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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Dave Stark
#3081 - 2015-10-18 13:44:08 UTC
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:
I am not doubt that you have that impression. I was merely pointing out to you, that you failed to grasp the essence of my argument. Your utterly wrong paraphrase of my post above only proves my point. And strenghtens my argument further.


your argument was proven wrong by the devblog, not me.
Dave Stark
#3082 - 2015-10-18 13:45:09 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
I see then that means you must be a Lawyer in RL and this is one of your "Bad Habits".


yeah, why not.

i'm a lawyer. we'll go with it.

if we've stopped trying to guess my occupation, we can always get back to discussing the devblog?
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3083 - 2015-10-18 13:45:33 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Jared Khanar wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Jared Khanar wrote:
Simply ty sp generation non-linear to character age if on a payed account - the older the char gets - the lower the generation - newer players catching up - problem solved
Ehmmmmm..... that's already the case, go check the time vs. benefit of lvl V skills.


EDIT: thats a different mechanic i believe - i refer to generall / overall sp generation speed not bound to a specific skill or its level
Yeah, I got that. But the only point of SP is to get skills, and the only point of skills is to do stuff and do it better.

The rapidly increasing lvl I-II-III-IV-V SP requirements compared to the linear benefits that each level gives already reach the practical result you're suggesting: newbros getting closer to vets faster, in terms of what they can fly and skill-related bonuses.



Yes it is - but look around - all the ones crying about not having enough sp to do anything ... !?
Ignoring the fact that a 1-5 month old character can survive and succeed even solo in low, null, wh if the player knows what he / shes doing / how fun can be gained / depending on the self choosen goals ...
How true... when I started I had a 80 kills to 120 losses ratio as a solo 1.5 month-old player in lowsec... was a blast!

Problem is, EVE is really a unique game. In almost every other game 'catching up' is indeed an issue... CCP is not doing a good enough job in making this difference clear to new players.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#3084 - 2015-10-18 13:53:25 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Delegate wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Delegate wrote:
Actually it does change a lot in new player experience. After this, a player starting the game will be unable to compete not only with older players but also with those of his peers that bought SP. So he will receive a very clear message: first pay for the sub, then grid/pay for the ISK and finally pay for the progress (or be left behind). There is a major difference from character bazaar here. A player with say 2-4m SP isn't going to engage in activities targeted by a 30m SP char bough off the bazaar. But he will meet players of similar age that performs better than him, because, for example, they bought 1.2m SP in core skills. After this change retention in new subs will drop.
It could change new players' perception, which unfortunately is not good.


For a moment of purely academic fun, I tried to pinpoint the difference between new player experience and how new player "perceive" the game. Academic, because we both know that the decision to keep playing comes from how you perceive the game.


Ah this is good. Dave can you get this? If not, reread it over and over again until you do. Then apologize for posting rubbish for the past 155+ pages in this thread.


how new players perceive the game is a complete irrelevance. it has nothing to do with the discussion.

we're talking about buying and selling SP not the NPE.


It is totally relevant, if this goes live it will affect the NPE to deny that is ridiculous. How it will be perceived is open to debate, but I think a fair case can be made that many will see buying skillpoints as necessary.
Dave Stark
#3085 - 2015-10-18 13:55:17 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
It is totally relevant, if this goes live it will affect the NPE to deny that is ridiculous. How it will be perceived is open to debate, but I think a fair case can be made that many will see buying skillpoints as necessary.


the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.
Jared Khanar
#3086 - 2015-10-18 13:56:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Dave Stark wrote:

the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.


How can we already BUY and SELL SP (not characters - sp!) Even after all these years i´m here i haven´t heard of it - please teach me

Economic Services

trading spacepixels
Robert Sawyer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3087 - 2015-10-18 13:57:11 UTC
Oh God, please no... No! No! NOOOOOO!!!!

On a serious side note, this whole sh*t is practically "SP for real life money". This will introduce a pay-to-win philosophy that will drive noobs and veterans alike away from the game as literally EVERYBODY will be able to do anything - you'll have new players buying PLEX and the SP to fly Dreadnoughts within days.

This will f*ck up sovereignty, PvE and PvP gameplay. DO NOT DO THIS CCP OR I SWEAR TO GOD THAT I WILL QUIT.

"And when, at last, the moment is yours, that agony will become your greatest triumph."
Dave Stark
#3088 - 2015-10-18 13:58:01 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.


How can we already BUY and SELL SP (not characters - sp!) Even after all these years i´m here i haven´t heard of it - please teach me


do i really have to wheel out the still unanswered "which system am i describing" question?

really?
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3089 - 2015-10-18 13:58:13 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
It is totally relevant, if this goes live it will affect the NPE to deny that is ridiculous. How it will be perceived is open to debate, but I think a fair case can be made that many will see buying skillpoints as necessary.
Necessary for what?

Flying after 1 day ships that everybody else in 12 years of EVE flew after 6 months?

How can that be necessary, as opposed to optional, if countless players in EVE history survived perfectly and had fun without this new SP-trading thing?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#3090 - 2015-10-18 13:59:35 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
It is totally relevant, if this goes live it will affect the NPE to deny that is ridiculous. How it will be perceived is open to debate, but I think a fair case can be made that many will see buying skillpoints as necessary.


the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.


