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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Karin Yang
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2501 - 2015-10-17 15:08:50 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Nothing, but if you now have a toon that does everything you want why would you ?


but you don't, you don't even need/want that character anyway. it exists to be sold. you have a toon somebody else wants - you just rejigged the SP to what they were looking for. they listed what they want, you recreated your character to do what they want then you're going to sell it to them.

that's entirely within the realm of "you can only move sp within your own head".

instead of creating a new account and just dumping packets on it (as per the new system) you've got a character with the exact same skillset. so as i said - does it matter really matter who injects the SP?


Yes because having the ability to do a complete skill remap on your character is not the same as buying XXX packets of skill points from another source

The "New system" is ever increasing amounts being spent on it, a remap is just recycling your skillpoints into another doctrine going from an indie / miner to pure combat as such

Buying a character from bazaar is already a way to get skill point from another source. You blocked the window, leaving the door open, and you're saying that's different?
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2502 - 2015-10-17 15:09:53 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Nothing, but if you now have a toon that does everything you want why would you ?


but you don't, you don't even need/want that character anyway. it exists to be sold. you have a toon somebody else wants - you just rejigged the SP to what they were looking for. they listed what they want, you recreated your character to do what they want then you're going to sell it to them.

that's entirely within the realm of "you can only move sp within your own head".

instead of creating a new account and just dumping packets on it (as per the new system) you've got a character with the exact same skillset. so as i said - does it matter really matter who injects the SP?


Yes because having the ability to do a complete skill remap on your character is not the same as buying XXX packets of skill points from another source


the outcome is the very same.

you have a character with a skillset you have specified.

so like i said, if the outcome is identical; does it matter if the seller has to do all the injecting, or if the buyer has to do all the injecting?


PRICE ShockedShocked

Yours in exopnentially expensive, im talking of a 1 of fee to remap your own skill set

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dave stark
#2503 - 2015-10-17 15:12:35 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Nothing, but if you now have a toon that does everything you want why would you ?


but you don't, you don't even need/want that character anyway. it exists to be sold. you have a toon somebody else wants - you just rejigged the SP to what they were looking for. they listed what they want, you recreated your character to do what they want then you're going to sell it to them.

that's entirely within the realm of "you can only move sp within your own head".

instead of creating a new account and just dumping packets on it (as per the new system) you've got a character with the exact same skillset. so as i said - does it matter really matter who injects the SP?


Yes because having the ability to do a complete skill remap on your character is not the same as buying XXX packets of skill points from another source


the outcome is the very same.

you have a character with a skillset you have specified.

so like i said, if the outcome is identical; does it matter if the seller has to do all the injecting, or if the buyer has to do all the injecting?


PRICE ShockedShocked

Yours in exopnentially expensive, im talking of a 1 of fee to remap your own skill set


psst, we're talking about Eschin's idea of only being able to extract and allocate SP to the same character.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2504 - 2015-10-17 15:13:27 UTC
Karin Yang wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Nothing, but if you now have a toon that does everything you want why would you ?


but you don't, you don't even need/want that character anyway. it exists to be sold. you have a toon somebody else wants - you just rejigged the SP to what they were looking for. they listed what they want, you recreated your character to do what they want then you're going to sell it to them.

that's entirely within the realm of "you can only move sp within your own head".

instead of creating a new account and just dumping packets on it (as per the new system) you've got a character with the exact same skillset. so as i said - does it matter really matter who injects the SP?


Yes because having the ability to do a complete skill remap on your character is not the same as buying XXX packets of skill points from another source

The "New system" is ever increasing amounts being spent on it, a remap is just recycling your skillpoints into another doctrine going from an indie / miner to pure combat as such

Buying a character from bazaar is already a way to get skill point from another source. You blocked the window, leaving the door open, and you're saying that's different?


The bazaar your buying a legacy toon as is, its history and skill set in place. Your not buying a portrait with 20 / 30 / 40 mill skillpoints to set as you wish.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#2505 - 2015-10-17 15:14:24 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Nothing, but if you now have a toon that does everything you want why would you ?


but you don't, you don't even need/want that character anyway. it exists to be sold. you have a toon somebody else wants - you just rejigged the SP to what they were looking for. they listed what they want, you recreated your character to do what they want then you're going to sell it to them.

that's entirely within the realm of "you can only move sp within your own head".

instead of creating a new account and just dumping packets on it (as per the new system) you've got a character with the exact same skillset. so as i said - does it matter really matter who injects the SP?


