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Skill Points remapping/buying™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#601 - 2015-10-16 18:06:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Don ZOLA
Dror wrote:
The question is, "What if sov was only challenged by frigate-level play?", even if they still have the option of advanced ships, capitals, etc. The point is that they would get bored because that's no challenge.

Without SP, ships wouldn't just appear from nowhere -- they'd have to be produced and earned the same. They still have to be flown well and strategically.


I think it would actually be quite of challenge and a lots of fun, but since it would exclude too big "natural" part of eve with all ship classes it would be wrong.

Without SP you can just send couple of plexes and afford majority of them without any problems. Also, as isk is so easy to earn nowadays, without sp need you could get enough isk for anything except supercapitals quite fast. On the other hand the accomplishment part is gone, same as gain, honor.

+You become same as everyone else, individuality is lost, everyone can do everything. Of course there is some difference due to personal skills but the big chunk of individual identity is gone.


Dror wrote:
Then why can't a corp like Brave, even if with the help of others, take the sov from Goons or similar? There's a power level for each class of ship, and that's effectiveness. Why would a sandbox game seem interesting if everything from ship progression through industrialization was limited? That's the content: gameplay.. strategy. That's the feature list -- that's why subs come.


It takes time, dedication and efforts. The very same goons 6-7 years ago were bunch of newbs flying around in cheap frigates, dying like lemmings across the universe. But they had what it takes to became what they are now and they became that by waging war on the strongest entities in the game which surpassed them greatly by sp and isk.


Dror wrote:
Links? Increasing power through SP availability? ..Increased speed, tank, and efficiency? That's what SP does ordinarily, and it undermines player skillfulness by making ships perform worse and by limiting industrialization. It's obvious that more options lead to more counters (which is undock potential). More to learn is more to play. More to play is more to be competitive with..


I do not get the point. Links are items as any other in the game, used to remotely boost gang performances. Same as remote reppers remotely boost someones tanking skills. And those skills on their own are "boosted" by the higher levels. Ie guns do more dmg because of skills, boosters boost more etc. So any modules effect is boosted through sp availability?

Skills develop with time, so does SP. Of course there will be some extremely talented people who will actually suffer some until they get to needed sp to maximize items performances but they are still rare and they have to fit in the gameplay as it is for everyone.

Dror wrote:
You're trying to imply that motivation and creativity naturally thrive through ineffective stats and locked game exploration. You're trying to imply that getting buddies in to an immensely gated game is some sort of probability.



What kind of motivation is needed to get something instantly? Which effort is that motivation used for in such case? I think that intrinsic motivation actually pushes you to get a ship or find esteem and extrinsic motivation ie external award is in fun, gain, honor. And I believe that sp it inherently provide that inner feeling of accomplishment. No one is limiting the mastery and depth of the game it just takes effort and time to get to there. I think it would be counter productive to provide it since start, mots of people would briefly try out everything, fail in the most of those tries as they have no game knowledge, get bored fast and quit.

I do not imply that game is not interesting. I think that CCP should provide more content for players who are too lazy to fund fun on their own while training. As we can see on above goons example, they have started like anyone else and they get involved in the game from the start. Ie they had fun while they were training all those skills. They have created it for themselves. Of course there are plenty of lazy people, so if they do not have someone in corp to organize it for them they will never look for fun on their own. And that is their own fault. But it is CCP`s job to handle it if they want to keep them. Or realize that only that 10% are the niche players which are really needed. So just increase the marketing reach to the masses and hope 10% stays :)

If the game was not interesting it would be dead already?


P.S. I do not think we will be able to agree on this subject as we have completely different POV`s on the game. It seems to me that you want instant fun while I strongly stand with opinion that would be against EVE`s nature for the game. If it was like that it would never become what it is. Toughness and complexity is what is needed in my opinion. That will never create players base with 7 digits but that is fine, niche game for niche players. And it is completely fine to disagree, would be stupid if people would agree on everything :)

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#602 - 2015-10-16 19:29:31 UTC
Emboldened replies:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dror wrote:
The question is, "What if sov was only challenged by frigate-level play?", even if they still have the option of advanced ships, capitals, etc. The point is that they would get bored because that's no challenge.

Without SP, ships wouldn't just appear from nowhere -- they'd have to be produced and earned the same. They still have to be flown well and strategically.


I think it would actually be quite of challenge and a lots of fun, but since it would exclude too big "natural" part of eve with all ship classes it would be wrong.

You're deflecting. It limits the scope of the game, which is the reason for the analogy.

