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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Dave stark
#2621 - 2015-10-17 19:12:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Teckos Pech wrote:
Another reason not to go with this proposal. It is adding a largely passive form of income to the game which CCP has always indicated is less than desired.


it's no different to dedicating a whole character slot to training a character then selling it on the bazaar and using the isk of the sold character to offset the plex cost.

the vast majority of the "problems" with this proposal already exist - because the character bazaar is a thing.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2622 - 2015-10-17 19:15:32 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Pretty sure most scammers, corp thiefs, etc. are older players too....

I don't see this helping retention much...tbqh. But maybe I'm wrong...maybe we'll start trending back up and be at around 48,000 players on average logged in vs. 24,000.

But I doubt it.


maybe. laz telraven on the meta show on 30/9/15 said he purchased a new character within like a week. gorski, the csm member, said on Crossing Zebras in his article about this that not long after staring he purchased a character...

it's not just old players that purchases high SP characters, it's players that are new to the game as well.

laz even goes as far as to say "100m sp is low".

https://youtu.be/LQAnaMTptgA?t=39m23s source. (might have to rewind it a bit)

doesn't really matter if it helps retention or not - improving retention has never been stated to be the purpose of this change.


Yeah I too like to reason from a single data point. It's awesome because you can explain ANYTHING with it. Roll

And if it hurts retention? A change that hurts retention when the average number of players is below what it was 1, 2, even 3 years ago....is ******* stupid.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Black Pedro
Mine.
#2623 - 2015-10-17 19:16:57 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:

That is a massive change over the status quo. Sure, in theory you could do something similar now using the character bazaar and an extra slot on the account, but that requires months or years of planning and the ability to front the significant PLEX cost.


To be fair, those months and years of planning have already been going on for months and years. You can buy a fleet of whatever specialized pilots you want right now thanks to people like me that have been creating specialized characters for sale since forever. They will have no standings, no corp history and no reputation. And be a fraction of the price of making them using the proposed system.

Either way the important factor is time over return. It will always be a better return to sell a character made with the current method than banging out a character at double or triple the price from packets. SP trading is just not going to be the big game breaker all the sky-is-falling crowd think it is. It's set up that way.

Mr Epeen Cool

I honestly am not so concerned about trading SP - as you say this has been going on for years. The concern I am raising is the proliferation of alts needed to supply these SP packets. There will a dramatic increase in alts to supply that SP, and a corresponding increase in PLEX prices to fund them. These SP packets have greater utility than a pre-made character on the bazaar and thus are going to be in more demand (depending on what price CCP sets for the extractor I guess). In addition, economic forces are going to mean these SP-farmed alts will be used by gankers and industrialists for cheap multiboxing accounts further distorting the economy and game play of Eve.

It's clearly not my call, and I will be the first in line make a couple additional gank alts which I can fund almost completely by selling off the SP, but it should be made clear that this will impact the overall economy in ways that the character bazaar has not.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2624 - 2015-10-17 19:17:43 UTC

Moac Tor wrote:
But on a more serious not if CCP takes their game design decisions based upon redit feedback then we would be playing a wow clone before you know it.


I guess you haven't been paying attention.

https://twitter.com/ccp_fozzie/status/654724219184386049

CCP Fozzie wrote:
@CCP_Fozzie: Informal poll: RT if you're on Team @EliseRandolph https://t.co/eBBoWALz4W Fave if on Team @Sort_Dragon https://t.co/YXAIT6bTOA #tweetfleet


Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2625 - 2015-10-17 19:18:00 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Another reason not to go with this proposal. It is adding a largely passive form of income to the game which CCP has always indicated is less than desired.


it's no different to dedicating a whole character slot to training a character then selling it on the bazaar and using the isk of the sold character to offset the plex cost.

the vast majority of the "problems" with this proposal already exist - because the character bazaar is a thing.


So, you notice a problem...so lets double down on it? Seriously? Starting to sound like being stuck on stupid.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
tainted demon
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#2626 - 2015-10-17 19:18:21 UTC  |  Edited by: tainted demon
Dave Stark wrote:
tainted demon wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
tainted demon wrote:
I don't understand the point of this new change other than to **** off your entire player base.

why not make this so i can re distribute my SP or some of it 1 time a year like remapping attributes this way if you make a ship i have a lot of SP in useless (CAPS) i can put that SP into other skills and ships that fit the meta.
Why would i have to pay CCP for SP when i already pay a subscription for the SP I'm transferring (if I'm moving SP about between my own accounts?)