Yes because having the ability to do a complete skill remap on your character is not the same as buying XXX packets of skill points from another source


He's right it's a ridiculous idea, it does nothing for new players who have no skill points to begin with, but it does show the mindset of players who are against the change: apparently we don't mind bending the unbendable rules of eve if it helps established players.
Karin Yang
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2506 - 2015-10-17 15:18:21 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Karin Yang wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Nothing, but if you now have a toon that does everything you want why would you ?


but you don't, you don't even need/want that character anyway. it exists to be sold. you have a toon somebody else wants - you just rejigged the SP to what they were looking for. they listed what they want, you recreated your character to do what they want then you're going to sell it to them.

that's entirely within the realm of "you can only move sp within your own head".

instead of creating a new account and just dumping packets on it (as per the new system) you've got a character with the exact same skillset. so as i said - does it matter really matter who injects the SP?


Yes because having the ability to do a complete skill remap on your character is not the same as buying XXX packets of skill points from another source

The "New system" is ever increasing amounts being spent on it, a remap is just recycling your skillpoints into another doctrine going from an indie / miner to pure combat as such

Buying a character from bazaar is already a way to get skill point from another source. You blocked the window, leaving the door open, and you're saying that's different?


The bazaar your buying a legacy toon as is, its history and skill set in place. Your not buying a portrait with 20 / 30 / 40 mill skillpoints to set as you wish.

Not so many people are caring about portrait. As some character farmer said in this thread that only 10% really care that, while it is only a set of skill points for the other 90%
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#2507 - 2015-10-17 15:18:25 UTC
I have yet again, removed some off-topic/trolling/disrespectful posts.

Quote:
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A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.

4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.

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Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

ISD Decoy

Captain

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Interstellar Services Department
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2508 - 2015-10-17 15:19:16 UTC
psst, we're talking about Eschin's idea of only being able to extract and allocate SP to the same character.[/quote]

Look above Eschin's post, that is what he was answering too.

Quote:
Makes you wonder how this feature would fair against offering a yearly or paid for service of complete skill remapping Twisted

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Eschin
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2509 - 2015-10-17 15:20:37 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Brother Bathana wrote:
Eschin wrote:
This VERY interesting to me because I just subbed for the first time in a while and was in help chat wishing there was a way to do this just a few days ago, almost like CCP listened to what I was saying, HOWEVER:

I wanted to be able to repurpose (possibly with a loss factored in) certain skills for my own character. I really don't think we should be able to migrate SP from one char to another, but from WITHIN a char, with a penalty for doing, YES, sounds like a great idea, but again I think it would defeat the purpose of SP itself if it was too easy or cheap.



Hire this guy for Team size matters, he has his stuff straight what the eve community wants :)


"wtb 50m sp pilot, allocated as follows: {list}, will pay 20bn isk" *prices pulled out of my ass for example purposes only.

then some one sees that, repurposes their alt by shuffling SP around then sells it.

is it really that different to just buying the SP from the seller and injecting your own skills? does it matter whether it's the buyer or seller injecting the SP?


I think so... like you said it's still conceivable but idk about how much that would be done in practice... requires another party, it's harder and would no doubt be very expensive you'd still be much better off probably buying a char close to what you want to "molding" it some.... and it is something that should be hard to do.

Of course there probably should be restrictions on the amount of SP you can reallocate at one time (read up there about being able to reallocate all of your SP at one OMG that would definitely be the end of Eve), and/or restrictions on how soon you can sell after you have reallocated points, but I do agree with the sentiment we don't need to be able to create perfect characters for someone else's instant gratification because they paid enough for it pay2win or have character factories minting these characters. That would destroy Eve.
Dave stark
#2510 - 2015-10-17 15:26:16 UTC
Eschin wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Brother Bathana wrote:
Eschin wrote:
This VERY interesting to me because I just subbed for the first time in a while and was in help chat wishing there was a way to do this just a few days ago, almost like CCP listened to what I was saying, HOWEVER:

I wanted to be able to repurpose (possibly with a loss factored in) certain skills for my own character. I really don't think we should be able to migrate SP from one char to another, but from WITHIN a char, with a penalty for doing, YES, sounds like a great idea, but again I think it would defeat the purpose of SP itself if it was too easy or cheap.