Without SP you can just send couple of plexes and afford majority of them without any problems. Also, as isk is so easy to earn nowadays, without sp need you could get enough isk for anything except supercapitals quite fast. On the other hand the accomplishment part is gone, same as gain, honor.

More ISK spent is more content. Content is the whole of the game -- strategy which requires options.

+You become same as everyone else, individuality is lost, everyone can do everything. Of course there is some difference due to personal skills but the big chunk of individual identity is gone.

Alts can be purchased just the same now. With the SP announcement, there's much less personalization from SP, at least up through some amount. There's no basis for saying that "character uniqueness" is worth limiting interest, mastery, and depth.

Dror wrote:
Then why can't a corp like Brave, even if with the help of others, take the sov from Goons or similar? There's a power level for each class of ship, and that's effectiveness. Why would a sandbox game seem interesting if everything from ship progression through industrialization was limited? That's the content: gameplay.. strategy. That's the feature list -- that's why subs come.


It takes time, dedication and efforts. The very same goons 6-7 years ago were bunch of newbs flying around in cheap frigates, dying like lemmings across the universe. But they had what it takes to became what they are now and they became that by waging war on the strongest entities in the game which surpassed them greatly by sp and isk.

The problem with this reply is that Goons are probably bored with having no challenge. They have to sub, else others find the same. It's a huge, interdependent cycle; and you're implying that limiting some of the most enthusiastic and most exploring subs to a tiny percentage of content is "probably" helpful.

[snipped for space]

Dror wrote:
You're trying to imply that motivation and creativity naturally thrive through ineffective stats and locked game exploration. You're trying to imply that getting buddies in to an immensely gated game is some sort of probability.



What kind of motivation is needed to get something instantly? Which effort is that motivation used for in such case?

How is it instant if they have to get the ISK for it (and if it has to be produced)? There's no reason to imply that any decent percentage of subs can PLEX their way through faction BSs and T3s. There also has to be that ISK supply (and PLEX demand). The motivation is playing the game -- saving up for a ship that they've never flown -- figuring out how to fit it -- figuring out how to fly it -- finding a fleet for its support. It's really simple and obvious. You would engage those newbies, but you won't suggest that they have decent stats and unlocks?

I think that intrinsic motivation actually pushes you to get a ship or find esteem and extrinsic motivation ie external award is in fun, gain, honor. And I believe that sp it inherently provide that inner feeling of accomplishment.

Intrinsic motivation can push subs to play more -- that's perfect. There's nothing for it to push if there are no ships to fly. SP isn't gameplay -- there's no mastery -- there's no choice because of limitations -- and there's limited socialization because those starter characters have no throughput.

No one is limiting the mastery and depth of the game it just takes effort and time to get to there. I think it would be counter productive to provide it since start, mots of people would briefly try out everything, fail in the most of those tries as they have no game knowledge, get bored fast and quit.

How is that even plausible? There are hundreds of ships, and many more fitting options.

You say there's no limit on depth and mastery, but counter the same in that statement.

..But it is CCP`s job to handle it if they want to keep them. Or realize that only that 10% are the niche players which are really needed. So just increase the marketing reach to the masses and hope 10% stays :)

P.S. I do not think we will be able to agree on this subject as we have completely different POV`s on the game. It seems to me that you want instant fun while I strongly stand with opinion that would be against EVE`s nature for the game. If it was like that it would never become what it is. Toughness and complexity is what is needed in my opinion. That will never create players base with 7 digits but that is fine, niche game for niche players. And it is completely fine to disagree, would be stupid if people would agree on everything :)

There's no logic in saying that EVE should be a certain way because that's the way it has been -- that's a logical fallacy, an appeal on tradition.

It's of no decent prerogative to imply that the game should have few players and little content (and for reasons you apparently can't explain).

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#603 - 2015-10-16 20:27:01 UTC
You're deflecting. It limits the scope of the game, which is the reason for the analogy.

I am not. I explicitly wrote that even I do think it would be fun it is wrong to do as it limits the game in unnatural way.

Without SP you can just send couple of plexes and afford majority of them without any problems. Also, as isk is so easy to earn nowadays, without sp need you could get enough isk for anything except supercapitals quite fast. On the other hand the accomplishment part is gone, same as gain, honor.


More ISK spent is more content. Content is the whole of the game -- strategy which requires options.

Does not have to be necessary since you can easily get to the point where you do not have reasonable ways to spend isk.
And again I did not say it is wrong thing I just stated it is very easy to make it. Though I understand that some players who want everything and want it now might find the lack of isk (or time/cash needed to get it) disturbing.



Alts can be purchased just the same now. With the SP announcement, there's much less personalization from SP, at least up through some amount. There's no basis for saying that "character uniqueness" is worth limiting interest, mastery, and depth.