The 1 thing that keeps me in this game is I have alot of TIME invested. 6 months for a sleipnir is a long time to wait to fly 1 ship ect. what is the point of wasting all that time if i can just buy 20mil SP and get it over night. EVE will loose the 1 thing it has holding it's older players the TIME we have all spent training for what we want

Speaking of older players if this is going to go ahead can you explain the reason why old players with more SP are being punished for supporting your game for the many years they have?

WILL CCP's NEXT CHANGE MAKE PLEX'S ADD LESS GAME TIME FOR OLDER PLAYERS?
NEW PLAYERS GET 30 DAYS
OLD PLAYERS GET 10 DAYS

seems to me that is where we are going these days


because as we've gone through in the last like 5 pages - the ultimate outcome of "remapping my own sp" ends up with the same situation as just buying and selling SP via the proposal. in both situations you end up with a character with the allocated exactly as you want it.

you can already buy 20m sp over night, it's called the character bazaar.

if you read the devblog they explain exactly why there's a diminishing returns system. honestly, i feel like people need to actually read the devblog before posting.


no i do understand i can buy a 100mil sp toon if i wanted too but then im stuck with whatever skills were trained i cant just train 30 skills to lvl 5 in 2 mins then go fight someone who took 2-3 years to get there. that is a big difference that again only applies to young players not old ones and makes all the time i have invested into my younger alts a complete waste of time


so you buy one with the skills trained that you want. there's more than 1 character on the bazaar.

no, it isn't a big difference. whether you purchase the character wholesale or you hatched one this morning and juiced it up on transneural packets is irrelevant. you're still taking a 100m sp pilot to a fight.

there's no character age limit to buying characters on the bazaar that i know of, and any character will be able to inject packets. so i have no idea what you're talking about with "younger alts being a waste of time".


you seem to be missing the point so let me explain

There is no age limit on bazzar but there is in this
the more SP your character has the less SP you will gain from buying SP this = young players can only grow to a point untill they also suffer for having too much SP in their head (that alone makes no sense when i can already buy a new character with more SP.) - read the dev blog it's all there

The fact we have all invested money and TIME into our accounts is what keeps us coming back we are invested. so a change that is great for new players but limits older players like this is stupid if you're going to change anything it make it fair for all!

to the part about me wasting time
why have i wasted 7 months dual training my alts up to be useful when i can wait for this change and get all my lower SP toons up to 50mil over night = I should stop buying plex and cancel some subs and save some money for this new feature

goes back to what I'm talking about if players don't need to invest TIME in eve, the game looses what sets it apart from other games also older player who have a lot invested feel hung out to dry.

still with me?
Dave stark
#2627 - 2015-10-17 19:20:15 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
And if it hurts retention?


if skipping arbitrary wait times for new players to actually do things in eve hurts retention - then nothing will improve it.

as for single data points, ******* lol - watch the show; they quite clearly state that most of the high level players in null have at some point purchased a character at some point.

buying and selling SP isn't new and already exists.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2628 - 2015-10-17 19:20:49 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:

That is a massive change over the status quo. Sure, in theory you could do something similar now using the character bazaar and an extra slot on the account, but that requires months or years of planning and the ability to front the significant PLEX cost.


To be fair, those months and years of planning have already been going on for months and years. You can buy a fleet of whatever specialized pilots you want right now thanks to people like me that have been creating specialized characters for sale since forever. They will have no standings, no corp history and no reputation. And be a fraction of the price of making them using the proposed system.

Either way the important factor is time over return. It will always be a better return to sell a character made with the current method than banging out a character at double or triple the price from packets. SP trading is just not going to be the big game breaker all the sky-is-falling crowd think it is. It's set up that way.

Mr Epeen Cool

I honestly am not so concerned about trading SP - as you say this has been going on for years. The concern I am raising is the proliferation of alts needed to supply these SP packets. There will a dramatic increase in alts to supply that SP, and a corresponding increase in PLEX prices to fund them. These SP packets have greater utility than a pre-made character on the bazaar and thus are going to be in more demand (depending on what price CCP sets for the extractor I guess). In addition, economic forces are going to mean these SP-farmed alts will be used by gankers and industrialists for cheap multiboxing accounts further distorting the economy and game play of Eve.

It's clearly not my call, and I will be the first in line make a couple additional gank alts which I can fund almost completely by selling off the SP, but it should be made clear that this will impact the overall economy in ways that the character bazaar has not.


