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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2921 - 2015-10-18 08:48:33 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Quote:
I just find people claiming "i'm quitting because you can buy SP" to be hypocrites - which wind me up immensely. they have always been able to buy and sell SP, and they're still here. so claiming they will quit is entirely disingenuous or hypocritical.
Depends on how you view the character bazaar, some see it as purchasing time rather than SP. It's a fine distinction, but it does exist.
Question for the ill suited to figure it out on their own, but what is the distinction in this case? I think it hard to argue people buy characters for simple age over ability, so while SP takes time to accrue, it's not the time a buyer would be after, but rather the abilities that come from the SP.

If I'm missing something, do tell please.
Jared Khanar
#2922 - 2015-10-18 08:54:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Question for the ill suited to figure it out on their own, but what is the distinction in this case? I think it hard to argue people buy characters for simple age over ability, so while SP takes time to accrue, it's not the time a buyer would be after, but rather the abilities that come from the SP.

If I'm missing something, do tell please.


If it´s all about enabling abilities, this can be provided in many other way. You can alter SP requirements, and so on.
It´s not that hard to alter existing features without additional costs for the player.
But as this is designed it´s centered around additional cash income for ccp - advantages for money. If you support this, or not doesn´t matter. Please see this clearly as it is.

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#2923 - 2015-10-18 08:54:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Quote:
I just find people claiming "i'm quitting because you can buy SP" to be hypocrites - which wind me up immensely. they have always been able to buy and sell SP, and they're still here. so claiming they will quit is entirely disingenuous or hypocritical.
Depends on how you view the character bazaar, some see it as purchasing time rather than SP. It's a fine distinction, but it does exist.
Question for the ill suited to figure it out on their own, but what is the distinction in this case? I think it hard to argue people buy characters for simple age over ability, so while SP takes time to accrue, it's not the time a buyer would be after, but rather the abilities that come from the SP.

If I'm missing something, do tell please.
It is a fine distinction, you're correct in that SP takes time to accrue, and time has value.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2924 - 2015-10-18 08:57:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Question for the ill suited to figure it out on their own, but what is the distinction in this case? I think it hard to argue people buy characters for simple age over ability, so while SP takes time to accrue, it's not the time a buyer would be after, but rather the abilities that come from the SP.

If I'm missing something, do tell please.

If you buy a character, time has passed at the normal rate for the skills that the character has.
If you buy SP packets, there is no requirement for any of the sources to have accumulated the same total time.
So rather than waiting 6 months for 1 characters 6 months worth of skills, you can now do it in a month from 6 characters at once.

This makes a huge difference in terms of how 'instant gratification' this sort of thing is.
Additionally it's not for the benefit of the newbies, it's old experienced players who will take advantage of this and twist and abuse it in classic EVE ways.
Newbies both won't have the money for this anyway, and won't know where to put their SP anyway.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#2925 - 2015-10-18 08:58:23 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Quote:
I just find people claiming "i'm quitting because you can buy SP" to be hypocrites - which wind me up immensely. they have always been able to buy and sell SP, and they're still here. so claiming they will quit is entirely disingenuous or hypocritical.
Depends on how you view the character bazaar, some see it as purchasing time rather than SP. It's a fine distinction, but it does exist.
Question for the ill suited to figure it out on their own, but what is the distinction in this case? I think it hard to argue people buy characters for simple age over ability, so while SP takes time to accrue, it's not the time a buyer would be after, but rather the abilities that come from the SP.

If I'm missing something, do tell please.


Because in the current system you buy a character with its history, allocated SP, an SP count in line with the character's age, name, corp history and everything that belongs to it. The new owner simply continues that character's journey. With this new system there is a straight "SP for isk" which is something vastly different, this is not a difficult concept to understand.

While one may or may not agree to character sales the simple fact that they're allowed does not somehow automatically mean that the new system should thus also be implemented.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#2926 - 2015-10-18 08:59:08 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
isk is being exchanged for sp regardless of whether i'm doing it via the bazaar or by the new system.

whether i log in to update a skill queue or extract SP makes no odds. one isn't more effort than the other.

It is a lot easier to just farm this packs than to create a new ALT and sell it on the bazaar. The big difference here obviously is EFFORT you have to put in to get rid of your SP or ALT.

And EFFORT makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD!

