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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Jared Khanar
#3021 - 2015-10-18 12:37:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Dave Stark wrote:


this is literally no different to the situation we have now.

sell the pilot that can't fly the new doctrine, buy one that can.

****, for a decent price you can get one that can fly pretty much all the doctrines to begin with. for less than 100m SP there's very few subcap doctrines you can't fly well.

not to mention you're casually ignoring the logistics of moving/producing thousands of new doctrine ships - which pretty much always has been and always will be a bigger issue than getting people able to fly them.


hs, low, null, wh - is it all the same? is everyone in need to import their stuff, flying through the half universe tio get it to their members? Are there enough characters on the bazaar to buy one for every member in your alliance? is this really the same we have today? Changes are not announced early enough so we can prepare production? Really?

And if it really is all the same - why introduce something that has no impact in the first place?

Economic Services

trading spacepixels
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3022 - 2015-10-18 12:37:26 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
The end of eve. I can see this happening all within the span of a year.
I'm betting on you being clueless instead.

We'll see who was right next October 2016!

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#3023 - 2015-10-18 12:40:05 UTC
Big Lynx wrote:
Is this "Dave Stark vs the world" here?


So obvious that he's a Dev alt. Why else would a regular pilot defend this atrocious feature throughout the entire 150+ pages of this thread.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#3024 - 2015-10-18 12:41:33 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
The end of eve. I can see this happening all within the span of a year.
I'm betting on you being clueless instead.

We'll see who was right next October 2016!


If this goes through, I won't be around to find out, nor would I care.
Dave Stark
#3025 - 2015-10-18 12:42:00 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


this is literally no different to the situation we have now.

sell the pilot that can't fly the new doctrine, buy one that can.

****, for a decent price you can get one that can fly pretty much all the doctrines to begin with. for less than 100m SP there's very few subcap doctrines you can't fly well.

not to mention you're casually ignoring the logistics of moving/producing thousands of new doctrine ships - which pretty much always has been and always will be a bigger issue than getting people able to fly them.


hs, low, null, wh - is it all the same? is everyone in need to import their stuff, flying through the half universe tio get it to their members? Are there enough characters on the bazaar to buy one for every member in your alliance? is this really the same we have today? Changes are not announced early enough so we can prepare production? Really?


the game has been out 3-4 times longer than i've been playing. i can fly literally every subcap with t2 weapons, perfect supports etc. had i not bothered training things like exhumers V i would be a perfect subcap pilot and then some.

characters like mine aren't rare on the bazaar. most people already have them, you don't need to get all of your alliance new characters, just the new characters themselves. looking at the PCU - how many new characters do you think that really is?

the demand is nowhere near as high as i think you think it is.
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3026 - 2015-10-18 12:42:28 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:
Is this "Dave Stark vs the world" here?


So obvious that he's a Dev alt. Why else would a regular pilot defend this atrocious feature throughout the entire 150+ pages of this thread.


It's Dave Stark padding the thread in (futile) hope that the message will be lost in noise.
Dave Stark
#3027 - 2015-10-18 12:43:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Daniela Doran wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:
Is this "Dave Stark vs the world" here?


So obvious that he's a Dev alt. Why else would a regular pilot defend this atrocious feature throughout the entire 150+ pages of this thread.


for like the 5th time, i'm not defending this idea. i'm just pointing out that nobody has managed to actually come out with an argument as to why this idea is bad.

Delegate wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:
Is this "Dave Stark vs the world" here?


So obvious that he's a Dev alt. Why else would a regular pilot defend this atrocious feature throughout the entire 150+ pages of this thread.


It's Dave Stark padding the thread in (futile) hope that the message will be lost in noise.


if i wanted it to be lost in noise i'd just let the people against it drown out any discussion of this new feature with all their whining of preexisting problems that have 0 to do with the suggested idea.

besides, i don't post on eve-o much, gotta get as many posts in as i can in the short time i'm here.
Jared Khanar
#3028 - 2015-10-18 12:45:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Dave Stark wrote:

the game has been out 3-4 times longer than i've been playing. i can fly literally every subcap with t2 weapons, perfect supports etc. had i not bothered training things like exhumers V i would be a perfect subcap pilot and then some.

characters like mine aren't rare on the bazaar. most people already have them, you don't need to get all of your alliance new characters, just the new characters themselves. looking at the PCU - how many new characters do you think that really is?

the demand is nowhere near as high as i think you think it is.


So what are the positive effects from a feature without demand, that affects noone, cause you can do everything it brings already now? What else than milking the players wallet further, or attract not-so-cleaver people with to much money?

Economic Services

trading spacepixels
Dave Stark
#3029 - 2015-10-18 12:46:17 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

the game has been out 3-4 times longer than i've been playing. i can fly literally every subcap with t2 weapons, perfect supports etc. had i not bothered training things like exhumers V i would be a perfect subcap pilot and then some.

characters like mine aren't rare on the bazaar. most people already have them, you don't need to get all of your alliance new characters, just the new characters themselves. looking at the PCU - how many new characters do you think that really is?

the demand is nowhere near as high as i think you think it is.


So what are the positive effects from a feature without demand, that affects noone, cause you can do everything it brings already now? What else than milking the players wallet further?


your hypothetical is nowhere near the sum total of demand.

look at the devblog, there are over 25000 transfers per year. the demand for buying and selling SP is very substantial.
Malice Redeemer
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#3030 - 2015-10-18 12:47:08 UTC
The metagaming that this is going to lead to is absurd. Do we really need to make spying less work then it is now?

If you don't think the sp will be hoarded and the market manipulated you are just being silly. The current system doesn't really allow for that, and I think that is a very good thing.

These changes just give even more power to the most powerful groups, and for no reason. There is really very little gain, especially for new players.
Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3031 - 2015-10-18 12:47:32 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
On the other hand, after the SP 'reservoir' is released, you'd still have a lot of active accounts that could extract some or all of their monthly SP... hard to say how strong this 'constant' SP flow will be.

Correct. However, the market will stabilise eventually at some price point. We have an upper limit of about 0.25 PLEX. But we have an absolute lower limit as well, which is the ISK equivalent of the AUR extractor cost. I don't think the price has been announced, but say it is 0.05 PLEX. Then you know that the price will stabilise between 0.05 PLEX and 0.25 PLEX.

I think SP trading will be big enough in volume to make this happen fairly quickly, and indeed to make it difficult even for ISK and/or SP rich individuals to shake it up significantly. The really interesting part would be the first few days, or maybe weeks. I think massive ISK fortunes can and will be made, or lost, by speculating on the future price point there.
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3032 - 2015-10-18 12:49:04 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Delegate wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:
Is this "Dave Stark vs the world" here?


So obvious that he's a Dev alt. Why else would a regular pilot defend this atrocious feature throughout the entire 150+ pages of this thread.


It's Dave Stark padding the thread in (futile) hope that the message will be lost in noise.


if i wanted it to be lost in noise i'd just let the people against it drown out any discussion of this new feature with all their whining of preexisting problems that have 0 to do with the suggested idea.

besides, i don't post on eve-o much, gotta get as many posts in as i can in the short time i'm here.



You might have some luck in padding this thread with noise, if there were wasn't that many voices opposing SP trading. At this point your efforts are pathetic.
Dave Stark
#3033 - 2015-10-18 12:49:53 UTC
Delegate wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Delegate wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:
Is this "Dave Stark vs the world" here?


So obvious that he's a Dev alt. Why else would a regular pilot defend this atrocious feature throughout the entire 150+ pages of this thread.


It's Dave Stark padding the thread in (futile) hope that the message will be lost in noise.


if i wanted it to be lost in noise i'd just let the people against it drown out any discussion of this new feature with all their whining of preexisting problems that have 0 to do with the suggested idea.

besides, i don't post on eve-o much, gotta get as many posts in as i can in the short time i'm here.



You might have some luck in padding this thread with noise, if there were wasn't that many voices opposing SP trading. At this point your efforts are pathetic.


as i pointed out earlier, it's as if all the stupid is contained on eve-o as everywhere else is nowhere near as negative about this change.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#3034 - 2015-10-18 12:51:28 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Jared Khanar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

the game has been out 3-4 times longer than i've been playing. i can fly literally every subcap with t2 weapons, perfect supports etc. had i not bothered training things like exhumers V i would be a perfect subcap pilot and then some.

characters like mine aren't rare on the bazaar. most people already have them, you don't need to get all of your alliance new characters, just the new characters themselves. looking at the PCU - how many new characters do you think that really is?

the demand is nowhere near as high as i think you think it is.


So what are the positive effects from a feature without demand, that affects noone, cause you can do everything it brings already now? What else than milking the players wallet further?


your hypothetical is nowhere near the sum total of demand.

look at the devblog, there are over 25000 transfers per year. the demand for buying and selling SP is very substantial.


You avoided his question, for obvious reasons of course.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3035 - 2015-10-18 12:51:29 UTC
Tristan Agion wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
On the other hand, after the SP 'reservoir' is released, you'd still have a lot of active accounts that could extract some or all of their monthly SP... hard to say how strong this 'constant' SP flow will be.

