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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2961 - 2015-10-18 10:22:18 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

Thus, I'm sure 500,000 SP will cost less than 1/4 PLEX + extractor. So, you won't be able to PLEX an account entirely by selling its SP accumulation.

1/4 PLEX + extractor + price of waiting traning time
Patience is also valuable thing. All this market of skill traning is exist because some people have no patience like me =) I rather do some stuff in-game to earn isks to buy SP injector than wating until skills are trained.
So actually it may cost more than 1/4 PLEX + extractor.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2962 - 2015-10-18 10:22:42 UTC
lord xavier wrote:
Vets have the isk to make instant-perfect capital alts
So why did you not already buy 10 perfect dread alts from the Character Bazaar already?

If you already did, why would you need more dread alts after this proposed change?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Jared Khanar
#2963 - 2015-10-18 10:24:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jared Khanar wrote:
I only hope your RL wallet supports this, but as your are able to pay for not having to play (or at least minimize the needed time to do so) you are ofcourse having more time for your rl work to get the needed money you have to give to ccp.
I'm having trouble interpreting this as anything but a claim that I buy PLEX from CCP to avoid having to play certain parts of the game. If you intended it otherwise please do explain.


It´s an generall outcome in my opinion - if the words are choosen in a irritating way - exchange "you" with "someone" as this not only applies to you - rather everyone. Also please excuse a non optimal usage of the english language as it´s not my native one.

Economic Services

trading spacepixels
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#2964 - 2015-10-18 10:27:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius Heth
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Because in the current system you buy a character with its history, allocated SP, an SP count in line with the character's age, name, corp history and everything that belongs to it. The new owner simply continues that character's journey. With this new system there is a straight "SP for isk" which is something vastly different, this is not a difficult concept to understand.

While one may or may not agree to character sales the simple fact that they're allowed does not somehow automatically mean that the new system should thus also be implemented.
That wasn't the question persay, but works in lack of an answer I suppose.

So if a character comes along with a name I like, lack of history from being purpose made to sell, or better with standings aligned to my liking or at least not in a way that discourages my use, why does any of that matter? Allocated SP in particular seems horridly irrelevant so long as it has the skills I want/need. There is no longer any penalty for "wasted" SP, so why does this have meaning?


Because in this game choices have consequences, that concept is the fabric of this game.

You can choose to buy a character but you'll have to deal with its name, its SP choices and its history. The new system completely removes any sort of consequences where you can simply cannibalise a character, ANY character, and syphon its SP into whatever you want without any drawbacks or having to deal with that character's choices and history. You're circumventing normal character progression.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2965 - 2015-10-18 10:29:44 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
here's the fact - isk farmers are doing it for profit. they simply cannot sell below cost price. people not doing it for profit won't undercut by 50% because... why the **** would you?
Because you didn't spend a PLEX just to farm, you would've spent it anyway to play.

Simple as that.

And the proportion is very meaningful. If you have 1,000 packets for sale in Jita, of which just 100 from farmers, this will happen:

. Farmers won't go lower than their costs

. All the others will have to decide how much 500,000 SP are worth to them, considering they didn't specifically dish out 1/4 PLEX to create them. Supply & demand will do the rest. High demand --> maybe even double the theoretical PLEX cost (1/2 PLEX). Low demand --> who knows? maybe less than half? What are you ever going to do with those mining skills on your PVP char anyway???

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Doramina
Elite Firebird Investments
#2966 - 2015-10-18 10:29:56 UTC
Eve's greatest strength is its greatest weakness. As an eve online player I like the idea I can level the character without playing the game because I have limited time. As time goes by content access of the character threshold increases. This character threshold makes it harder for the player to access content confined by time. It should also be noted that skill point injection doesn't not mean that you pilot well. That takes your own experience and personal abilities.
Dave Stark
#2967 - 2015-10-18 10:34:11 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
here's the fact - isk farmers are doing it for profit. they simply cannot sell below cost price. people not doing it for profit won't undercut by 50% because... why the **** would you?
Because you didn't spend a PLEX just to farm, you would've spent it anyway to play.

Simple as that.