And almost surely in ways that are hard to predict. Economies are complex dynamic systems. Anyone who thinks they can predict the outcomes of such a system with a high degree of certainty is either an idiot or a person with and agenda.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dave stark
#2629 - 2015-10-17 19:22:35 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Another reason not to go with this proposal. It is adding a largely passive form of income to the game which CCP has always indicated is less than desired.


it's no different to dedicating a whole character slot to training a character then selling it on the bazaar and using the isk of the sold character to offset the plex cost.

the vast majority of the "problems" with this proposal already exist - because the character bazaar is a thing.


So, you notice a problem...so lets double down on it? Seriously? Starting to sound like being stuck on stupid.


double down on what? you're pretending we're doubling something. we're not. passive income has always been there in the very same format - selling SP.

pretending it's a problem now is just laughable.
Dave stark
#2630 - 2015-10-17 19:24:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
tainted demon wrote:
why have i wasted 7 months dual training my alts up to be useful


because you weren't smart enough to just buy new characters from the bazaar?

players will always need to invest time in eve. where do you think these SP are coming from. thin air?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2631 - 2015-10-17 19:24:41 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
And if it hurts retention?


if skipping arbitrary wait times for new players to actually do things in eve hurts retention - then nothing will improve it.

as for single data points, ******* lol - watch the show; they quite clearly state that most of the high level players in null have at some point purchased a character at some point.

buying and selling SP isn't new and already exists.


Yeah, new players are going to use this extensively and milk and honey for all. Sorry, not buying it. I do not believe that all the new players are going to be buying PLEX to speed up their training times. Some will, but my guess it is a small fraction.

As for your "additional" data, were they all a week old at the time? If you don't know, then more bullcrap straws. Go find out.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#2632 - 2015-10-17 19:24:52 UTC
It is amazing how determinism get people to absurds that seem logic.

If you strip away the history of EVE, reason for the views the veterans have.
If you strip away the fan boys, the people who like eve because they are enthusiastic.

Again, if you strip away everything that doesnt contradict your view, then you are right.

That is amazing how someone can think of it as being a valid point. Well, entire political campaigns in the Caldari States of Lonetrek were built upon, so I dont expect some people to understand how bogus it is.

So ok, lets try: If I strip all the water, cool-aid is actually solid ! (mind blown, ha !)

People play games not only because they like the game, but because there is other people playing.

According to statistics, lack of players in a MMO shows twice as much as content low quality and counterproductive control combined as reasons people leave MMOs. So yeah, the legacy of players and what makes them stay is very important for gathering new players. Trade the satisfaction of those already playing to try get new players is the one single worse move every mmo has made right before their fall.

Lost Hope also figures higher in informed quit list than long learning curve. It is barely the last thing in all the lists people quitting because it takes too long to get to the cap level. And at the present, people are even fed up with games you join today and get cap level tomorrow. The worse problem in this regard is not the length of the process, but the meaning of the pursuit.

To fix the problem of skills, giving skills is just accelerating the real issue, which is the meaning of training the skills. Again, it is not because of tradition, but because of logic, in old times, it was clear the impression that waiting long to sit in a battleship was oh so cool. That made people want to wait. The mistake was not keep the time to get to battleships, but "balance" under the influence of so called "elite pvpers", and make the time you wait to proper fly a battleship get you a ship that is little more than a advanced cruiser that takes the same time to proper fly it.

Even science says that the wait for the reward gives more pleasure to the brain than the reward itself, provided that the reward matches the wait. What upsets people is the null gain. It wont solve the problem to get people in a Battleship in no time, if piloting it is still little more than just single digit DPS increase over a lesser number of classes.

People will gladly wait if those already there give the perception that it is worth it.

People will still quit, if they quickly can see for themselves that even the short wait gives them little to nothing.

Better investment would be to make better placement of the different classes of ship reflecting the time it takes to fly them, rather than giving it all and balancing for "anyone can fly this in no time" scenario.

I got to pilot capitals when fly a capital was "oh so epic". The wait and the expectation is better than today when if you say "I can fly a capital" in local, someone will answer "Cool, who doesnt ?".

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2633 - 2015-10-17 19:26:55 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Another reason not to go with this proposal. It is adding a largely passive form of income to the game which CCP has always indicated is less than desired.


it's no different to dedicating a whole character slot to training a character then selling it on the bazaar and using the isk of the sold character to offset the plex cost.

the vast majority of the "problems" with this proposal already exist - because the character bazaar is a thing.