Myself and I believe many other will never ever invest the time to create an alt to sell on the bazaar. It's not fun for me and I rather pay the subscriptions than to be bothered with this. With the extractors this will change. I can just farm SP as long as I don't need ISK for a new PLEX or something else WITHOUT EFFORT. I can cash out every time I want with almost ZERO EFFORT.

If this hits TQ myself and many others will no longer pay for a subscription and instead just use PLEX with the ISK you farm via this effortless mechanic. PLEX prices will rise to new heights. To the detriment of the player who actually farms ISK via some other mechanic to get the PLEX and actually needs the SP to train new skills.

So EVE will no longer be F2P for the player who is still training and farming the ISK via missions or mining, but instead for the vet who is already satisfied with his chars and has to do nothing.

This is about changing the current system in a bad way and to make sure even Dave gets it I will repeat the core aspect of the argument I made a lot of pages back:

EFFORT makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD! No one cares if it is almost the same as the bazaar, there is enough difference to completely change the way this aspect of the game works.

Evil RatKid
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#2927 - 2015-10-18 09:00:04 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Yea I know cause I think you're a Dev alt trying to protect your RL income.

There's definitely a motive somewhere.


considering i'm not even defending the idea.

i'm just not crying that the sky is falling. if i want to buy and sell SP i can do it without this idea, and i could probably turn a profit from it if i bothered.


I'll put it to you straight so that you'll (hopefully) understand. If Eve had this feature already incorporated when I first began playing Eve in 2012, I would've left Eve a looooong time ago with absolutely no intentions of coming back. I just lack the ability to stay interested in a game that offers high rewards with little to no effort in a short time frame.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2928 - 2015-10-18 09:02:09 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
If it´s all about enabling abilities, this can be provided in many other way. You can alter SP requirements, and so on.
It´s not that hard to alter existing features without additional costs for the player.
But as this is designed it´s centered around additional cash income for ccp.
That it could bring in income for CCP is in my mind a non-argument as I see no reason that they shouldn't be able to monetize this ability, and well should do so to prevent overly frivolous use should it come into being.

Regarding changing skill prereqs, unless you eliminate all prerequisites there will be a desire for skilled characters and the issue remains, albeit possibly less imposing.

Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
It is a fine distinction,indeed the SP does take time to accrue, and time has value.
What value does time have in this instance? If that value is only that it takes time to accrue SP that makes buying SP and buying time indistinguishable.
Dave stark
#2929 - 2015-10-18 09:03:05 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Yea I know cause I think you're a Dev alt trying to protect your RL income.

There's definitely a motive somewhere.


considering i'm not even defending the idea.

i'm just not crying that the sky is falling. if i want to buy and sell SP i can do it without this idea, and i could probably turn a profit from it if i bothered.


I'll put it to you straight so that you'll (hopefully) understand. If Eve had this feature already incorporated when I first began playing Eve in 2012, I would've left Eve a looooong time ago with absolutely no intentions of coming back. I just lack the ability to stay interested in a game that offers high rewards with little to no effort in a short time frame.


it did.

it still does.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#2930 - 2015-10-18 09:03:38 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
I'll be glad to propose one for them that won't destroy the game's core.


like This?


No, You've already clearly demonstrated that you lack this insight.
Jared Khanar
#2931 - 2015-10-18 09:06:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
That it could bring in income for CCP is in my mind a non-argument as I see no reason that they shouldn't be able to monetize this ability, and well should do so to prevent overly frivolous use should it come into being.


Well if you like the idea to pay for features that gives advantages in a subscription based game your good to go :)
On the other hand I thought in a subscription based game you are paying for acces to the game and usage of all it´s features without additional costs. Maybe we should discuss also what subscription means and what you are paying for in eve, if you do this.
Is subscription only allowing access and nothing else? Please share your oppinion :)

Economic Services

trading spacepixels
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2932 - 2015-10-18 09:07:19 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Because in the current system you buy a character with its history, allocated SP, an SP count in line with the character's age, name, corp history and everything that belongs to it. The new owner simply continues that character's journey. With this new system there is a straight "SP for isk" which is something vastly different, this is not a difficult concept to understand.

While one may or may not agree to character sales the simple fact that they're allowed does not somehow automatically mean that the new system should thus also be implemented.
That wasn't the question persay, but works in lack of an answer I suppose.

So if a character comes along with a name I like, lack of history from being purpose made to sell, or better with standings aligned to my liking or at least not in a way that discourages my use, why does any of that matter? Allocated SP in particular seems horridly irrelevant so long as it has the skills I want/need. There is no longer any penalty for "wasted" SP, so why does this have meaning?
Dave stark
#2933 - 2015-10-18 09:08:34 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
I'll be glad to propose one for them that won't destroy the game's core.


like This?