I think personalization is good thing, bonding you with your char and the game. Character uniqueness is in no way limiting interest, mastery or depth as every single character can be developed in every single direction.


The problem with this reply is that Goons are probably bored with having no challenge. They have to sub, else others find the same. It's a huge, interdependent cycle; and you're implying that limiting some of the most enthusiastic and most exploring subs to a tiny percentage of content is "probably" helpful.

That is the normal in the powerblocks / powerhouses lifespan. Most powerhouses through eve history had periods without challenge. Then they either disband / die to internal stuff or new challenger arises. This change will do nothing to impact that circle.

And my point was not their current state of affairs but their beginnings, when they had their fun regardless of their lack of skills or sp. Ie the point is that you always can have fun if you organize yourself, if you are pro active.


How is it instant if they have to get the ISK for it (and if it has to be produced)? There's no reason to imply that any decent percentage of subs can PLEX their way through faction BSs and T3s. There also has to be that ISK supply (and PLEX demand). The motivation is playing the game -- saving up for a ship that they've never flown -- figuring out how to fit it -- figuring out how to fly it -- finding a fleet for its support. It's really simple and obvious. You would engage those newbies, but you won't suggest that they have decent stats and unlocks?

I have replied with this referring to your idea of "unlocking" everything for everyone in order to give them full mastery/content/depth. As mentioned above, isk is quite easy to make nowadays, so it would not be major limiting factor except for supercapitals or extremely expensive fits. I have no problem engaging anyone, dying to others regardless of your skills & sp is part of the game and what made EVE what it is.


Intrinsic motivation can push subs to play more -- that's perfect. There's nothing for it to push if there are no ships to fly. SP isn't gameplay -- there's no mastery -- there's no choice because of limitations -- and there's limited socialization because those starter characters have no throughput.

But there are plenty of ships to fly. Every single class has multiple ships. It is up to you what will you fly and how will you use it. And there is always space for motivation to kick in and push to train for additional ones. I really do not want to go in explaining why it would be wrong to "unlock" everything from the start. If that is what you feel then we really have nothing to discuss. There is always choice, you can find ways to have fun regardless of "limits".

Limited socialization in what sense? Since the start players are placed in corporations and their social "life" depends only on them and their social skills.


How is that even plausible? There are hundreds of ships, and many more fitting options.

You say there's no limit on depth and mastery, but counter the same in that statement.

There is no limit, it just takes time. Game for patient and persistent people :) Simple as that.



There's no logic in saying that EVE should be a certain way because that's the way it has been -- that's a logical fallacy, an appeal on tradition.

I do not appeal on it because of the tradition, but because of game model which has obviously worked to find its niche and players for it. Spaceships are serious business. Not for everyone.


It's of no decent prerogative to imply that the game should have few players and little content (and for reasons you apparently can't explain).

I never said that game should have few players. But being niche game it`s target audience is quite different from other games. Differentiation has made it what it is. And there is plenty of content for those who are not lazy to be pro active. There is not much content for the ones who want everything on the plate. And I think I explained pretty much everything I mentioned, not sure which part you have missed.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#604 - 2015-10-16 21:21:37 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
I am not [deflecting]. I explicitly wrote that even I do think it would be fun [sov's attackers just getting frigates] it is wrong to do as it limits the game in unnatural way.

So, you're saying artificially limiting players is unnatural. That's what SP is. Players can learn the game much more efficiently than SP can allow.

Without SP you can just send couple of plexes and afford majority of them without any problems. Also, as isk is so easy to earn nowadays, without sp need you could get enough isk for anything except supercapitals quite fast. On the other hand the accomplishment part is gone, same as gain, honor.

Getting amounts of ISK and items is great. Then they can provide content, else what are they good for?

[More ISK spent is more content. Content is the whole of the game -- strategy which requires options.]

Does not have to be necessary since you can easily get to the point where you do not have reasonable ways to spend isk.
And again I did not say it is wrong thing I just stated it is very easy to make it. Though I understand that some players who want everything and want it now might find the lack of isk (or time/cash needed to get it) disturbing.

If you can't spend ISK, then you stop farming. Then, you spend it in sov or newbies or corporations -- strategy.

I think personalization is good thing, bonding you with your char and the game. Character uniqueness is in no way limiting interest, mastery or depth as every single character can be developed in every single direction.

Character personalization can come from experiences and renoun. Skill point distributions that other players don't ever notice is a pretty underwhelming sense of progression, especially because the depth of the game is limited to what SP has come.

