#3181 - 2015-10-18 16:13:28 UTC
Charlie Nonoke wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Charlie Nonoke wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Charlie Nonoke wrote:

BTW, I also hate the idea.

Why?

I mean I hate the whole extracting SP and making it sellable.

As to why, my sentiments belong with 98% of the other voices.


so, you don't actually have a reason then.

i'd have thought after like 3 days knees would have stopped jerking.

The biggest reason is, you get to self tailor yourself in the purest form in an instant, at no price other than PLEX.
Start a newbie, persevere to 5m, start injecting. Be perfectly combat capable at Mastery V in an hour.

Whereas, Bazaar characters are never the way you want them to, and when presented with one which satisfies your requirement, comes with baggage, 20 corp history listings, useless skills which I had no intention of using, like leadership and Wing command V, when I just wanna small gang in cruisers. That's the price we pay, imperfections, caveats for other desirables. And we made the choice to go on.

I was always impressed by the idea that you should think hard of the decisions you make, because it branches out to undesirable consequences. Like, training Mining to IV because as a noob you wanted to get that extra yield to make money.

Now, this idea makes it so those consequences disappear. Remember years ago when you made a bad decision on your toon which you hated? Poof, gone.

I can start a character and make him pure, without the baggage.
Not only that, I can make him pure in an instant.


so, you're saying you hate the system because you can create a character that can do less, that costs more? so you think we should remove the diminishing returns, or make character transfers more expensive, or what?

as pointed out. not every character on the bazzar has baggage, many of them are trained specifically to be sold and thus have no corp history or reputation as they've never undocked.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3182 - 2015-10-18 16:17:02 UTC
Charlie Nonoke wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Charlie Nonoke wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Charlie Nonoke wrote:

BTW, I also hate the idea.

Why?

I mean I hate the whole extracting SP and making it sellable.

As to why, my sentiments belong with 98% of the other voices.


so, you don't actually have a reason then.

i'd have thought after like 3 days knees would have stopped jerking.

The biggest reason is, you get to self tailor yourself in the purest form in an instant, at no price other than PLEX.
Start a newbie, persevere to 5m, start injecting. Be perfectly combat capable at Mastery V in an hour.

Whereas, Bazaar characters are never the way you want them to, and when presented with one which satisfies your requirement, comes with baggage, 20 corp history listings, useless skills which I had no intention of using, like leadership and Wing command V, when I just wanna small gang in cruisers. That's the price we pay, imperfections, caveats for other desirables. And we made the choice to go on.

I was always impressed by the idea that you should think hard of the decisions you make, because it branches out to undesirable consequences. Like, training Mining to IV because as a noob you wanted to get that extra yield to make money.

Now, this idea makes it so those consequences disappear. Remember years ago when you made a bad decision on your toon which you hated? Poof, gone.

I can start a character and make him pure, without the baggage.
Not only that, I can make him pure in an instant.
Not only that, I also circumvented one of the biggest assets we all possessed, and that's training time, perseverance, patience and sticking to a plan.


You dont need to be at 5 mill sp to start using them just create the toon and go, the 5 mill cap is for extracting from a toon

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Public Relation
Outer Space Relic Seekers
#3183 - 2015-10-18 16:19:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Public Relation
General Lootit wrote:
Public Relation wrote:

Worse then skill point trading are Plex. For someone with enough money, Plex = instant unlimited amount of isk, if you are bright enough you will understand the full consequence for any parties in EvE to have access to unlimited ressources with absolutly no risk.

Only because someone wont or can't earn isk we can have free sub. When someone dumping PLEXes into the game market price droping which also beneficial for players.



I am not debating the right or wrong of plex, i am just stating that EvE have already been prone to the so call "pay to win" syndrome with plex and character bazar.

Skill point trading is nothing worse or better, it wont change nothing in the end regarding "pay to win"... But like the dev have stated it will help new player retention and thats the great thing about it.

Also my opinion on the subject of "pay to win" is simple, isk or skill point wont make you win fight, so no there is no "pay to win" only "pay to get what you want faster".
Unkind Omen
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#3184 - 2015-10-18 16:22:49 UTC
The moment this innovation hits the TQ I will have no more reasons to pay CCP subscription continuously. Instead I will stop by for a couple of days once a year, buy a handful of T1 cruisers to go and burn them to some random gate camps. And IF there would be ever anything (content wise) worth playing I will loose nothing as I can always buy those boosters if not for main character then for a specialist alt to compensate for that time I was "absent". However, from where we are standing now I don't believe that would ever happen. Good job CCP.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3185 - 2015-10-18 16:23:22 UTC
Public Relation wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Public Relation wrote:

Worse then skill point trading are Plex. For someone with enough money, Plex = instant unlimited amount of isk, if you are bright enough you will understand the full consequence for any parties in EvE to have access to unlimited ressources with absolutly no risk.