And the proportion is very meaningful. If you have 1,000 packets for sale in Jita, of which just 100 from farmers, this will happen:

. Farmers won't go lower than their costs

. All the others will have to decide how much 500,000 SP are worth to them, considering they didn't specifically dish out 1/4 PLEX to create them. Supply & demand will do the rest. High demand --> maybe even double the theoretical PLEX cost (1/2 PLEX). Low demand --> who knows? maybe less than half? What are you ever going to do with those mining skills on your PVP char anyway???


so because you're playing anyway you're going to sell SP f or 150m rather than 299m because you're already playing? no, you wouldn't. you will secure that sale at 299m isk, the same as you would at 150m. you're not going to throw away 149m isk for no reason.

you'd have to be simple to do that. honestly.

yeah 100 farmers won't lower their price to below cost. and 900 packets are then sold below cost. you secure the sale if you're 0.01 isk under "cost price" so they'll be sold for 299m. not 150m.

besides, all the traders will see your 150m sp packets on the market, see a 100% margin, and just buy it to relist it.

other than the initial "gold rush" there's almost basically no way that these packets won't track plex price + extractor costs per unit.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2968 - 2015-10-18 10:37:17 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

Thus, I'm sure 500,000 SP will cost less than 1/4 PLEX + extractor. So, you won't be able to PLEX an account entirely by selling its SP accumulation.

1/4 PLEX + extractor + price of waiting traning time
Patience is also valuable thing. All this market of skill traning is exist because some people have no patience like me =) I rather do some stuff in-game to earn isks to buy SP injector than wating until skills are trained.
So actually it may cost more than 1/4 PLEX + extractor.
I agree buyers may be willing to pay more.

But the point is, will there be more buyers or more sellers? Because sellers may be willing to get much less...

I honestly don't know, but as I noted before EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER EVER CREATED and not biomassed has SP that can be cashed-in... Plus all active accounts accumulate SP every minute... Additionally, many 'vets' don't really need additional SP anymore.

Hell, I'm my main, I'm 2-years old and my day-to-day EVE gameplay wouldn't really change much in the next year if I stopped training today!


I'm just pointing out that the current market price of SP, tied to the current SP-trading system (Character Bazaar), will mean nothing with this new system.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#2969 - 2015-10-18 10:37:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Colt Blackhawk
I read again some posts and I have to say I am astonished.
So people just cry "NOOO" and you can see 60% of all whiners didn´t even read the full stuff of proposed changes.

This change won´t hardly affect the higher sp players. It simply won´t make sense to buy SP if you ave already 100mil sp.
This toon for example has almost 70mil sp. NO way buing a ton of sp for this toon.
Just do the maths and READ THE DAMN BLOG and now calculate how many sp you would literally trash to get from 70mil to 120mil.
In fact the sp destruction due to conversion losses would even first time in eve history decline the total sp groth/player in eve.

Benefits of the proposed changes are mostly for new players.
For example: Player A starts mining career, after some months he does accdentaly his first pvp. Now he has almost evrything in mining and no pvp skills. So player A is angry and maybe quits the game because he sees that mining is boring OR he quits the game for four months and lets his skill queue run until his toon is ready for pvp.
Why does nobody see this mess???

Ah yes because eve is a vet game and all those vets cry 24/7 about eve is dying and no new players but on the other side they want those new players only for easy targets and to show them how superior the vets are^^
Eve needs a BIG change to attract new players.
Forget all those old crying bittervets. The are also responsible for the declining eve player numbers but they refuse to accept it.
Maybe the community is the biggest foe of eve actually.

Another benefit is: You skilled on op ship X. CCP nerfs it and you see all your SP have been wasted for this ship. So the wasted SP you do not need any more belong to CCPs responsibility and not yours.
With the new changes you can reskill but for the tradeoff of loosing some skill points.

Next thingie: All the bittervets cryinhg about "this is pay to win" refusing to realise they are playing pay2win already for years amuse me.
Eve is already pay2win. You want to be a pvp solo god? Just buy plex with money, sell it and buy all the toons you need for solo pvp on char basar. OGB toon: Check. Cloaky falcon toon: CHeck. Cloaky logi toon: Check.

But I bet the whining of all those whiners goes on and on.

These changes WILL make it a lot easier for new players and this is the right direction.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
lord xavier
Rubbed Out
#2970 - 2015-10-18 10:41:06 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
lord xavier wrote:
Vets have the isk to make instant-perfect capital alts
So why did you not already buy 10 perfect dread alts from the Character Bazaar already?