--

[The problem with this reply is that Goons are probably bored with having no challenge. They have to sub, else others find the same. It's a huge, interdependent cycle; and you're implying that limiting some of the most enthusiastic and most exploring subs to a tiny percentage of content is "probably" helpful.]

That is the normal in the powerblocks / powerhouses lifespan. Most powerhouses through eve history had periods without challenge. Then they either disband / die to internal stuff or new challenger arises. This change will do nothing to impact that circle.

You say it's normal, but it's a direct result of SP limiting effectiveness.

But there are plenty of ships to fly. Every single class has multiple ships.

Almost every ship from every class and faction has cross-training. Beyond that, being on par with industralists and their maxed efficiencies seems impractical; and that all is a huge barrier to actually playing and enjoying the game.

[There's no logic in saying that EVE should be a certain way because that's the way it has been -- that's a logical fallacy, an appeal on tradition.]

I do not appeal on it because of the tradition, but because of game model which has obviously worked to find its niche and players for it. Spaceships are serious business. Not for everyone.

It's the same. What's true is scientific research and commonality. Those exhibit what's necessary for sub retention, through motivation and game theory and decision theory. Decision theory states that there's "a tendency to strongly prefer avoiding losses than acquiring gains. Most studies suggest that losses are twice as powerful, psychologically, as gains", which is loss aversion. Subs have much less reason, after fantasizing about the depth of the game and hearing about the great engagements, to stay with the game -- subbing to what end for gameplay they have yet to experience?

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#605 - 2015-10-16 22:32:43 UTC
Dror wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
I am not [deflecting]. I explicitly wrote that even I do think it would be fun [sov's attackers just getting frigates] it is wrong to do as it limits the game in unnatural way.

So, you're saying artificially limiting players is unnatural. That's what SP is. Players can learn the game much more efficiently than SP can allow.

Without SP you can just send couple of plexes and afford majority of them without any problems. Also, as isk is so easy to earn nowadays, without sp need you could get enough isk for anything except supercapitals quite fast. On the other hand the accomplishment part is gone, same as gain, honor.

Getting amounts of ISK and items is great. Then they can provide content, else what are they good for?

[More ISK spent is more content. Content is the whole of the game -- strategy which requires options.]

Does not have to be necessary since you can easily get to the point where you do not have reasonable ways to spend isk.
And again I did not say it is wrong thing I just stated it is very easy to make it. Though I understand that some players who want everything and want it now might find the lack of isk (or time/cash needed to get it) disturbing.

If you can't spend ISK, then you stop farming. Then, you spend it in sov or newbies or corporations -- strategy.

I think personalization is good thing, bonding you with your char and the game. Character uniqueness is in no way limiting interest, mastery or depth as every single character can be developed in every single direction.

Character personalization can come from experiences and renoun. Skill point distributions that other players don't ever notice is a pretty underwhelming sense of progression, especially because the depth of the game is limited to what SP has come.

--

[The problem with this reply is that Goons are probably bored with having no challenge. They have to sub, else others find the same. It's a huge, interdependent cycle; and you're implying that limiting some of the most enthusiastic and most exploring subs to a tiny percentage of content is "probably" helpful.]

That is the normal in the powerblocks / powerhouses lifespan. Most powerhouses through eve history had periods without challenge. Then they either disband / die to internal stuff or new challenger arises. This change will do nothing to impact that circle.

You say it's normal, but it's a direct result of SP limiting effectiveness.

But there are plenty of ships to fly. Every single class has multiple ships.

Almost every ship from every class and faction has cross-training. Beyond that, being on par with industralists and their maxed efficiencies seems impractical; and that all is a huge barrier to actually playing and enjoying the game.

[There's no logic in saying that EVE should be a certain way because that's the way it has been -- that's a logical fallacy, an appeal on tradition.]

I do not appeal on it because of the tradition, but because of game model which has obviously worked to find its niche and players for it. Spaceships are serious business. Not for everyone.

It's the same. What's true is scientific research and commonality. Those exhibit what's necessary for sub retention, through motivation and game theory and decision theory. Decision theory states that there's "a tendency to strongly prefer avoiding losses than acquiring gains. Most studies suggest that losses are twice as powerful, psychologically, as gains", which is loss aversion. Subs have much less reason, after fantasizing about the depth of the game and hearing about the great engagements, to stay with the game -- subbing to what end for gameplay they have yet to experience?



Sorry but I cannot discuss any further with you as it would be waste of time. You are "pushing" for everything I find faulty in EVE. You want to make it easier and make CS gungame out of it, where you just spawn, choose ships and weapons and go pew pew to measure "skills". EVE is so much more than that. Finding excuse in "limitiations" while we have all started with limitations, even much bigger than nowadays and that did not stop people from having fun nor being pro active and using creativity to find/create content. Yes, people had fun since day 1, be it in economy, politics, wars aspect of the game.