The quantity is what's new, as you like saying so often, it's in the dev blog, the granular nature of these skill packets will make it more normal for new guys to buy them where it would be less usual to buy an entire character. This comes with a downside as new guys who can't afford a sub and skill packets will see their immediate peers (as someone else already pointed out) advancing more quickly than them. Your argument is obtuse and fails to recognise the importance of how new players perceive things.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3091 - 2015-10-18 13:59:51 UTC
Robert Sawyer wrote:
Oh God, please no... No! No! NOOOOOO!!!!

On a serious side note, this whole sh*t is practically "SP for real life money". This will introduce a pay-to-win philosophy that will drive noobs and veterans alike away from the game as literally EVERYBODY will be able to do anything - you'll have new players buying PLEX and the SP to fly Dreadnoughts within days.

This will f*ck up sovereignty, PvE and PvP gameplay. DO NOT DO THIS CCP OR I SWEAR TO GOD THAT I WILL QUIT.
I totally look forward to more noobs in blingy ships in Black Rise.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
#3092 - 2015-10-18 13:59:55 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:
I am not doubt that you have that impression. I was merely pointing out to you, that you failed to grasp the essence of my argument. Your utterly wrong paraphrase of my post above only proves my point. And strenghtens my argument further.


your argument was proven wrong by the devblog, not me.


Actually the devblog did not deal with my argument. You are mixing up cause and effect here. Exact thinking will be necessary if you want to take place in this discourse. I gave you a very specifc answer to your argument. If you wish to continue giving your subjective evaluations en masse here, avoiding to take up the actual argument you are of course free to do so.

Please be advised that my actual response to you is still uncontradicted in this case. You would not be the only one thinking along this line by the way. Most of the arguments by the dopers in this forum and others are substantially wrong. See my original post in this thread.

Last time that “greed was good”, the information was leaked. In 2015 it was posted.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3093 - 2015-10-18 14:00:11 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Jared Khanar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.


How can we already BUY and SELL SP (not characters - sp!) Even after all these years i´m here i haven´t heard of it - please teach me


do i really have to wheel out the still unanswered "which system am i describing" question?

really?


Yes because ive answered your question earlier to which i doubt you even read properly about bazaar Vs TSP and its vastly different

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Jared Khanar
#3094 - 2015-10-18 14:00:48 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Jared Khanar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.


How can we already BUY and SELL SP (not characters - sp!) Even after all these years i´m here i haven´t heard of it - please teach me


do i really have to wheel out the still unanswered "which system am i describing" question?

really?


Yes, please be gracious to this stupid person i am most of the time :)

Economic Services

trading spacepixels
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3095 - 2015-10-18 14:01:06 UTC
If we base a skill packet on 500k SP, an optimal remap and +4's = 1 every 8 days @ 300 mil cost + skill books (based on current plex prices).
Then you have the additional cost of the ‘Transneural Skill Packet’ to enable you to sell those SP.
100 mil has been thrown about a lot as a good price for this product;

If the ‘Transneural Skill Packet’ is available on the market for 100 mil (dependent on how much CCP decide to sell them for and Aurum market prices), your looking at a break even price of around 400 mil for that 500k SP on the market. A little under 1 isk per SP and that is only until players decide they want to make more isk from their unwanted but now marketable SP, at which time the market prices will steadily rise. I would estimate a price of between 650 and 700 mil after about 3 months, starting at around 900 mil at release.

This is Eve, when it comes to making isk everyone wants optimal income, so players with SP they want to sell will want to make as much as possible from that sale. What ever CCP's intention, these skill packages are not going to be cheap.

-- - -- - -- - -- - --
As for the new player retention aspect and skill points added for established characters;
Trial account starts out with 1 mil unallocated SP with another 2 mil added at the time it becomes a subscription
Include links to EveMon, EveHq, etc in a startup information package.
3 – 10 million skillpoints = 500,000 skillpoints added - Unlimited use
10 – 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 skillpoints added - Unlimited use to 50 mil SP
50 – 80 million skillpoints = 350,000 skillpoints added - Limited to 6 in a 12 month period
> 80 million skillpoints = 250,000 skillpoints added - Limited to 4 in a 12 month period

You want to maintain the "prestige" of dedicating time, effort and money into a single highly skilled account - The skill packets need to offer an incentive to do so.
50k SP is less than 24hrs of training time - You are essentially telling players that once they reach 80,000,001 SP - We no longer care about you.
(not every 100 mil SP account holder is space rich, some don't care about being rich but want the same opportunity as others to build their accounts)

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
#3096 - 2015-10-18 14:02:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Interfly Ghormenheist
Dave Stark wrote:
Jared Khanar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.


How can we already BUY and SELL SP (not characters - sp!) Even after all these years i´m here i haven´t heard of it - please teach me


do i really have to wheel out the still unanswered "which system am i describing" question?

really?


Yes, you do. Otherwise you will not be taken for serious.