Correct. However, the market will stabilise eventually at some price point. We have an upper limit of about 0.25 PLEX. But we have an absolute lower limit as well, which is the ISK equivalent of the AUR extractor cost. I don't think the price has been announced, but say it is 0.05 PLEX. Then you know that the price will stabilise between 0.05 PLEX and 0.25 PLEX.

I think SP trading will be big enough in volume to make this happen fairly quickly, and indeed to make it difficult even for ISK and/or SP rich individuals to shake it up significantly. The really interesting part would be the first few days, or maybe weeks. I think massive ISK fortunes can and will be made, or lost, by speculating on the future price point there.
Aye.

I would also expect several ISK-trillionaires and also the major alliances to actively try to influence the price, either for ISK-gain or (in the alliances case) to cheaply offer SP-packs to their members.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Jared Khanar
#3036 - 2015-10-18 12:53:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
ship replacement programs get extended with sp accumulation programs :D
Then recruit a few hundred f1 drones and launch your project ...

Economic Services

trading spacepixels
Dave Stark
#3037 - 2015-10-18 12:54:35 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Jared Khanar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

the game has been out 3-4 times longer than i've been playing. i can fly literally every subcap with t2 weapons, perfect supports etc. had i not bothered training things like exhumers V i would be a perfect subcap pilot and then some.

characters like mine aren't rare on the bazaar. most people already have them, you don't need to get all of your alliance new characters, just the new characters themselves. looking at the PCU - how many new characters do you think that really is?

the demand is nowhere near as high as i think you think it is.


So what are the positive effects from a feature without demand, that affects noone, cause you can do everything it brings already now? What else than milking the players wallet further?


your hypothetical is nowhere near the sum total of demand.

look at the devblog, there are over 25000 transfers per year. the demand for buying and selling SP is very substantial.


You avoided his question, for obvious reasons of course.


where did i avoid it? he claimed there was no demand in this feature and as such what was the value. his question is irrelevant since there quite obviously is a demand for it.

i demonstrated there was value in it, because there is a demand for it. i quite literally answered his question.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#3038 - 2015-10-18 12:55:02 UTC
Delegate wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:

I sit in Rookie Help Chat and listen to new players trying to figure out how to play for free. How to earn that 1.2 bill within 30 days. Those types, will they stay if I tell them that not only is it unlikely but that they will have to pay extra to be decent at the game.



It would be an added option in the game not a requirement. They can still wait to train into ships and based on the costs in the Aurum store most will wait most of the time. A few may exercise this option, or buy a character. But this isn't changing much.


Actually it does change a lot in new player experience. After this, a player starting the game will be unable to compete not only with older players but also with those of his peers that bought SP. So he will receive a very clear message: first pay for the sub, then grid/pay for the ISK and finally pay for the progress (or be left behind). There is a major difference from character bazaar here. A player with say 2-4m SP isn't going to engage in activities targeted by a 30m SP char bough off the bazaar. But he will meet players of similar age that performs better than him, because, for example, they bought 1.2m SP in core skills. After this change retention in new subs will drop.


Every year the game has existed the new player has had to compete at a larger and larger skill point disadvantage. It is only right that ccp would give new players more options to deal with this disadvantage.

Eve has been around a long time. If you started when the game came out no one already had more skill points than you. When I started in 2009 there were more people who already had a leg up on me. Now there even more characters that have more skill points than a new player.

I do not understand you point about the bazarr. If new player A does not buy a character from the bazarr but player B does then player A will not be as competitive as player B.

Asking a new player to come up with the isk to buy an entirely new character is asking too much. But giving a new player the option to get some core skills is more reasonable. Assuming the price is reasonable.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Jared Khanar
#3039 - 2015-10-18 12:55:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Dave Stark wrote:

where did i avoid it? he claimed there was no demand in this feature and as such what was the value. his question is irrelevant since there quite obviously is a demand for it.

i demonstrated there was value in it, because there is a demand for it. i quite literally answered his question.


I didn´t claim this, i ask why do you?


Dave Stark wrote:

characters like mine aren't rare on the bazaar. most people already have them, you don't need to get all of your alliance new characters, just the new characters themselves. looking at the PCU - how many new characters do you think that really is?

the demand is nowhere near as high as i think you think it is.

Economic Services

trading spacepixels
Dave Stark
#3040 - 2015-10-18 12:58:09 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

where did i avoid it? he claimed there was no demand in this feature and as such what was the value. his question is irrelevant since there quite obviously is a demand for it.

i demonstrated there was value in it, because there is a demand for it. i quite literally answered his question.


I didn´t claim this, i ask why do you?


"So what are the positive effects from a feature without demand,"

it was the OPENING LINE of your post.