It is niche market and its toughness has made it what it is.

Your ideas are in my perspective wrong on so many levels that I do not even want to talk about it, EVE like that would not last more than 2-3 years. Nothing personal, I can completely understand that we are simply different persons with different preferences when it comes to gaming, just better to avoid wasting time for both of us. Have a nice day.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#606 - 2015-10-17 10:48:13 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dror wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
I am not [deflecting]. I explicitly wrote that even I do think it would be fun [sov's attackers just getting frigates] it is wrong to do as it limits the game in unnatural way.

So, you're saying artificially limiting players is unnatural. That's what SP is. Players can learn the game much more efficiently than SP can allow.

Without SP you can just send couple of plexes and afford majority of them without any problems. Also, as isk is so easy to earn nowadays, without sp need you could get enough isk for anything except supercapitals quite fast. On the other hand the accomplishment part is gone, same as gain, honor.

Getting amounts of ISK and items is great. Then they can provide content, else what are they good for?

[More ISK spent is more content. Content is the whole of the game -- strategy which requires options.]

Does not have to be necessary since you can easily get to the point where you do not have reasonable ways to spend isk.
And again I did not say it is wrong thing I just stated it is very easy to make it. Though I understand that some players who want everything and want it now might find the lack of isk (or time/cash needed to get it) disturbing.

If you can't spend ISK, then you stop farming. Then, you spend it in sov or newbies or corporations -- strategy.

I think personalization is good thing, bonding you with your char and the game. Character uniqueness is in no way limiting interest, mastery or depth as every single character can be developed in every single direction.

Character personalization can come from experiences and renoun. Skill point distributions that other players don't ever notice is a pretty underwhelming sense of progression, especially because the depth of the game is limited to what SP has come.

--

[The problem with this reply is that Goons are probably bored with having no challenge. They have to sub, else others find the same. It's a huge, interdependent cycle; and you're implying that limiting some of the most enthusiastic and most exploring subs to a tiny percentage of content is "probably" helpful.]

That is the normal in the powerblocks / powerhouses lifespan. Most powerhouses through eve history had periods without challenge. Then they either disband / die to internal stuff or new challenger arises. This change will do nothing to impact that circle.

You say it's normal, but it's a direct result of SP limiting effectiveness.

But there are plenty of ships to fly. Every single class has multiple ships.

Almost every ship from every class and faction has cross-training. Beyond that, being on par with industralists and their maxed efficiencies seems impractical; and that all is a huge barrier to actually playing and enjoying the game.

[There's no logic in saying that EVE should be a certain way because that's the way it has been -- that's a logical fallacy, an appeal on tradition.]

I do not appeal on it because of the tradition, but because of game model which has obviously worked to find its niche and players for it. Spaceships are serious business. Not for everyone.

It's the same. What's true is scientific research and commonality. Those exhibit what's necessary for sub retention, through motivation and game theory and decision theory. Decision theory states that there's "a tendency to strongly prefer avoiding losses than acquiring gains. Most studies suggest that losses are twice as powerful, psychologically, as gains", which is loss aversion. Subs have much less reason, after fantasizing about the depth of the game and hearing about the great engagements, to stay with the game -- subbing to what end for gameplay they have yet to experience?



Sorry but I cannot discuss any further with you as it would be waste of time. You are "pushing" for everything I find faulty in EVE. You want to make it easier and make CS gungame out of it, where you just spawn, choose ships and weapons and go pew pew to measure "skills". EVE is so much more than that. Finding excuse in "limitiations" while we have all started with limitations, even much bigger than nowadays and that did not stop people from having fun nor being pro active and using creativity to find/create content. Yes, people had fun since day 1, be it in economy, politics, wars aspect of the game.

It is niche market and its toughness has made it what it is.

Your ideas are in my perspective wrong on so many levels that I do not even want to talk about it, EVE like that would not last more than 2-3 years. Nothing personal, I can completely understand that we are simply different persons with different preferences when it comes to gaming, just better to avoid wasting time for both of us. Have a nice day.


That game contrast is a false equivalence. This game's tools require vasts amounts of minerals, hauling, and production.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#607 - 2015-10-17 11:17:52 UTC
Dror wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dror wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
I am not [deflecting]. I explicitly wrote that even I do think it would be fun [sov's attackers just getting frigates] it is wrong to do as it limits the game in unnatural way.