So, you notice a problem...so lets double down on it? Seriously? Starting to sound like being stuck on stupid.


double down on what? you're pretending we're doubling something. we're not. passive income has always been there in the very same format - selling SP.

pretending it's a problem now is just laughable.


Where did I pretend it is just now a problem? I have noted that CCP is not in favor of sources of passive income and have done things in the past to try and remove them or shift them over to being more active income streams.

You point out that the character bazaar is a form of passive income. Okay, fine. Now we are going to not only keep that source of passive income we are going to expand on it.

In effect, doubling down on something that is largely a form of passive income.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2634 - 2015-10-17 19:29:18 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
And if it hurts retention?


if skipping arbitrary wait times for new players to actually do things in eve hurts retention - then nothing will improve it.

as for single data points, ******* lol - watch the show; they quite clearly state that most of the high level players in null have at some point purchased a character at some point.

buying and selling SP isn't new and already exists.


Yeah, new players are going to use this extensively and milk and honey for all. Sorry, not buying it. I do not believe that all the new players are going to be buying PLEX to speed up their training times. Some will, but my guess it is a small fraction.

As for your "additional" data, were they all a week old at the time? If you don't know, then more bullcrap straws. Go find out.

There's no reason to make the game out as if it's so interesting at low SP. If there's a method of progression in-game, how is that not them benefiting? Whether they capitalize on their options or quit is up to the game to seem interesting at that level.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2635 - 2015-10-17 19:30:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Delegate
Teckos Pech wrote:

New player:
1 account, 2 slots
paltry ISK.

His options, go shell out at least another $19.95 for a PLEX and maybe get up to 2.4 million SP. Yet another $19.95 and now he is at 4.4 million SP. And not knowing the game as well as the older player he probably did not allocate those skills that well. Maybe in spaceship command he has just enough to get into a BS. And for gunnery he skipped all the support skills. Then he runs into an older player in a svipul and is eaten alive. He logs off pissed as **** because his big ship just died to a little ship! WTF. And WTF, he spent nearly $55 ******* dollars. **** Eve, **** CCP, and what the **** is on television.

Anyone who thinks that newer players will be using this as much or more than an older player...I think they are sadly mistaken.

A new player might buy 1 may 2 SP packets after selling a PLEX in game, but my guess that is about it.


And that new player will be seeing his peers buy SP. He will see them more efficient at missions. More efficient at exploration. More efficient at mining. Whatever path he chooses there will very likely be players around of similar age but more efficient... because they paid. So maybe he will buy few packs, simply to not feel left behind by what supposed to be his peers. But ultimately he will realize that unless he comes to terms with normal skilling his choices are: sell an arm or quit.
New player experience will go south. But perhaps CCP assumes that at this point growth in new subscriptions is not on the table.
Dave stark
#2636 - 2015-10-17 19:30:25 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Another reason not to go with this proposal. It is adding a largely passive form of income to the game which CCP has always indicated is less than desired.


it's no different to dedicating a whole character slot to training a character then selling it on the bazaar and using the isk of the sold character to offset the plex cost.

the vast majority of the "problems" with this proposal already exist - because the character bazaar is a thing.


So, you notice a problem...so lets double down on it? Seriously? Starting to sound like being stuck on stupid.


double down on what? you're pretending we're doubling something. we're not. passive income has always been there in the very same format - selling SP.

pretending it's a problem now is just laughable.


Where did I pretend it is just now a problem? I have noted that CCP is not in favor of sources of passive income and have done things in the past to try and remove them or shift them over to being more active income streams.

You point out that the character bazaar is a form of passive income. Okay, fine. Now we are going to not only keep that source of passive income we are going to expand on it.

In effect, doubling down on something that is largely a form of passive income.


it's not a problem, though.
Dave stark
#2637 - 2015-10-17 19:31:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
And if it hurts retention?


if skipping arbitrary wait times for new players to actually do things in eve hurts retention - then nothing will improve it.

as for single data points, ******* lol - watch the show; they quite clearly state that most of the high level players in null have at some point purchased a character at some point.

buying and selling SP isn't new and already exists.


Yeah, new players are going to use this extensively and milk and honey for all. Sorry, not buying it. I do not believe that all the new players are going to be buying PLEX to speed up their training times. Some will, but my guess it is a small fraction.

As for your "additional" data, were they all a week old at the time? If you don't know, then more bullcrap straws. Go find out.


does it matter how old they all were?
we already know new players do it. and we know they're encouraged to do it.
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#2638 - 2015-10-17 19:33:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Freelancer117
Time for another MASS-PROTEST, after Incarna greed is good debalce, CCP Games still has not learned the lesson X

source: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=536826276


Cya you in Amarr, on the Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy station undock, shooting the monument !