Last time that “greed was good”, the information was leaked. In 2015 it was posted.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#3097 - 2015-10-18 14:03:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Portmanteau
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
It is totally relevant, if this goes live it will affect the NPE to deny that is ridiculous. How it will be perceived is open to debate, but I think a fair case can be made that many will see buying skillpoints as necessary.
Necessary for what?

Flying after 1 day ships that everybody else in 12 years of EVE flew after 6 months?

How can that be necessary, as opposed to optional, if countless players in EVE history survived perfectly and had fun without this new SP-trading thing?


Perception vs reality, surely you can't deny that despite it not being true, many new player and plenty of older player in this very thread perceive a need for skillpoints. The fact it's not necessarily true doesn't matter, the fact it is a common perception is important and relevant to how this change will be received. Not everyone comes into this game fully versed on the nuances of EvE life. Some never learn it.
Dave Stark
#3098 - 2015-10-18 14:03:50 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
It is totally relevant, if this goes live it will affect the NPE to deny that is ridiculous. How it will be perceived is open to debate, but I think a fair case can be made that many will see buying skillpoints as necessary.


the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.


The quantity is what's new, as you like saying so often, it's in the dev blog, the granular nature of these skill packets will make it more normal for new guys to buy them where it would be less usual to buy an entire character. This comes with a downside as new guys who can't afford a sub and skill packets will see their immediate peers (as someone else already pointed out) advancing more quickly than them. Your argument is obtuse and fails to recognise the importance of how new players perceive things.


he's going to see some one buy SP packets, or a new character. if some one is going to pay to advance, they're going to pay to advance. pretending that'll only be the case because we're now selling SP a different way is laughable.

if he can't afford to pay to advance and his peers can, he will be left behind regardless of whether or not this system is added to the game.

i don't fail to recognise the importance, you fail to recognise it already exists and isn't new.
Dave Stark
#3099 - 2015-10-18 14:04:39 UTC
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Jared Khanar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.


How can we already BUY and SELL SP (not characters - sp!) Even after all these years i´m here i haven´t heard of it - please teach me


do i really have to wheel out the still unanswered "which system am i describing" question?

really?


Yes, you do. Otherwise you will not be taken for serious.


ok then.

i start with a character with a set of skills i don't like. i end up with a character with a set of skills i do like.

which system am i describing, the old one or the new one?
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3100 - 2015-10-18 14:04:44 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:

CSM folks who oppose the change, or anyone else who's against it.

Can you point me to a cogent argument not using subjective buzzwords like "pay to win" why this change is bad?



OK, I am still catching up, but you asked nicely.

There have been a few constants in Eve. Real-time for skill training and industry was one of them. Oh you can buy the item/ship and jump ahead but someone played that real time price. Same goes for the Character Bazaar. You may not have paid the time but someone did, with plex or cold hard cash.

So CCP is looking at replacing it and who loses? On the surface? Nobody. We strip older characters or farmed alts and use them to fuel the newer ones. No loss, just out with the old, supercharge the new. But that is the thing.

'Stripping the old' but do you honestly think most of the skill points will go to NEW players? That it will increase retention or just make more alts of the vets? Is an increase in subs really a good thing if a lot of them are brood mares existing only to have their brains harvested on a regular basis . . . full of +5's and never ever undocking into space? Will that give us more content? Or will it just be numbers on some ledger?

Will new players coming in look and see the rich instaboosting themselves into better ships and leaving the normal subscription player behind in the dust? Would you play a game like that where it was obviously a game of haves and have-nots and you were probably one of the have-nots? Or would you pour your own money in and hope it was enough to keep up?

I sit in Rookie Help Chat and listen to new players trying to figure out how to play for free. How to earn that 1.2 bill within 30 days. Those types, will they stay if I tell them that not only is it unlikely but that they will have to pay extra to be decent at the game. If they listen and do pay to be able to fly . . . say an incursion or a null rat ship . . . in the first week then they will be well on the road to playing for free, right? Since increased demand for those elusive PLEX will have no effect on the market.

A lot of people are saying that this is fine since it will not effect them or maybe they can use it to rearrange their own skills, clean up that shameful mining V. I just hope they are very space rich or already used to paying subscriptions. I am in the latter category.

I'll still be here but IF this goes through I will be a bit more bitter and somewhat disappointed with what the game has become.

Pay to win? no, but what about Pay to keep up

m





+1.

I hope/expect that CCP has already studied that, since it is a dangerous change to how subscription money works for the subscribers. Being given a equal chance to pay extra money and enjoy a better game experience is a mean of double-charging the customers, and that's quite a terrible thing for subscription services.

RL wealthy and alliance backed noobs will take advantage of the system. The rest will see how, on top of all hardhisps involved in the NPE, they are being left behind since CCP considers that their subscription money is not enough...

And then, how it is players' fault if their susbscription money isn't enough for CCP? CCP should adapt to their income, rather than blackmail the players about being left behind in a competitive game.

Mike said that vets will take advantage of system by making perfect toons and striping unnecessary skills. You saying that noobs will benefit by accelerating with help from alliances or just soloing (I will). CCP will make more money... So why are you still against while all groups in win-win position?

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts