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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Dave stark
#2981 - 2015-10-18 11:00:33 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
erm, it's exactly how the markets work.

once again, if you start dropping your prices to the point where there are huge margins to be had below cost price traders will buy them in order to re-list them.
Your assumption on cost is debatable.

What's the cost of SP on an account you would sub anyway?

What's the cost of SP on a useless alt?

What's the cost of SP on a character somebody skilled when PLEX was worth 500M ISK?


There are several ways to answer this, 1 PLEX (going price) for 1.8M SP is not the only one.


no, it isn't debatable. the cost price to produce a packet is 300m + exctractor at current plex prices. that is what it will cost to produce a packet. there is only one way to produce SP.

doesn't matter where the SP comes from. the cost of obtaining that SP is the same - assuming they are training at the same rate.

erm, yes it is the only way to answer it. there's no other way to get SP than to train it, which means you get 1.8m per plex.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2982 - 2015-10-18 11:02:01 UTC
lord xavier wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
lord xavier wrote:
Rinse and repeat, all of which will be done through what, instantly making new pilots?


and that's any different to just buying 10 titan pilots from the bazaar now?

people have been selling pilots capable of flying titans/supercarriers for quite a while now.

Because there aren't 10,000 titan characters for sale. Doing so as of right now puts people at throats with others wanting it for an actual pilot for their titan. With this change it will only bring people to make fresh-unknown pilots that aren't watch listed as known titan pilots.
god forbid a little shake-up on titan intel!

I agree the wealthy could benefit more from this trick (provided it's worth it, I'm no supercap warfare expert), but that's always true for anything, isn't it?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2983 - 2015-10-18 11:13:52 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
no, it isn't debatable. the cost price to produce a packet is 300m + exctractor at current plex prices. that is what it will cost to produce a packet. there is only one way to produce SP.
Nope!

Since I'd sub my account anyway to play, the incremental cost for me to produce a packet with my own SP is just the extractor.

I didn't buy a PLEX, I didn't sub my account to gain SP.

Now, the opportunity cost of extracting my SP instead of training is... let's see...

Got it!

It's exactly the market price of skill packets!!!

If skill packets will go for 100m, anyone will be happy to sell them for 100m, since they can buy them at 100m if they need the SP.


Makes sense to you now? When we're talking about a commodity that EVERY PLAYED ACCOUNT can AUTOMATICALLY generate 1.8m a month of, the price and value is just an agreement within the parties.

The fact that you COULD, in theory, waste a PLEX a month on an account that you don't need just to generate SP that EVERYBODY in EVE already has as a by-product of them playing the game, is irrelevant.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Dave stark
#2984 - 2015-10-18 11:17:09 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
no, it isn't debatable. the cost price to produce a packet is 300m + exctractor at current plex prices. that is what it will cost to produce a packet. there is only one way to produce SP.
Nope!

Since I'd sub my account anyway to play, the incremental cost for me to produce a packet with my own SP is just the extractor.

I didn't buy a PLEX, I didn't sub my account to gain SP.

Now, the opportunity cost of extracting my SP instead of training is... let's see...

Got it!

It's exactly the market price of skill packets!!!

If skill packets will go for 100m, anyone will be happy to sell them for 100m, since they can buy them at 100m if they need the SP.


Makes sense to you now? When we're talking about a commodity that EVERY PLAYED ACCOUNT can AUTOMATICALLY generate 1.8m a month of, the price and value is just an agreement within the parties.

The fact that you COULD, in theory, waste a PLEX a month on an account that you don't need just to generate SP that EVERYBODY in EVE already has as a by-product of them playing the game, is irrelevant.


no.

that's the price it costs to produce those SP. whether you need them or not doesn't matter. the only way to accumulate SP is to have an active subscription, which isn't free.

i understand what you're saying. but just like "minerals i mine are free", "sp i don't need are free" is just as, if not more, stupid.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#2985 - 2015-10-18 11:20:00 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
a25639 wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster.

It will surely happen. However, players doing this won’t gain any reasonable advantages by doing it. After all there are only combat skills worth 290m sp available and that includes mostly useless level 5 skills.


They will not do it because of advantage but pure prestige.


Then who gives a ****.

Oh hi, thanks for coming up again after being owned in previous argument.