So, you're saying artificially limiting players is unnatural. That's what SP is. Players can learn the game much more efficiently than SP can allow.

Without SP you can just send couple of plexes and afford majority of them without any problems. Also, as isk is so easy to earn nowadays, without sp need you could get enough isk for anything except supercapitals quite fast. On the other hand the accomplishment part is gone, same as gain, honor.

Getting amounts of ISK and items is great. Then they can provide content, else what are they good for?

[More ISK spent is more content. Content is the whole of the game -- strategy which requires options.]

Does not have to be necessary since you can easily get to the point where you do not have reasonable ways to spend isk.
And again I did not say it is wrong thing I just stated it is very easy to make it. Though I understand that some players who want everything and want it now might find the lack of isk (or time/cash needed to get it) disturbing.

If you can't spend ISK, then you stop farming. Then, you spend it in sov or newbies or corporations -- strategy.

I think personalization is good thing, bonding you with your char and the game. Character uniqueness is in no way limiting interest, mastery or depth as every single character can be developed in every single direction.

Character personalization can come from experiences and renoun. Skill point distributions that other players don't ever notice is a pretty underwhelming sense of progression, especially because the depth of the game is limited to what SP has come.

--

[The problem with this reply is that Goons are probably bored with having no challenge. They have to sub, else others find the same. It's a huge, interdependent cycle; and you're implying that limiting some of the most enthusiastic and most exploring subs to a tiny percentage of content is "probably" helpful.]

That is the normal in the powerblocks / powerhouses lifespan. Most powerhouses through eve history had periods without challenge. Then they either disband / die to internal stuff or new challenger arises. This change will do nothing to impact that circle.

You say it's normal, but it's a direct result of SP limiting effectiveness.

But there are plenty of ships to fly. Every single class has multiple ships.

Almost every ship from every class and faction has cross-training. Beyond that, being on par with industralists and their maxed efficiencies seems impractical; and that all is a huge barrier to actually playing and enjoying the game.

[There's no logic in saying that EVE should be a certain way because that's the way it has been -- that's a logical fallacy, an appeal on tradition.]

I do not appeal on it because of the tradition, but because of game model which has obviously worked to find its niche and players for it. Spaceships are serious business. Not for everyone.

It's the same. What's true is scientific research and commonality. Those exhibit what's necessary for sub retention, through motivation and game theory and decision theory. Decision theory states that there's "a tendency to strongly prefer avoiding losses than acquiring gains. Most studies suggest that losses are twice as powerful, psychologically, as gains", which is loss aversion. Subs have much less reason, after fantasizing about the depth of the game and hearing about the great engagements, to stay with the game -- subbing to what end for gameplay they have yet to experience?



Sorry but I cannot discuss any further with you as it would be waste of time. You are "pushing" for everything I find faulty in EVE. You want to make it easier and make CS gungame out of it, where you just spawn, choose ships and weapons and go pew pew to measure "skills". EVE is so much more than that. Finding excuse in "limitiations" while we have all started with limitations, even much bigger than nowadays and that did not stop people from having fun nor being pro active and using creativity to find/create content. Yes, people had fun since day 1, be it in economy, politics, wars aspect of the game.

It is niche market and its toughness has made it what it is.

Your ideas are in my perspective wrong on so many levels that I do not even want to talk about it, EVE like that would not last more than 2-3 years. Nothing personal, I can completely understand that we are simply different persons with different preferences when it comes to gaming, just better to avoid wasting time for both of us. Have a nice day.


That game contrast is a false equivalence. This game's tools require vasts amounts of minerals, hauling, and production.


I agree. And that`s how it was since the start (except much harder to earn than nowadays) and no one complained about it, instead we made this game what it is.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#608 - 2015-10-17 11:28:21 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dror wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dror wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
I am not [deflecting]. I explicitly wrote that even I do think it would be fun [sov's attackers just getting frigates] it is wrong to do as it limits the game in unnatural way.

So, you're saying artificially limiting players is unnatural. That's what SP is. Players can learn the game much more efficiently than SP can allow.

Without SP you can just send couple of plexes and afford majority of them without any problems. Also, as isk is so easy to earn nowadays, without sp need you could get enough isk for anything except supercapitals quite fast. On the other hand the accomplishment part is gone, same as gain, honor.

Getting amounts of ISK and items is great. Then they can provide content, else what are they good for?

[More ISK spent is more content. Content is the whole of the game -- strategy which requires options.]

Does not have to be necessary since you can easily get to the point where you do not have reasonable ways to spend isk.
And again I did not say it is wrong thing I just stated it is very easy to make it. Though I understand that some players who want everything and want it now might find the lack of isk (or time/cash needed to get it) disturbing.