Only because someone wont or can't earn isk we can have free sub. When someone dumping PLEXes into the game market price droping which also beneficial for players.



I am not debating the right or wrong of plex, i am just stating that EvE have already been prone to the so call "pay to win" syndrome with plex and charater bazar.

Skill point trading is nothing worse or better, it wont change nothing in the end regarding "pay to win"... But like the dev have stated it will help new player retention and thats the great thing about it.

Also my opinion on the subject of "pay to win" is simple, isk or skill point wont make you win fight, so no there is no "pay to win" only "pay to get what you want faster".


Is not the idea of getting to the end point faster classed as the "Win" ergo you have just explained pay to win at its finest.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Pine Marten
Doomheim
#3186 - 2015-10-18 16:28:19 UTC

At first I was against this. But after re-reading it a couple times, it seems to me its not going far enugh. This will only cater the New, the alt or a returning low skillpoint character. I belive this will steal some of the Learning curve from the newer pilots as well. (This might just be what your after) But Personally I want you to take another course. Let us instead pay 2 plex for resculpting our skillpoints. There will always be a trend in what to fly and what you personally like to do. Why should the veterans that have trained for 5years+ not be able to fly as skiilled as they are. (in terms of sp)

I strongly belive that training for months to fly something the way it should, only to find out when you have finished the training, that you don't enjoy it as you thougth it will, looses more New players than anything else in eve. Give the game a reset skills button , payable by plex, and you migth take the edge off some of the agony that many feels before they quit the game.

Enugh ranting from me. Lol
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3187 - 2015-10-18 16:30:22 UTC
Public Relation wrote:

Also my opinion on the subject of "pay to win" is simple, isk or skill point wont make you win fight, so no there is no "pay to win" only "pay to get what you want faster".

See. There is no reason to afraid payers so much =)

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3188 - 2015-10-18 16:34:56 UTC
No Jita riots?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#3189 - 2015-10-18 16:47:24 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
No Jita riots?

Why? Players won't unite, they are divided with the proposal.
Can anybody explain to me why Rise is taking care of such change? He's known pvper, it's obvious he will be lobbing for such change.
Quote:
(...)We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point. (...)

Quote:
(...)or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly Armageddon’s than Stilettos, this feature has you covered.(...)

we can have both here.
I don't support character baazar. It's just a way to
Quote:
discourage people from participating in illegal account sales on eBay and other sites

With current proposal I would just stop at 49999999 and respec when needed.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Public Relation
Outer Space Relic Seekers
#3190 - 2015-10-18 16:53:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Public Relation
Levi Belvar wrote:
Is not the idea of getting to the end point faster classed as the "Win" ergo you have just explained pay to win at its finest.


Lol, eveything is relative, in EvE ressources can be lost, so buying stuff with real cash mean you lost that money. There is an element of risk here in the great sheme of thing.

Like it or not, if there was no plex or character bazzar, people would still "pay to win" with illegal RMT, and these have negative consequence on the game because poeple can easlily get scam and lose everything with not support from CCP.

Basicly what we have now is the lesser of two evil scenario. And i believe CCP is handling it correctly.
BirdStrike
Doomheim
#3191 - 2015-10-18 16:59:17 UTC
Public Relation wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Public Relation wrote:

Worse then skill point trading are Plex. For someone with enough money, Plex = instant unlimited amount of isk, if you are bright enough you will understand the full consequence for any parties in EvE to have access to unlimited ressources with absolutly no risk.

Only because someone wont or can't earn isk we can have free sub. When someone dumping PLEXes into the game market price droping which also beneficial for players.



I am not debating the right or wrong of plex, i am just stating that EvE have already been prone to the so call "pay to win" syndrome with plex and character bazar.

Skill point trading is nothing worse or better, it wont change nothing in the end regarding "pay to win"... But like the dev have stated it will help new player retention and thats the great thing about it.

Also my opinion on the subject of "pay to win" is simple, isk or skill point wont make you win fight, so no there is no "pay to win" only "pay to get what you want faster".