You still do not understand anything. Ah well, sorry, I will stop answering to trolls / not so bright ones. But yes, if you had read my posts where i have explained it in details you would know.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#2986 - 2015-10-18 11:22:51 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
So has this already been decided? Or is it still being debated?

If players are postive to the change, and it seems they are, it will be introduced. I don't think it will be large change for new players. Someone must be really interested to the game to spend large chunk of money to "catch up with vets". If for example, Dave Stark want to get rid off his mining V it won't affect my gameplay at all. CCP found new way to earn money. We see EvE as game, they as job. Skill trading will destroy avatar based training system? So what? Nothing is set in stone. People are willing to pay for the service so CCP open this gate for them. Will it change the game significantly? I don't think so. Will it change the way I perceive CCP and the game? Definitely. I won't be as much attached to it. This is first step to destroy fundaments of the game.

Ps. D3 is good, it's getting better with every patch.


Not really, there are 4 people spamming this thread in favor of this and trolling everyone else. Beside them there were 5-10 people max who came and supported it with one post.

There are hundreds who are against it.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#2987 - 2015-10-18 11:23:24 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Same goes for the Character Bazaar. You may not have paid the time but someone did, with plex or cold hard cash.

This is exactly why I don't have a problem with the proposal. Skill points are not being created in a new way - they must still be earned by someone. The principle is the same as the character bazaar. Perhaps it would be better if the bazaar did not exist. But it does, and in its presence this is a good addition.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2988 - 2015-10-18 11:23:53 UTC
Some people seem to think that one can use the proposed system to farm for ISK via selling skill packets. I don't think that will happen any time soon.

If we assume that one can generate at a maximum about 2M SP per month, then 1 character can generate 4 skill packets per month. This character needs to be subscribed, hence requires 1 PLEX per month.

In consequence, you can generate ISK profit here only if the price for a skill packet is a bit greater than a quarter of a PLEX.

So in the very long term, that's where the price of skill packets would head. And yes, obviously some people would farm this. Most people won't though, because competition would drive margins down to the point where only huge farms of perfectly augmented characters will turn a reliable profit.

However, for the foreseeable future, there is also a huge backlog of unwanted characters (or unwanted skill training in wanted characters) to work through. This will kill attempts to farm this for many years to come.

Imagine you are a SP farmer, and you just put a skill packet up for sale for the ISK equivalent of 0.251 PLEX, making you a tiny profit (under the assumption of 0.25 PLEX generation costs). I have this old character that I want to mine for some ISK by breaking it down into SP packets. What will I do? Well, of course I will sell my packets for less than you, the farmer. Let's say I sell my packets for the ISK equivalent of 0.25 PLEX. You cannot compete with this, it is at production cost. John over there also has an old character he's mining for SP, he sees my sell order and goes down to the ISK equivalent of 0.249 PLEX. Now your farm is dead, you would be operating at a loss if you competed with that.

A smarter man than I can use the idea of farming to work out with more precision what the "true" price point for a skill packet is, namely its generation cost. My 0.25 PLEX is just a rough estimate. This will be useful for speculating on skill packets, i.e., if prices are much lower than this you might want to buy... But until we have burned through the huge backlog of SP-mineable old characters, I doubt anybody will actually farm. Rather, the possibility to farm will cap the price point for SP packets mined from old characters, which will dominate the market.
Dave stark
#2989 - 2015-10-18 11:24:49 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
So has this already been decided? Or is it still being debated?

If players are postive to the change, and it seems they are, it will be introduced. I don't think it will be large change for new players. Someone must be really interested to the game to spend large chunk of money to "catch up with vets". If for example, Dave Stark want to get rid off his mining V it won't affect my gameplay at all. CCP found new way to earn money. We see EvE as game, they as job. Skill trading will destroy avatar based training system? So what? Nothing is set in stone. People are willing to pay for the service so CCP open this gate for them. Will it change the game significantly? I don't think so. Will it change the way I perceive CCP and the game? Definitely. I won't be as much attached to it. This is first step to destroy fundaments of the game.

Ps. D3 is good, it's getting better with every patch.


Not really, there are 4 people spamming this thread in favor of this and trolling everyone else. Beside them there were 5-10 people max who came and supported it with one post.

There are hundreds who are against it.


pointing out that people haven't read the devblog and that their arguments are baseless isn't trolling.

however i can understand how you feel that way when the same tired old incorrect arguments get shot down over and over by facts. it can feel like you're being trolled i imagine.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#2990 - 2015-10-18 11:30:44 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
no, it isn't debatable. the cost price to produce a packet is 300m + exctractor at current plex prices. that is what it will cost to produce a packet. there is only one way to produce SP.
Nope!

Since I'd sub my account anyway to play, the incremental cost for me to produce a packet with my own SP is just the extractor.

I didn't buy a PLEX, I didn't sub my account to gain SP.

Now, the opportunity cost of extracting my SP instead of training is... let's see...

Got it!

It's exactly the market price of skill packets!!!

If skill packets will go for 100m, anyone will be happy to sell them for 100m, since they can buy them at 100m if they need the SP.


Makes sense to you now? When we're talking about a commodity that EVERY PLAYED ACCOUNT can AUTOMATICALLY generate 1.8m a month of, the price and value is just an agreement within the parties.

The fact that you COULD, in theory, waste a PLEX a month on an account that you don't need just to generate SP that EVERYBODY in EVE already has as a by-product of them playing the game, is irrelevant.


no.

that's the price it costs to produce those SP. whether you need them or not doesn't matter. the only way to accumulate SP is to have an active subscription, which isn't free.

i understand what you're saying. but just like "minerals i mine are free", "sp i don't need are free" is just as, if not more, stupid.


Gully is correct. Once you reach a certain point in your skill training then you are no longer subbing your account for SP. In fact it is the opposite, you do not require them at all. Also you are missing the biggest reason people sub and use plex, it is not to train SP, it is to be able to play the game. So the pure ISK value of plex cannot be directly correlated to SP gained anyway seeing as that is only a small byproduct of activating the plex.

So I agree with Gully, there will be a massive oversupply of SP and the price will not reflect the price of plex as you are expecting.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2991 - 2015-10-18 11:36:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Gully Alex Foyle
Dave Stark wrote:
i understand what you're saying. but just like "minerals i mine are free", "sp i don't need are free" is just as, if not more, stupid.
Indeed the two concepts are similar, but with a big difference.

To mine minerals, you have to dedicate your account's time to mining.

To 'mine' SP, you don't even have to log in...


Look at it this way. Say you want to produce and sell wine. 1 bottle of wine a month costs you 1 PLEX.

So you'd want to sell your wine for something more than 1 PLEX/bottle.


No consider that you live in a (virtual) world where 200,000 other people (active subscriber assumption) get a bottle of wine every month. 'Free' or not, they get it just because they live in this world. They don't have to do ANYTHING special to get that bottle, it's automatic.

These 200,000 people + another, say 1,000,000 people (existing, non-biomassed EVE characters estimation) also have an average of, say, at least 10 bottles of wine locked away in their canteens. Some have up to 150!

Suddenly, the canteen locks magically disappear and all these dudes can choose to sell their wine, if they wish. In many cases, the proceeds from wine-selling could be invested in things they need more than wine.


Sure, people love their wine and they certainly wouldn't want to sell all of it.

But there's a gigantic amount of wine bottles in the (virtual) world... Plus 200,000 being made every single month...


Do people really need all those bottles? If they need some cash, and have all these bottles in their canteens, will they really think they can't sell them for less than a PLEX each, just because that's the cost for a dedicated wine producer, who is slowly adding his 1 bottle/month to the MILLIONS of bottles already existing?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
a25639
Doomheim
#2992 - 2015-10-18 11:36:29 UTC
I also think the price of skillpackages will be lower than the actual cost for training time + extractor. I don’t think sp farming will be necessary to satisfy demand (especially not in the near future). EVE would have to be in a very healthy state for sp farming to be actually necessary. Lots of new players or at least lots of players who want more alts are required to use up all the excess sp of existing players / characters.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#2993 - 2015-10-18 11:37:40 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
So has this already been decided? Or is it still being debated?

If players are postive to the change, and it seems they are, it will be introduced. I don't think it will be large change for new players. Someone must be really interested to the game to spend large chunk of money to "catch up with vets". If for example, Dave Stark want to get rid off his mining V it won't affect my gameplay at all. CCP found new way to earn money. We see EvE as game, they as job. Skill trading will destroy avatar based training system? So what? Nothing is set in stone. People are willing to pay for the service so CCP open this gate for them. Will it change the game significantly? I don't think so. Will it change the way I perceive CCP and the game? Definitely. I won't be as much attached to it. This is first step to destroy fundaments of the game.