If you can't spend ISK, then you stop farming. Then, you spend it in sov or newbies or corporations -- strategy.

I think personalization is good thing, bonding you with your char and the game. Character uniqueness is in no way limiting interest, mastery or depth as every single character can be developed in every single direction.

Character personalization can come from experiences and renoun. Skill point distributions that other players don't ever notice is a pretty underwhelming sense of progression, especially because the depth of the game is limited to what SP has come.

--

[The problem with this reply is that Goons are probably bored with having no challenge. They have to sub, else others find the same. It's a huge, interdependent cycle; and you're implying that limiting some of the most enthusiastic and most exploring subs to a tiny percentage of content is "probably" helpful.]

That is the normal in the powerblocks / powerhouses lifespan. Most powerhouses through eve history had periods without challenge. Then they either disband / die to internal stuff or new challenger arises. This change will do nothing to impact that circle.

You say it's normal, but it's a direct result of SP limiting effectiveness.

But there are plenty of ships to fly. Every single class has multiple ships.

Almost every ship from every class and faction has cross-training. Beyond that, being on par with industralists and their maxed efficiencies seems impractical; and that all is a huge barrier to actually playing and enjoying the game.

[There's no logic in saying that EVE should be a certain way because that's the way it has been -- that's a logical fallacy, an appeal on tradition.]

I do not appeal on it because of the tradition, but because of game model which has obviously worked to find its niche and players for it. Spaceships are serious business. Not for everyone.

It's the same. What's true is scientific research and commonality. Those exhibit what's necessary for sub retention, through motivation and game theory and decision theory. Decision theory states that there's "a tendency to strongly prefer avoiding losses than acquiring gains. Most studies suggest that losses are twice as powerful, psychologically, as gains", which is loss aversion. Subs have much less reason, after fantasizing about the depth of the game and hearing about the great engagements, to stay with the game -- subbing to what end for gameplay they have yet to experience?



Sorry but I cannot discuss any further with you as it would be waste of time. You are "pushing" for everything I find faulty in EVE. You want to make it easier and make CS gungame out of it, where you just spawn, choose ships and weapons and go pew pew to measure "skills". EVE is so much more than that. Finding excuse in "limitiations" while we have all started with limitations, even much bigger than nowadays and that did not stop people from having fun nor being pro active and using creativity to find/create content. Yes, people had fun since day 1, be it in economy, politics, wars aspect of the game.

It is niche market and its toughness has made it what it is.

Your ideas are in my perspective wrong on so many levels that I do not even want to talk about it, EVE like that would not last more than 2-3 years. Nothing personal, I can completely understand that we are simply different persons with different preferences when it comes to gaming, just better to avoid wasting time for both of us. Have a nice day.


That game contrast is a false equivalence. This game's tools require vasts amounts of minerals, hauling, and production.


I agree. And that`s how it was since the start (except much harder to earn than nowadays) and no one complained about it, instead we made this game what it is.

That's exactly how it would be without an XP system, of sorts, and its limiting character progression and interest in playing the game (effectively). There are still limits to capitals. That scarcity -- which comes from abundance -- improves logistics depth. That is, more capitals and expensive ships being purchased makes industry a strategic niche. Newbies flying a capital-level doctrine not only allows the infiltration of sov, but also improves everything about their experience -- from their value through what they get to learn. This is also content for veterans. It's win-win.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#609 - 2015-10-17 11:38:09 UTC
Dror wrote:


I agree. And that`s how it was since the start (except much harder to earn than nowadays) and no one complained about it, instead we made this game what it is.

That's exactly how it would be without an XP system, of sorts, and its limiting character progression and interest in playing the game (effectively). There are still limits to capitals. That scarcity -- which comes from abundance -- improves logistics depth. That is, more capitals and expensive ships being purchased makes industry a strategic niche. Newbies flying a capital-level doctrine not only allows the infiltration of sov, but also improves everything about their experience -- from their value through what they get to learn. This is also content for veterans. It's win-win.[/quote]

I have already answered why i think its totally wrong. So we are back to wasting each others time, therefore I`m out, have a nice day :)

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#610 - 2015-10-17 11:41:03 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
I have already answered why i think its totally wrong. So we are back to wasting each others time, therefore I`m out, have a nice day :)

Yet, then you agreed that the contrast made, about CS, is a false equivalence. So, what is it?

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#611 - 2015-10-17 13:01:31 UTC
Dror wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
I have already answered why i think its totally wrong. So we are back to wasting each others time, therefore I`m out, have a nice day :)

Yet, then you agreed that the contrast made, about CS, is a false equivalence. So, what is it?