If SP doesn't make you win a fight then there is no need to implement the system or the character bazaar then is there?

Its a strawman to say you want injectable SP yet more SP doesn't help you win anything, otherwise you'd be out pwning the galaxy in your bantam with civilian gatling.

Good luck however trying to remove point from a brick tanked near 1m SP damnation with your 30dps, I'm pretty sure your out of game epeen doesn't actual help with that.
Dave Stark
#3192 - 2015-10-18 17:01:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
With current proposal I would just stop at 49999999 and respec when needed.


go to 50,499,999.

once you extract 500,000 you drop below 50m, and get the lower penalty rate when you inject it back in.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3193 - 2015-10-18 17:07:35 UTC
Public Relation wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Is not the idea of getting to the end point faster classed as the "Win" ergo you have just explained pay to win at its finest.


Lol, eveything is relative, in EvE ressources can be lost, so buying stuff with real cash mean you lost that money. There is an element of risk here in the great sheme of thing.

Like it or not, if there was no plex or character bazzar, people would still "pay to win" with illegal RMT, and these have negative consequence on the game because poeple can easlily get scam and lose everything with not support from CCP.

Basicly what we have now is the lesser of two evil scenario. And i believe CCP is handling it correctly.


There is a huge difference with whats being proposed over the normal bazaar sales that some think is the same, The closest i could suggest it would be the same would be that anything that was put up for sale in the bazaar would for them to just advertise a character for sale that has 30 mill unallocated sp's anything thats entered has its skillpoints zero'd. That would be the same but its just doesnt/wont happen, then theres the fee's a one time payment vs this new TSP is just to make more money per pack end of story.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#3194 - 2015-10-18 17:10:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Portmanteau
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:


Oddly enough I think both POVs will occur. I agree that SPs as a commodity will seems less important to some, to me in fact. But also more SPs within easier reach of newer guys will have the opposite effect, like dangling a pipe in front of a crack ho.
Indeed! But since they will be purchasable ONLY WITH ISK, this could also just motivate them to make ISK.

True, ISK can be purchased with PLEX, but that's nothing new.


https://youtu.be/I2Y5nL0P7Yc?t=14s
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#3195 - 2015-10-18 17:12:14 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:

There is a huge difference with whats being proposed over the normal bazaar sales that some think is the same.


Agreed.

Buying a character will be 10 to 20 times cheaper depending on the SP desired than using SP packs.

And that, my fellow forum dweller, is a huge difference.

Mr Epeen Cool
Maekchu
Doomheim
#3196 - 2015-10-18 17:12:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Maekchu
BirdStrike wrote:
If SP doesn't make you win a fight then there is no need to implement the system or the character bazaar then is there?

Its a strawman to say you want injectable SP yet more SP doesn't help you win anything, otherwise you'd be out pwning the galaxy in your bantam with civilian gatling.

Good luck however trying to remove point from a brick tanked near 1m SP damnation with your 30dps, I'm pretty sure your out of game epeen doesn't actual help with that.

For the most part, SP dictates the amount of various stuff you can do in EvE. In the end of the day, there is still a hard cap on every skill, where 80% of the skill doesn't even take that long to train.

What this change does, is give players the option to skip that weeks of training to get the relevant skills to a decent level. But the cap is still there, and the total amount of SP on your character will still not decide the outcome of a fight.

This is why people tell you that SP does not have as much of an impact as some people might have you believe. Only a few skills will be relevant to the actual fight, and all skills are capped at lvl 5. In addition, EvE has a paper-rock-scissors PvP system and not one based on stats comparison, meaning that ship choice and knowledge is the more important factor in PvP, opposed to SP.
Public Relation
Outer Space Relic Seekers
#3197 - 2015-10-18 17:14:29 UTC
BirdStrike wrote:
Public Relation wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Public Relation wrote:

Worse then skill point trading are Plex. For someone with enough money, Plex = instant unlimited amount of isk, if you are bright enough you will understand the full consequence for any parties in EvE to have access to unlimited ressources with absolutly no risk.

Only because someone wont or can't earn isk we can have free sub. When someone dumping PLEXes into the game market price droping which also beneficial for players.



I am not debating the right or wrong of plex, i am just stating that EvE have already been prone to the so call "pay to win" syndrome with plex and character bazar.

Skill point trading is nothing worse or better, it wont change nothing in the end regarding "pay to win"... But like the dev have stated it will help new player retention and thats the great thing about it.