If you already did, why would you need more dread alts after this proposed change?

Titans are where my concerns are at. You can make 10 titan characters. Inject clones into the clone bay, jump until you get 5 days of fatigue. JC to the titan, hop in, go til 5 days, JC to the titan. Rinse and repeat, all of which will be done through what, instantly making new pilots?

Also, why on earth would you ever need 10 dread pilots and what do you even mean? I am sorry if you can't see the damage this change can actually do to the game. Instant-HIC alts. Instant recon alts. Instant-bait alts. Instant-titan alts. Instant dread alts. You can instantly make any kind of alt. As I said prior, this is an amazing feature for new players to be able to get to 60-80m SP really quicky. Being able to quickly switch doctrines as needed. This will be great for them, but also holds the ability to get abused to **** out of veterans.

(Really, what do you really need 10 dread alts for?)
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2971 - 2015-10-18 10:42:21 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
here's the fact - isk farmers are doing it for profit. they simply cannot sell below cost price. people not doing it for profit won't undercut by 50% because... why the **** would you?
Because you didn't spend a PLEX just to farm, you would've spent it anyway to play.

Simple as that.

And the proportion is very meaningful. If you have 1,000 packets for sale in Jita, of which just 100 from farmers, this will happen:

. Farmers won't go lower than their costs

. All the others will have to decide how much 500,000 SP are worth to them, considering they didn't specifically dish out 1/4 PLEX to create them. Supply & demand will do the rest. High demand --> maybe even double the theoretical PLEX cost (1/2 PLEX). Low demand --> who knows? maybe less than half? What are you ever going to do with those mining skills on your PVP char anyway???


so because you're playing anyway you're going to sell SP f or 150m rather than 299m because you're already playing? no, you wouldn't. you will secure that sale at 299m isk, the same as you would at 150m. you're not going to throw away 149m isk for no reason.

you'd have to be simple to do that. honestly.

yeah 100 farmers won't lower their price to below cost. and 900 packets are then sold below cost. you secure the sale if you're 0.01 isk under "cost price" so they'll be sold for 299m. not 150m.

besides, all the traders will see your 150m sp packets on the market, see a 100% margin, and just buy it to relist it.

other than the initial "gold rush" there's almost basically no way that these packets won't track plex price + extractor costs per unit.
Dave, I don't think I'm capable of accurately predicting the price but you shouldn't think so either!

Come on, what you say is not how markets work! If I go for 299m someone can go for 298m then someone can go for 250m. Supply & demand, as always.

Demand is anyone's guess, so is supply but the fact that every char ever created has SP and every active account accumulates SP makes me think that there's at least a possibility that supply could be pretty damn huge...

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Dave Stark
#2972 - 2015-10-18 10:42:43 UTC
lord xavier wrote:
Rinse and repeat, all of which will be done through what, instantly making new pilots?


and that's any different to just buying 10 titan pilots from the bazaar now?

people have been selling pilots capable of flying titans/supercarriers for quite a while now.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2973 - 2015-10-18 10:45:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Gully Alex Foyle
lord xavier wrote:
(Really, what do you really need 10 dread alts for?)
LOL nothing, this was my point!

Why do you think insta-dread alts (provided you pay several billion ISK, obviously) are a problem if people that field dreads already have all the dread characters they need?

EDIT: also, your jump fatigue defying idea is doable, but will likely be pretty damn expensive. Why would it be worth it?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Big Lynx
#2974 - 2015-10-18 10:46:04 UTC
Is this "Dave Stark vs the world" here?
Dave Stark
#2975 - 2015-10-18 10:47:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
here's the fact - isk farmers are doing it for profit. they simply cannot sell below cost price. people not doing it for profit won't undercut by 50% because... why the **** would you?
Because you didn't spend a PLEX just to farm, you would've spent it anyway to play.

Simple as that.

