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most people haven't said anything new since the character bazaar was introduced.

And most people will have most likely missed this because you added an extra 50 pages for them to read.

It's a polarising topic which leads to extremes of opinion, but it's unlike you to be this rabid and obtuse Dave.

I started playing Eve and it was a fact of life, it was something I had no say in. I do have a say in the discussion about the changes that are being proposed; I will participate in that discussion and I reserve the right to change my opinion as more becomes known.

I've posted my initial reaction, not a carefully considered opinion; my opinion is open to revision as time goes by. I want to see more detail and how this plays out instead of making an uniformed choice to stop playing a game I've enjoyed for a long time.

you did have a say in it - if the idea of purchasing SP abhorred you that much your say would have been to never have given CCP any of your money or time to begin with.

I just find people claiming "i'm quitting because you can buy SP" to be hypocrites - which wind me up immensely. they have always been able to buy and sell SP, and they're still here. so claiming they will quit because of it is entirely disingenuous or hypocritical.

i mean i get it - people might not like the idea. that's totally fine. however pretending because it's "because you can buy and sell SP and it's gonna kill eve"? pull the other one.

Well, apparently this pay-to-win idea is becoming a turd that's gonna be shoved down our throat we want it or don't. So let's negotiate how large, soft and smelly should be the turd.

I *see* how helping new players to buy themselves into higher SP early in the game could be good for the players, theoretically, even for those who don't belong to an alliance which can fund them for free.

What I don't see is any need that certain players backed up by large RL pockets or large ingame alliances can "pay to win" indefinitely over players who go the "slow way" and merely pay their monthly sub.

So here's the thing: to hell with diminishing returns and put a hard cap by age on the use of skill packages. Say, 10 million SP, roughly the first 6 months of skilling, so players who just pay a subscription to CCP never are left behind by more than 6 months compared to those who paid to win.


And yet I think that it's utterly stupid to tell your subscribers that their money is not good enough and they should be paying you more to not be left behind...

I believe opinions of players represented by themselves in this thread more than enough. I asked this question because if someone have no personal reason hence he hide it to be less vulnerable to arguments and to be able speaking about more abstact things which makes illusion that he giving relevant arguments.

I don't eat turd, I flush it down the toilet.

Can't give you an answer on this, that train of thought is alien to me.

When I fly, I don't ever think about how much SP or ISK my opponents have ot how they've acquired it. How they've acquired it is particularly meaningless to me.

No, no, no, no.. no. You misunderstand me, I said that CCP need to get it right.

Thank you for the compliment despite the misunderstanding.

As someone who has started a new main character (slowly crawling towards 5M SP), all I can say is that introducing SP for isk breaks an interesting part of the game for me. It may sound silly, but making intelligent skill training choices without the possibility of a skill remap is fun. Other games I enjoyed in the past were equally ruthless with regards to character choices.

I feel SP for isk is simply an easy way out of the broken new player experience. A lot could be done to make low SP gameplay more balanced. Some good steps towards this have been taken already (requiring lvl 3/4 instead of lvl 5 to 'progress'), but the job is not done. By wisely specializing new players should be able to become competitive much faster. "Theorycrafting" a new character progression can be a lot of fun.

"Kil2" was bought because of the desire to fly battleships. Well, what if new players could fly reasonably fitted battleships in a reasonable amount of time by making intelligent choices? Sure, they'd be lacking the last 15% in dps and tank, but so what?

The main problem with progression for new characters is that the races do not allow proper specialization. Take the breacher, bellicose, cyclone lineup for instance. Training up drone skills has a far bigger impact on your DPS than improving all those missile skills. In fact, adding drone control units to the bellicose adds about the same dps as adding BCUs. Does that sound balanced? While older characters may look at drone SP and notice how "few" SP they require, those initial couple millions you need to invest really hold back low SP characters for no decent reason.

Some other ways in which to help new characters out without selling SP for isk:

- module rebalancing in terms of stats (e.g. make faction guns reasonably affordable, so new players can be competitive without t2) => this is still "pay to win", but in a much more interesting manner)
- module/ship rebalancing in terms of requirements (e.g. require lvl 3/4 skills mostly instead of lvl 5, e.g. t2 large AC currently require motion prediction lvl 5, why?)
- make t1 ships more competitive with t1 fits (a positive example of this are the minmatar destroyers: the t1 fits are not that much worse than the t2 fits)
- ...

There is so much that could be done, but all of it requires devs with the time and patience to carefully tweak all those stats. It may not be "flashy", but it could turn EVE into a whole new game with far more interesting choices to make.