Sorry, I have not replied properly as I was in rush. I agreed to the 2nd sentence - This game's tools require vasts amounts of minerals, hauling, and production.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Don Pera Saissore
#612 - 2015-10-17 13:05:52 UTC
Dont do it CCP, dont turn this game in to ****
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#613 - 2015-10-17 13:47:30 UTC
Great change CCP +1

Thanks for allowing those of us who missed the bus the first couple of times around to get on board and finally arrive at our destinations.

Try to ignore all the selfish people letting their imaginations get the better of them.
Cardcaptor Sakura
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#614 - 2015-10-18 15:44:59 UTC
Would like to reiterate how much of a disaster this would be...
If thing goes through..
Then ANYBODY..can just buy a bunch of these skill packs..(even one day old, first time players)....AND INSTANTLY GET TITAN PILOTING SKILLS WITHOUT EFFORT...

PAY TO WIN...TOO OP

Titans are beastly monsters and rightfully....RIGHTFULLY require half a year of training to even be able to pilot just the ship itself.
Leonardo Adami
Doomheim
#615 - 2015-10-18 16:11:42 UTC
Cardcaptor Sakura wrote:
Would like to reiterate how much of a disaster this would be...
If thing goes through..
Then ANYBODY..can just buy a bunch of these skill packs..(even one day old, first time players)....AND INSTANTLY GET TITAN PILOTING SKILLS WITHOUT EFFORT...

PAY TO WIN...TOO OP

Titans are beastly monsters and rightfully....RIGHTFULLY require half a year of training to even be able to pilot just the ship itself.


Wrong thread buddy, also your end of world view is cancerous for eve, soo, stop, just stop.
Tyrant Scorn
#616 - 2015-10-18 23:54:43 UTC
F*ck CCP, what took you so long to even implement this in the first place. The next step would be to unlearn skills, so you can sort of remap your skill tree... LIKE EVERY OTHER MMO currently available.

I am happy to see CCP is catching up with the 90's... I mean. with 2015...

The Tyrant King

YouTube | Twitter | Twitch
Lis Aivo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#617 - 2015-10-19 12:25:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Lis Aivo
@Singur Augurao

So you basicly want to train your skills slowly to beat newbies easily later on ? Is that what you call elitism ? Because you are not gonna reach top sp level if you implying this by "elitism". So you dont have to wait just quit, because you are not having it. just being more royalist than the king. you are the example of person who is poor yet defend capitalism.

I hope you quit already before update comes. I really dont want to see this kind of mentallity in Eve community.


@Don ZOLA

Please dont speak like you do care about game. Come on just come clear. You dont need to hide behind that cr*p argument. You just want to boost your ego to higher levels.

and guess what. CCP already showed that they dont have any intention to keep especially older "elite" players by that new SOV rebalance. They are just trying to figure out the way that actually bring more new players to Eve, thats it.

As long as there is new players coming to game its all good. CCP is a business, not an ego booster charity.
Singur Augurao
Mohist Army
Mohist Alliance
#618 - 2015-10-19 12:31:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Singur Augurao
Lis Aivo wrote:
@Singur Augurao

So you basicly want to train your skills slowly to beat newbies easily later on ? Is that what you call elitism ? Because you are not gonna reach top sp level if you implying this by "elitism". So you dont have to wait just quit, because you are not having it. just being more royalist than the king. you are the example of person who is poor yet defend capitalism.

I hope you quit already before update comes. I really dont want to see this kind of mentallity in Eve community.


And who exactly are you to decide what kind of mentality can be seen in Eve community ?
If you think that this game is about "beating people" , well u're wrong. I can recommend you some other popular MMo's played mostly by 13yo kids, where u can skill up faster and getting instant PVP.
Singur Augurao
Mohist Army
Mohist Alliance
#619 - 2015-10-19 12:44:46 UTC
Lis Aivo wrote:


As long as there is new players coming to game its all good. CCP is a business, not an ego booster charity.


What about people leaving the game, because if this is going to go live, people will leave. Just read the whole thread , starting page one.
Lis Aivo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#620 - 2015-10-19 12:46:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Lis Aivo
You dont even answer my question. Guess you dont have one. Not surprised at all. Can ask again tho

"What exactly elitism is?" What do you refer by it in Eve exactly ?

and to your question. I am just a guy in Eve community and i have right to want it be more healthy. But your mentality is not helping. I dont want Eve to be a game that a tool for people to boost their ego.


Edit: There are more happy people than salty ones. So doesnt matter how much of them are going to leave. It will be good update for newcomers. So overall its a win situation