And the proportion is very meaningful. If you have 1,000 packets for sale in Jita, of which just 100 from farmers, this will happen:

. Farmers won't go lower than their costs

. All the others will have to decide how much 500,000 SP are worth to them, considering they didn't specifically dish out 1/4 PLEX to create them. Supply & demand will do the rest. High demand --> maybe even double the theoretical PLEX cost (1/2 PLEX). Low demand --> who knows? maybe less than half? What are you ever going to do with those mining skills on your PVP char anyway???


so because you're playing anyway you're going to sell SP f or 150m rather than 299m because you're already playing? no, you wouldn't. you will secure that sale at 299m isk, the same as you would at 150m. you're not going to throw away 149m isk for no reason.

you'd have to be simple to do that. honestly.

yeah 100 farmers won't lower their price to below cost. and 900 packets are then sold below cost. you secure the sale if you're 0.01 isk under "cost price" so they'll be sold for 299m. not 150m.

besides, all the traders will see your 150m sp packets on the market, see a 100% margin, and just buy it to relist it.

other than the initial "gold rush" there's almost basically no way that these packets won't track plex price + extractor costs per unit.
Dave, I don't think I'm capable of accurately predicting the price but you shouldn't think so either!

Come on, what you say is not how markets work! If I go for 299m someone can go for 298m then someone can go for 250m. Supply & demand, as always.

Demand is anyone's guess, so is supply but the fact that every char ever created has SP and every active account accumulates SP makes me think that there's at least a possibility that supply could be pretty damn huge...


erm, it's exactly how the markets work.

once again, if you start dropping your prices to the point where there are huge margins to be had below cost price traders will buy them in order to re-list them.

considering there are more transactions [on the bazaar] per year than the average pcu for the second half of this year so far... i sincerely doubt demand is going to be an issue.

as for supply it'll be as big as the market. there's 0 barrier to entry to this market. if there's any profit to be made any one can enter the market and thus saturate it to the point where cost price will be the max price.
Dave Stark
#2976 - 2015-10-18 10:48:16 UTC
Big Lynx wrote:
Is this "Dave Stark vs the world" here?



no, the world isn't this stupid. it's just eve-o. people discussing this in other places are significantly less oblivious to the obvious.
lord xavier
Rubbed Out
#2977 - 2015-10-18 10:51:27 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
lord xavier wrote:
Rinse and repeat, all of which will be done through what, instantly making new pilots?


and that's any different to just buying 10 titan pilots from the bazaar now?

people have been selling pilots capable of flying titans/supercarriers for quite a while now.

Because there aren't 10,000 titan characters for sale. Doing so as of right now puts people at throats with others wanting it for an actual pilot for their titan. With this change it will only bring people to make fresh-unknown pilots that aren't watch listed as known titan pilots.
Dave Stark
#2978 - 2015-10-18 10:53:42 UTC
lord xavier wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
lord xavier wrote:
Rinse and repeat, all of which will be done through what, instantly making new pilots?


and that's any different to just buying 10 titan pilots from the bazaar now?

people have been selling pilots capable of flying titans/supercarriers for quite a while now.

Because there aren't 10,000 titan characters for sale. Doing so as of right now puts people at throats with others wanting it for an actual pilot for their titan. With this change it will only bring people to make fresh-unknown pilots that aren't watch listed as known titan pilots.


do you need 10, or 10,000. which is it?
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2979 - 2015-10-18 10:55:02 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
erm, it's exactly how the markets work.

once again, if you start dropping your prices to the point where there are huge margins to be had below cost price traders will buy them in order to re-list them.
Your assumption on cost is debatable.

What's the cost of SP on an account you would sub anyway?

What's the cost of SP on a useless alt?

What's the cost of SP on a character somebody skilled when PLEX was worth 500M ISK?


There are several ways to answer this, 1 PLEX (going price) for 1.8M SP is not the only one.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2980 - 2015-10-18 11:00:07 UTC
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
T...hese changes WILL make it a lot easier for new players and this is the right direction.


My objections are on two levels:

1) they are changing the very core of the game and in doing so really pissing of a large chunk of the existing player base. This really doesn't seem like a very good idea to me.

2) This will not be for the benefit of new players unless you view them spending PLEX after PLEX on skill packs as a good thing for them. Older players and those that can afford to farm alts for SP will be those that benefit most from this. Also those entities who own the most lucrative space assets (such as moons...) will be able to farm alts to ensure they have perfect pilots in the most important areas making it even harder for smaller entities to encroach on their space.

This really is not a good idea in my opinion. If you want to assist new pilots give them all the cerebral accelerator to start with and allow players to build them in game too in any space.