Ps. D3 is good, it's getting better with every patch.


Not really, there are 4 people spamming this thread in favor of this and trolling everyone else. Beside them there were 5-10 people max who came and supported it with one post.

There are hundreds who are against it.


pointing out that people haven't read the devblog and that their arguments are baseless isn't trolling.

however i can understand how you feel that way when the same tired old incorrect arguments get shot down over and over by facts. it can feel like you're being trolled i imagine.


I was referring to people who do not read previous posts of people discussing here. Ie asking same questions over and over without reading the answers...

And again, whatever arguments are, please go ahead and challenge them, if they are sh*t they will be challenged easily and taken down. So far not a single one was shot down.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#2994 - 2015-10-18 11:38:29 UTC
Chrome Veinss wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
[

Don ZOLA wrote:
a25639 wrote:
[quote=Don ZOLA]I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster.

It will surely happen. However, players doing this won’t gain any reasonable advantages by doing it. After all there are only combat skills worth 290m sp available and that includes mostly useless level 5 skills.


They will not do it because of advantage but pure prestige.


So why should we give the faintest **** about this again?


I have already answered you this one. Consistency in game fundamentals.

+they will have advantage,but it is not the main issue.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#2995 - 2015-10-18 11:43:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Dave Stark wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Yea I know cause I think you're a Dev alt trying to protect your RL income.

There's definitely a motive somewhere.


considering i'm not even defending the idea.

i'm just not crying that the sky is falling. if i want to buy and sell SP i can do it without this idea, and i could probably turn a profit from it if i bothered.


I'll put it to you straight so that you'll (hopefully) understand. If Eve had this feature already incorporated when I first began playing Eve in 2012, I would've left Eve a looooong time ago with absolutely no intentions of coming back. I just lack the ability to stay interested in a game that offers high rewards with little to no effort in a short time frame.


it did.

it still does.


When are you gonna get this Dave.

Buying/Selling chars on Char Bazaar and what CCP is currently proposing are 2 very different things. The first had consequence, the latter doesn't and is farmable(which makes it far worst).
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2996 - 2015-10-18 11:52:10 UTC
One other point on the SP supply vs. demand speculation.

Three undoubtedly useful applications of extractors/packets would be:

. Respeccing your own characters

. Transferring SP among your own characters

. 'Trading' SP with your friends or alliance/corp mates, at a 'friendly' price (because, for example, having friends that can fly certain ships with you is worth more than some measily ISK)


All these applications do not require you to buy packets in Jita, further decreasing the potential buy-side market, or demand, for SP packets...

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Dave stark
#2997 - 2015-10-18 11:52:41 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
To mine minerals, you have to dedicate your account's time to mining


yeah, and time in eve has a monetary value attached to it as it's a subscription game. thus we know the monetary cost associated with producing minerals.
Dave stark
#2998 - 2015-10-18 11:53:34 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
Buying/Selling chars on Char Bazaar and what CCP is currently proposing are 2 very different things. The first had consequence, the latter doesn't and is farmable(which makes it far worst).


a question nobody, for some reason, has been able to answer.

i start with a character with a set of skills i don't want. i end up with a character with a set of skills i do want. what am i describing, the current system or the new system?
Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2999 - 2015-10-18 11:54:48 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
So I agree with Gully, there will be a massive oversupply of SP and the price will not reflect the price of plex as you are expecting.

If the price for a skill packet drops very significantly below about a quarter of a PLEX, I for one will start buying up skill packets with whatever ISK I can spare. There is of course a massive reservoir of SP that could potentially be released to market. But in practice, the SP flow will be limited by vets actually bothering to trim their characters or dissolve their alts. If the price drops too low, many of them won't do that any longer...

I expect that there will be an initial "gold rush" period with the price fluctuating wildly. But since the price is basically capped by the possibility to farm, the price can only bottom out briefly, it cannot really spike. I for one will be waiting for serious drops to invest, and I imagine others will, too. And within a few months we surely will reach some kind of fairly stable equilibrium at a reasonable fraction of the "best farming" price. I would expect something like 0.2ish PLEX.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#3000 - 2015-10-18 11:59:45 UTC
I like the idea.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura