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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Author
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2641 - 2015-10-17 19:46:25 UTC
Delegate wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

New player:
1 account, 2 slots
paltry ISK.

His options, go shell out at least another $19.95 for a PLEX and maybe get up to 2.4 million SP. Yet another $19.95 and now he is at 4.4 million SP. And not knowing the game as well as the older player he probably did not allocate those skills that well. Maybe in spaceship command he has just enough to get into a BS. And for gunnery he skipped all the support skills. Then he runs into an older player in a svipul and is eaten alive. He logs off pissed as **** because his big ship just died to a little ship! WTF. And WTF, he spent nearly $55 ******* dollars. **** Eve, **** CCP, and what the **** is on television.

Anyone who thinks that newer players will be using this as much or more than an older player...I think they are sadly mistaken.

A new player might buy 1 may 2 SP packets after selling a PLEX in game, but my guess that is about it.


And that new player will be seeing his peers buy SP. He will see them more efficient at missions. More efficient at exploration. More efficient at mining. Whatever path he chooses there will very likely be players around of similar age but more efficient... because they paid. So maybe he will buy few packs, just to not feel left behind by what supposed to be his peers. But ultimately he will realize that unless he comes to terms with normal skilling his choices are: sell an arm or quit.
New player experience will go south. But perhaps CCP assume that at this point growth in new subscriptions is not on the table.


Yes, that is what I said. He might buy 1 or 2 packets. Maybe a third down the road a bit to get him to 5 million SP a bit sooner. After that, the decreasing returns will really make him (the average new player) thing twice.

And keep in mind I'm talking about the average new player. Not the guy who is fortunate to have a **** ton of RL cash and can go out and buy 100 SP packets via PLEX. So this is what the average, IMO, will do. And here is something about averages...they split the distribution in...wait....wait...half! So half the players would be buying less SP than our average dude here. Depending on the skewness of the distribution alot of players might not buy any all.

Yes, I have no data for this...but then again neither does anyone else who is saying, "Don't worrry, everything will be awesome." And I'm not saying it will be horrible, just that there is a chance it could be.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2642 - 2015-10-17 19:47:36 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
And if it hurts retention?


if skipping arbitrary wait times for new players to actually do things in eve hurts retention - then nothing will improve it.

as for single data points, ******* lol - watch the show; they quite clearly state that most of the high level players in null have at some point purchased a character at some point.

buying and selling SP isn't new and already exists.


Yeah, new players are going to use this extensively and milk and honey for all. Sorry, not buying it. I do not believe that all the new players are going to be buying PLEX to speed up their training times. Some will, but my guess it is a small fraction.

As for your "additional" data, were they all a week old at the time? If you don't know, then more bullcrap straws. Go find out.


does it matter how old they all were?
we already know new players do it. and we know they're encouraged to do it.


No we know some do it. And we don't know when they did it or why, except for on case.

Basically, you got nothing here but assumptions piled on top of some limited data.

Impressive as a turd.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Dave stark
#2643 - 2015-10-17 19:49:44 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
And if it hurts retention?


if skipping arbitrary wait times for new players to actually do things in eve hurts retention - then nothing will improve it.

as for single data points, ******* lol - watch the show; they quite clearly state that most of the high level players in null have at some point purchased a character at some point.

buying and selling SP isn't new and already exists.


Yeah, new players are going to use this extensively and milk and honey for all. Sorry, not buying it. I do not believe that all the new players are going to be buying PLEX to speed up their training times. Some will, but my guess it is a small fraction.

As for your "additional" data, were they all a week old at the time? If you don't know, then more bullcrap straws. Go find out.


does it matter how old they all were?
we already know new players do it. and we know they're encouraged to do it.


No we know some do it. And we don't know when they did it or why, except for on case.

Basically, you got nothing here but assumptions piled on top of some limited data.

Impressive as a turd.


both of the cases i cited, clearly stated when they did it.

i have a fact; new players buy characters. new players buy sp.
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#2644 - 2015-10-17 19:50:10 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Delegate wrote:
And that new player will be seeing his peers buy SP. He will see them more efficient at missions. More efficient at exploration. More efficient at mining. Whatever path he chooses there will very likely be players around of similar age but more efficient... because they paid. So maybe he will buy few packs, simply to not feel left behind by what supposed to be his peers. But ultimately he will realize that unless he comes to terms with normal skilling his choices are: sell an arm or quit.
New player experience will go south. But perhaps CCP assumes that at this point growth in new subscriptions is not on the table.


unlike now where he sees them buy a character, and the same thing happens. what you're pointing out, yet again, isn't a new problem that will magically appear because of this new system. it already exists.


Equate bazaar to skill pill is plain wishful thinking.

No one will buy a char now, then buy another later, then another, maybe merge them all, and make a superhero.

The huge difference is that with skill pill it is not only buying it for XP that is exploitable. Self skill pill taking is a huge flaw.

You build a 10 pipeline skill queue by leveling alts with the sole intent to feed skills to one char. voilà, you not only "bought a super char", this superchar is like you want, with the skills you want, and didnt cost you half of what it would from the Bazaar.

SKill Pill is bazaar on steroids. Bazaar is a bad idea, needed for a reason, skill pill is just too much.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2645 - 2015-10-17 19:50:20 UTC
Dror wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
And if it hurts retention?


if skipping arbitrary wait times for new players to actually do things in eve hurts retention - then nothing will improve it.

as for single data points, ******* lol - watch the show; they quite clearly state that most of the high level players in null have at some point purchased a character at some point.

buying and selling SP isn't new and already exists.


Yeah, new players are going to use this extensively and milk and honey for all. Sorry, not buying it. I do not believe that all the new players are going to be buying PLEX to speed up their training times. Some will, but my guess it is a small fraction.

As for your "additional" data, were they all a week old at the time? If you don't know, then more bullcrap straws. Go find out.

There's no reason to make the game out as if it's so interesting at low SP. If there's a method of progression in-game, how is that not them benefiting? Whether they capitalize on their options or quit is up to the game to seem interesting at that level.


I didn't say it was not benefiting them though. I'm just saying I don't think that many will avail themselves to it and to the extent they do it will be somewhat limited.

But feel free to assume that all new players are going shell out $80+ on top of their subscription via this mechanism. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2646 - 2015-10-17 19:52:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Dave Stark wrote:


both of the cases i cited, clearly stated when they did it.

i have a fact; new players buy characters. new players buy sp.


OMG you got 2 data points!!!!

OMG OMG OMG OMG.

Roll

Comeback when you have a random sample of players...say 1,000. Until then stop talking out of your butt.

Oh, and yeah it mattes how old they were, you were defending the position that Laz Telraven bought a character 1 week in game, implying that this is somewhat common.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Dave stark
#2647 - 2015-10-17 19:52:44 UTC
Estevan Andrard wrote:
You build a 10 pipeline skill queue by leveling alts with the sole intent to feed skills to one char. voilà, you not only "bought a super char", this superchar is like you want, with the skills you want, and didnt cost you half of what it would from the Bazaar.


no, it'll cost you significantly more to create a high SP character with packets than to buy it from the bazaar.
Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
#2648 - 2015-10-17 19:53:00 UTC
http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1

Just a thing I wanted to leave here:

Dave Stark 187 (7,1%)
Querns 128 (4,8%)
Don ZOLA 98 (3,7%)
Teckos Pech 96 (3,6%)

Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda.
Dave stark
#2649 - 2015-10-17 19:54:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Teckos Pech wrote:
OMG you got 2 data points!!!!

OMG OMG OMG OMG.

Roll

Comeback when you have a random sample of players...say 1,000. Until then stop talking out of your butt.

Oh, and yeah it mattes how old they were, you were defending the position that Laz Telraven bought a character 1 week in game, implying that this is somewhat common.


gorski did the same - read his CZ article.

i don't need more than 2 data points. 2 people - players. it's very simple.

we objectively know new players do buy characters. we're not discussing how many do it - i'm telling you new players do it. as illustrated by the fact that two high profile characters have said so and we know new players are encouraged to do so.

i don't need a sample of 1000 to tell you it happens. i only need a sample size that big to give you an estimate of how many do.
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2650 - 2015-10-17 19:55:20 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Delegate wrote:
And that new player will be seeing his peers buy SP. He will see them more efficient at missions. More efficient at exploration. More efficient at mining. Whatever path he chooses there will very likely be players around of similar age but more efficient... because they paid. So maybe he will buy few packs, simply to not feel left behind by what supposed to be his peers. But ultimately he will realize that unless he comes to terms with normal skilling his choices are: sell an arm or quit.
New player experience will go south. But perhaps CCP assumes that at this point growth in new subscriptions is not on the table.


unlike now where he sees them buy a character, and the same thing happens. what you're pointing out, yet again, isn't a new problem that will magically appear because of this new system. it already exists.


No one buys a toon on the bazaar to run l2s along newcomers.
A market with an entry level of 1-2 PLEXes (SP transfer) will be much more pervasive than character bazaar.

You knew this very well when writing. And that why I'm not going to waste more time on this kind of "arguments".
Dave stark
#2651 - 2015-10-17 19:55:39 UTC
Talsha Talamar wrote:
http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1

Just a thing I wanted to leave here:

Dave Stark 187 (7,1%)
Querns 128 (4,8%)
Don ZOLA 98 (3,7%)
Teckos Pech 96 (3,6%)

Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda.


haven forbid the people having a discussion end up with the most posts.
Dave stark
#2652 - 2015-10-17 19:57:11 UTC
Delegate wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Delegate wrote:
And that new player will be seeing his peers buy SP. He will see them more efficient at missions. More efficient at exploration. More efficient at mining. Whatever path he chooses there will very likely be players around of similar age but more efficient... because they paid. So maybe he will buy few packs, simply to not feel left behind by what supposed to be his peers. But ultimately he will realize that unless he comes to terms with normal skilling his choices are: sell an arm or quit.
New player experience will go south. But perhaps CCP assumes that at this point growth in new subscriptions is not on the table.


unlike now where he sees them buy a character, and the same thing happens. what you're pointing out, yet again, isn't a new problem that will magically appear because of this new system. it already exists.


No one buys a toon on the bazaar to run l2s along newcomers.
A market with an entry level of 1-2 PLEXes (SP transfer) will be much more pervasive than character bazaar.

You knew this very well when writing. And that why I'm not going to waste more time on this kind of "arguments".


obviously not, the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet.
Karin Yang
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2653 - 2015-10-17 19:58:26 UTC
Estevan Andrard wrote:
It is amazing how determinism get people to absurds that seem logic.

If you strip away the history of EVE, reason for the views the veterans have.
If you strip away the fan boys, the people who like eve because they are enthusiastic.

Again, if you strip away everything that doesnt contradict your view, then you are right.

That is amazing how someone can think of it as being a valid point. Well, entire political campaigns in the Caldari States of Lonetrek were built upon, so I dont expect some people to understand how bogus it is.

So ok, lets try: If I strip all the water, cool-aid is actually solid ! (mind blown, ha !)

People play games not only because they like the game, but because there is other people playing.

According to statistics, lack of players in a MMO shows twice as much as content low quality and counterproductive control combined as reasons people leave MMOs. So yeah, the legacy of players and what makes them stay is very important for gathering new players. Trade the satisfaction of those already playing to try get new players is the one single worse move every mmo has made right before their fall.

Lost Hope also figures higher in informed quit list than long learning curve. It is barely the last thing in all the lists people quitting because it takes too long to get to the cap level. And at the present, people are even fed up with games you join today and get cap level tomorrow. The worse problem in this regard is not the length of the process, but the meaning of the pursuit.

To fix the problem of skills, giving skills is just accelerating the real issue, which is the meaning of training the skills. Again, it is not because of tradition, but because of logic, in old times, it was clear the impression that waiting long to sit in a battleship was oh so cool. That made people want to wait. The mistake was not keep the time to get to battleships, but "balance" under the influence of so called "elite pvpers", and make the time you wait to proper fly a battleship get you a ship that is little more than a advanced cruiser that takes the same time to proper fly it.

Even science says that the wait for the reward gives more pleasure to the brain than the reward itself, provided that the reward matches the wait. What upsets people is the null gain. It wont solve the problem to get people in a Battleship in no time, if piloting it is still little more than just single digit DPS increase over a lesser number of classes.

People will gladly wait if those already there give the perception that it is worth it.

People will still quit, if they quickly can see for themselves that even the short wait gives them little to nothing.

Better investment would be to make better placement of the different classes of ship reflecting the time it takes to fly them, rather than giving it all and balancing for "anyone can fly this in no time" scenario.

I got to pilot capitals when fly a capital was "oh so epic". The wait and the expectation is better than today when if you say "I can fly a capital" in local, someone will answer "Cool, who doesnt ?".

I can understand some of views from you veterans after reading your post. Well let's follow your logic. As new player, they will never have a chance to feel your satisfaction you once have. After months of training, they can fly a battleship, but "who doesn't?" After years of training, they can fly a carrier, but "who doesn't". So does that mean this game is not worth playing anymore, because new player can never be the tier one? Not true. The game is worth playing because there are more goals to be achieved. It mush be different from veterans' goal, because these goals are no longer achievable. It can be "to be a good FC", or "to be very rich", but not "to fly a carrier" because who doesn't?
If you think keep player waiting longer, they can get more pleasure, you forgot your assumption that the reward should match the wait, which is no longer true.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2654 - 2015-10-17 20:01:29 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dror wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
And if it hurts retention?


if skipping arbitrary wait times for new players to actually do things in eve hurts retention - then nothing will improve it.

as for single data points, ******* lol - watch the show; they quite clearly state that most of the high level players in null have at some point purchased a character at some point.

buying and selling SP isn't new and already exists.


Yeah, new players are going to use this extensively and milk and honey for all. Sorry, not buying it. I do not believe that all the new players are going to be buying PLEX to speed up their training times. Some will, but my guess it is a small fraction.

As for your "additional" data, were they all a week old at the time? If you don't know, then more bullcrap straws. Go find out.

There's no reason to make the game out as if it's so interesting at low SP. If there's a method of progression in-game, how is that not them benefiting? Whether they capitalize on their options or quit is up to the game to seem interesting at that level.


I didn't say it was not benefiting them though. I'm just saying I don't think that many will avail themselves to it and to the extent they do it will be somewhat limited.

But feel free to assume that all new players are going shell out $80+ on top of their subscription via this mechanism. Roll

A single PLEX is being touted as the plausible price for 4 of these -- that's 2M SP, which is clearly helpful.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#2655 - 2015-10-17 20:01:31 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
OMG you got 2 data points!!!!

OMG OMG OMG OMG.

Roll

Comeback when you have a random sample of players...say 1,000. Until then stop talking out of your butt.

Oh, and yeah it mattes how old they were, you were defending the position that Laz Telraven bought a character 1 week in game, implying that this is somewhat common.


gorski did the same - read his CZ article.

i don't need more than 2 data points. 2 people - players. it's very simple.

we objectively know new players do buy characters. we're not discussing how many do it - i'm telling you new players do it. as illustrated by the fact that two high profile characters have said so and we know new players are encouraged to do so.

i don't need a sample of 1000 to tell you it happens. i only need a sample size that big to give you an estimate of how many do.
Well, as a long time character trader (8+ years), I can definitively say that plenty of new players buy characters. Always have and always will.

Just sayin'

Mr Epeen Cool
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#2656 - 2015-10-17 20:02:22 UTC
Trolling is the utmost proof it is a bad idea.

Giving trolling players the means to build WMDs is not a good idea.

CCP already lols over the things that can be achieved by using alts. Imagine if they also serve as "Atomic Skill Enrichment".

It is like the Church instead of teaching moral, start to sell absolution. You know how that turned out. lol

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?

Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2657 - 2015-10-17 20:14:01 UTC
Its been an eye opener today thats for sure.

For the life of me i cannot understand how some can think that buying a legacy character with all its foibles is in anyway like buying a pile of skill packets - create a clean slate - send said packets to new toon - instant say, tengu pilot - drop a derp a lose your lvl5 offensive/defensive tree - no prob nip back inject a couple of packs away you go again.

what a complete crock.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2658 - 2015-10-17 20:14:40 UTC
Talsha Talamar wrote:
http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1

Just a thing I wanted to leave here:

Dave Stark 187 (7,1%)
Querns 128 (4,8%)
Don ZOLA 98 (3,7%)
Teckos Pech 96 (3,6%)

Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda.


Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis. P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2659 - 2015-10-17 20:21:10 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Its been an eye opener today thats for sure.

For the life of me i cannot understand how some can think that buying a legacy character with all its foibles is in anyway like buying a pile of skill packets - create a clean slate - send said packets to new toon - instant say, tengu pilot - drop a derp a lose your lvl5 offensive/defensive tree - no prob nip back inject a couple of packs away you go again.

what a complete crock.
Because SP loss from losing a T3 cruiser is the best mechanic in the game... Roll

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Morihei Akachi
Doomheim
#2660 - 2015-10-17 20:21:18 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
… the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet.

One could argue, though, that that's a problem with level 2s etc. Surely there’s something a bit problematic about a situation in which new players are confronted with a suboptimal game experience and then offered an option to pay extra in order to avoid it. On one reading, that's providing freedom of choice; on another, though, it's just bad game design. I'd be inclined to go for the latter.

"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and don’t belong in Eve Online. (And as for “scoped” …)