Regards, a Freelancer


PS: Time to make stand against this Bullshit all over again, like we did in 2011 and made the Company change policy.
https://ardentdefense.wordpress.com/2011/06/24/eve-jita-mass-protest/

CCP Seagull wrote:

Quote:
#51 - 2014-05-12 17:11:55 UTC
Freelancer117 wrote:


May I remind CCPgames about this dev blog:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/accord-reached-at-ccps-special-summit/

"We have expressed our deep concern about potential grey areas that the introduction of virtual goods permits, and CCP has made a commitment to discuss any proposals that might fall into these grey areas in detail with CSM at the earliest possible stage."

Hope that awareness has not dissipated over the years.

Regards, a Freelancer



Nothing has changed in our approach since that blog - the same principles still apply, and we will still discuss all new plans with the CSM.


source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4583354#post4583354

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
Dave stark
#2639 - 2015-10-17 19:36:12 UTC
Delegate wrote:
And that new player will be seeing his peers buy SP. He will see them more efficient at missions. More efficient at exploration. More efficient at mining. Whatever path he chooses there will very likely be players around of similar age but more efficient... because they paid. So maybe he will buy few packs, simply to not feel left behind by what supposed to be his peers. But ultimately he will realize that unless he comes to terms with normal skilling his choices are: sell an arm or quit.
New player experience will go south. But perhaps CCP assumes that at this point growth in new subscriptions is not on the table.


unlike now where he sees them buy a character, and the same thing happens. what you're pointing out, yet again, isn't a new problem that will magically appear because of this new system. it already exists.
Chrome Veinss
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2640 - 2015-10-17 19:45:37 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Dror wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Dror wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
No, the Buddy Invite program is still in full effect. You get either 30-days game time or a PLEX for having a buddy (or your new ganker alt accout) subscribe, even if they use a PLEX to do so.

It only supplies PLEX through actual payment.

Whatever. It supplies 30 days of gameplay. Which is functionally equivalent to a PLEX for those that pay with PLEX, and of equal value to a month's gametime for those who pay by subscription.

The point is that using the Buddy Program you can get yourself an alt with 60-day training for no extra cost (effectively free). That is enough for a near max DPS ganking alt, a pretty decent PI alt, an effective mining alt or a useful industry alt. You can then harvest the SP each month to cover most of the PLEX cost to keep it running indefinitely - you have effectively a free alt and can do this as many times as you would like.

Whether that is good or not I pass no judgement. This devblog and this thread is to explore this proposal which is what I am doing: this change dramatically lowers the cost of fixed SP alts.

Make of that what you will.

The point is that they can't just alt themselves a PLEX's worth of injectors.

That was never my point. My point is that you've made Eve effectively free-to-play for accounts that don't care about accumulating skill points. That will have profound effects on the economy as everyone can now run as many mining (or PI or industry) alts as they want for a fraction of a PLEX each. It will also enable each ganker to run as many ganking alts as their hardware can handle for practically no additional cost.

That is a massive change over the status quo. Sure, in theory you could do something similar now using the character bazaar and an extra slot on the account, but that requires months or years of planning and the ability to front the significant PLEX cost. Now, any Tom, ****, or Harry can run as many alts as they want and just harvest the SP to pay most of the cost of the next month's PLEX cost.

This will impact the economy and provide significant upwards pressure on PLEX prices.


Most people dont have or want alts and pay for their game time with a single subscription. I'll be sad if PLEX prices keep increasing and it becomes nothing but a toy for the richest and nerdiest to get more and more alts. But ultimately I dont see the problem with people getting alts per se. I hated all the hassle that a single alt account involved and unsubbed it. If other people find it somehow fun to manage 10 alt accounts then.... whatever.

Dont get me wrong there IS a problem. A huge problem. But it has more to do with gameplay and core mechanics than with PLEX prices, alts, sp or any other specific part of the game. The problem is that a lot of Eve's gameplay is so mindless, trite and boring that a single person *can* manage 3, 5 or even 10 clients at the same time. Every single Eve activity should be engaging to the point that it demands 100% of a human's attention, even mining. CCP could create these sp packets while also improving the gameplay in all areas to the point where a single person can no longer run 10 reaction farms or multibox an incursion fleet and the result would be a net decrease in alts (and a net increase in fun).