No, You've already clearly demonstrated that you lack this insight.


and which of the myriad of issues presented doesn't it fix?

it literally fixes every issue people are whining about.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2934 - 2015-10-18 09:08:55 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
That it could bring in income for CCP is in my mind a non-argument as I see no reason that they shouldn't be able to monetize this ability, and well should do so to prevent overly frivolous use should it come into being.


Well if you like the idea to pay for features that gives advantages in a subscription based game your good to go :)
I play a game with PLEX, allowing people to have in game funds so long as they spend out of game funds.

If I had an issue with this while continuing to play I'd be less than reasonable I'd think.
Jared Khanar
#2935 - 2015-10-18 09:14:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I play a game with PLEX, allowing people to have in game funds so long as they spend out of game funds.

If I had an issue with this while continuing to play I'd be less than reasonable I'd think.


Sadly the idea to pay to have access to the game, pay additionaly to get funds, pay additionaly to progress, pay additionally to do xyz is not everyones number one choice. If the community changes in a way that support this, ccp will surely focus on this even further. If you see no problem in this, thats fine. Have a great time in a game like this ;) I only hope your RL wallet supports this, but as your are able to pay for not having to play (or at least minimize the needed time to do so) you are ofcourse having more time for your rl work to get the needed money you have to give to ccp.

At least all my own accounts are unsubbing in a few days. Personally i will only return to eve if ccp changes it´s course drastically and PROVES this change for a while. They can´t be trusted anymore as their history of lies and broken promises shows.

But thats also not a bad thing, as players like me leaving, are accelerating the shift in the community towards a accepting and obeying crowd. Fewer and fewer players will have to pay ccp, and as a corporation they are heading towards expansion, increase of revenue, and else. Think about a smaller playerbase having to fullfill this greed for more. Think of the further changes this implies - changes that probably also want additional money. a.s.o.

Economic Services

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#2936 - 2015-10-18 09:18:04 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
It is a fine distinction,indeed the SP does take time to accrue, and time has value.
What value does time have in this instance? If that value is only that it takes time to accrue SP that makes buying SP and buying time indistinguishable.
The value of time is subjective, not everybody values it in the same way, or at the same rate; which is why it's such a fine distinction.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2937 - 2015-10-18 09:25:02 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I play a game with PLEX, allowing people to have in game funds so long as they spend out of game funds.

If I had an issue with this while continuing to play I'd be less than reasonable I'd think.


Sadly the idea to pay to have access to the game, pay additionaly to get funds, pay additionaly to progress, pay additionally to do xyz is not everyones number one choice. If the community changes in a way that support this, ccp will surely focus on this even further. If you see no problem in this, thats fine. Have a great time in a game like this ;)
I'm already having a great time in a game like this, as that's what this game currently is. We can pretend otherwise, or that by being "born of necessity" to curb a black market that the existing functions don't count as short-cutting progress or RMT, but that's exactly what they are.

The only problem I have is that we keep one a secret to the cool kids club with multi-billion budgets to throw at characters and pretend it's great for the game to make sure only those in the know and are willing to make a substantial investment can benefit.

CCP has proven to be pretty reasonable in moderating both of those rackets leaving no particular reason to believe this one would have the same result. But beyond the typical slippery slope what objections do you have?
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#2938 - 2015-10-18 09:27:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Hopefully what you said is true and CCP decides to abort this atrocious idea in a respectful time frame.
No, no, no, no.. no. You misunderstand me, I said that CCP need to get it right.



In case you haven't notice CCP seems to be having trouble with "getting it right" these days. And the margin for error with this is microscopic. Are you that confident they can get this right considering their recent track record?

I'm Not!

If they need help, I'll happily oblige.
Jared Khanar
#2939 - 2015-10-18 09:28:01 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
But beyond the typical slippery slope what objections do you have?


If have edited my last posting, you may also like to read my history in this thread. Allow me to not repost all this.

Economic Services

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2940 - 2015-10-18 09:28:47 UTC
Read the last 150 pages and you'll see a bunch of other ways to abuse this feature.
And it's not a 'typical slippery slope' argument either. Because this is a massive shift in philosophy by CCP here towards paying to win. It's not quite paying to win, but it certainly is paying to bypass game features in a massively larger way.