Also my opinion on the subject of "pay to win" is simple, isk or skill point wont make you win fight, so no there is no "pay to win" only "pay to get what you want faster".


If SP doesn't make you win a fight then there is no need to implement the system or the character bazaar then is there?

Its a strawman to say you want injectable SP yet more SP doesn't help you win anything, otherwise you'd be out pwning the galaxy in your bantam with civilian gatling.

Good luck however trying to remove point from a brick tanked near 1m SP damnation with your 30dps, I'm pretty sure your out of game epeen doesn't actual help with that.



All this can be also done with time playing the game. There is nothing a playing can buy that someone cannot get playing the game normaly.

Pay to win is when someone can get an unavailable advantage without paying for it.

Player skill > character skill, that cannot be bought. I have seen player beat T2 ship with combat bonuses ship using a T1 ship with no combat bonuses, 1v1.
BirdStrike
Doomheim
#3198 - 2015-10-18 17:21:13 UTC
Public Relation wrote:
BirdStrike wrote:
Public Relation wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Public Relation wrote:

Worse then skill point trading are Plex. For someone with enough money, Plex = instant unlimited amount of isk, if you are bright enough you will understand the full consequence for any parties in EvE to have access to unlimited ressources with absolutly no risk.

Only because someone wont or can't earn isk we can have free sub. When someone dumping PLEXes into the game market price droping which also beneficial for players.



I am not debating the right or wrong of plex, i am just stating that EvE have already been prone to the so call "pay to win" syndrome with plex and character bazar.

Skill point trading is nothing worse or better, it wont change nothing in the end regarding "pay to win"... But like the dev have stated it will help new player retention and thats the great thing about it.

Also my opinion on the subject of "pay to win" is simple, isk or skill point wont make you win fight, so no there is no "pay to win" only "pay to get what you want faster".


If SP doesn't make you win a fight then there is no need to implement the system or the character bazaar then is there?

Its a strawman to say you want injectable SP yet more SP doesn't help you win anything, otherwise you'd be out pwning the galaxy in your bantam with civilian gatling.

Good luck however trying to remove point from a brick tanked near 1m SP damnation with your 30dps, I'm pretty sure your out of game epeen doesn't actual help with that.



All this can be also done with time playing the game. There is nothing a playing can buy that someone cannot get playing the game normaly.

Pay to win is when someone can get an unavailable advantage without paying for it.

Player skill > character skill, that cannot be bought. I have seen player beat T2 ship with combat bonuses ship using a T1 ship with no combat bonuses, 1v1.


You don't need a system to buy SP then do you, you can fly almost all t1 fits within your first month in game. If SP makes no difference and its all about player skill why does this argument even exist?

Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3199 - 2015-10-18 17:23:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Dror
Public Relation wrote:
BirdStrike wrote:
If SP doesn't make you win a fight then there is no need to implement the system or the character bazaar then is there?

Its a strawman to say you want injectable SP yet more SP doesn't help you win anything, otherwise you'd be out pwning the galaxy in your bantam with civilian gatling.

Good luck however trying to remove point from a brick tanked near 1m SP damnation with your 30dps, I'm pretty sure your out of game epeen doesn't actual help with that.



All this can be also done with time playing the game. There is nothing a playing can buy that someone cannot get playing the game normaly.

Pay to win is when someone can get an unavailable advantage without paying for it.

Player skill > character skill, that cannot be bought. I have seen player beat T2 ship with combat bonuses ship using a T1 ship with no combat bonuses, 1v1.

That conversation would benefit from defining P2W.

How about "fun"? That's sorta vague, so there are plenty of definitions of fun through motivation. If you won't look that up, none of it comes from SP as a system -- but playing well, being valuable as a character, and exploring. Fitting a frigate effectively is more fun that t1 nonsense-fittings because of SP. Getting plenty of content from reduced limitations (and thus more newbie effectiveness) is fun for all, from the newbies and veterans learning and instructing, through the increased strategy from increased, actual skill.

SP is all paying to have more fun, whether it's through playing Skillqueue Offline for multiple subs or through injector SP. Is that P2W? Yes.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#3200 - 2015-10-18 17:23:29 UTC
So I read an article on the internet and it said something along the lines of, anyone who is against this change is really just projecting their emotional insecurities and are letting their irrationalities manifest themselves because they as people have zero self-control.

But it's OK, because we, the deciders, understand you're incapable of logical thought so we know to just ignore the things you say and write your name down on The List.

Great change CCP, way to take the initiative in saving EvE.