Hire this guy for Team size matters, he has his stuff straight what the eve community wants :)


"wtb 50m sp pilot, allocated as follows: {list}, will pay 20bn isk" *prices pulled out of my ass for example purposes only.

then some one sees that, repurposes their alt by shuffling SP around then sells it.

is it really that different to just buying the SP from the seller and injecting your own skills? does it matter whether it's the buyer or seller injecting the SP?


I think so... like you said it's still conceivable but idk about how much that would be done in practice... requires another party, it's harder and would no doubt be very expensive you'd still be much better off probably buying a char close to what you want to "molding" it some.... and it is something that should be hard to do.

Of course there probably should be restrictions on the amount of SP you can reallocate at one time (read up there about being able to reallocate all of your SP at one OMG that would definitely be the end of Eve), and/or restrictions on how soon you can sell after you have reallocated points, but I do agree with the sentiment we don't need to be able to create perfect characters for someone else's instant gratification because they paid enough for it pay2win or have character factories minting these characters. That would destroy Eve.


so if the end result is "a character with the exact set of skills that you want" whether some one rejigs it and sells it to you, or you buy it and rejig it... does it really matter if some one makes a 1 day old character and dumps a bunch of skill packets on to it?

in all 3 scenarios you just end up with a character with exactly the skills you want. restricting it to "you can only reallocate your own SP" doesn't really change the situation.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2511 - 2015-10-17 15:28:50 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Eschin wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Brother Bathana wrote:
Eschin wrote:
This VERY interesting to me because I just subbed for the first time in a while and was in help chat wishing there was a way to do this just a few days ago, almost like CCP listened to what I was saying, HOWEVER:

I wanted to be able to repurpose (possibly with a loss factored in) certain skills for my own character. I really don't think we should be able to migrate SP from one char to another, but from WITHIN a char, with a penalty for doing, YES, sounds like a great idea, but again I think it would defeat the purpose of SP itself if it was too easy or cheap.



Hire this guy for Team size matters, he has his stuff straight what the eve community wants :)


"wtb 50m sp pilot, allocated as follows: {list}, will pay 20bn isk" *prices pulled out of my ass for example purposes only.

then some one sees that, repurposes their alt by shuffling SP around then sells it.

is it really that different to just buying the SP from the seller and injecting your own skills? does it matter whether it's the buyer or seller injecting the SP?


I think so... like you said it's still conceivable but idk about how much that would be done in practice... requires another party, it's harder and would no doubt be very expensive you'd still be much better off probably buying a char close to what you want to "molding" it some.... and it is something that should be hard to do.

Of course there probably should be restrictions on the amount of SP you can reallocate at one time (read up there about being able to reallocate all of your SP at one OMG that would definitely be the end of Eve), and/or restrictions on how soon you can sell after you have reallocated points, but I do agree with the sentiment we don't need to be able to create perfect characters for someone else's instant gratification because they paid enough for it pay2win or have character factories minting these characters. That would destroy Eve.


so if the end result is "a character with the exact set of skills that you want" whether some one rejigs it and sells it to you, or you buy it and rejig it... does it really matter if some one makes a 1 day old character and dumps a bunch of skill packets on to it?

in all 3 scenarios you just end up with a character with exactly the skills you want. restricting it to "you can only reallocate your own SP" doesn't really change the situation.


You dont think there is a difference in buying skill points and rehashing your own character ??

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2512 - 2015-10-17 15:32:20 UTC
If you think theres no difference then why not just go all out and say why all this bollox, why dont CCP just sell skill points for cash

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dave stark
#2513 - 2015-10-17 15:33:17 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
You dont think there is a difference in buying skill points and rehashing your own character ??


obviously there's a difference. in the same way there's a difference between walking to work and cycling to work. one is more hassle, one is less hassle, but either way you end up at work.

if the you always end up with the same result - why add an arbitrary restriction that doesn't do anything?
Dave stark
#2514 - 2015-10-17 15:34:03 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
If you think theres no difference then why not just go all out and say why all this bollox, why dont CCP just sell skill points for cash


because now you're just producing SP out of thin air - which is completely different to any of the scenarios we're discussing.
Eschin
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2515 - 2015-10-17 15:35:34 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Eschin wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Brother Bathana wrote:
Eschin wrote:
This VERY interesting to me because I just subbed for the first time in a while and was in help chat wishing there was a way to do this just a few days ago, almost like CCP listened to what I was saying, HOWEVER:

I wanted to be able to repurpose (possibly with a loss factored in) certain skills for my own character. I really don't think we should be able to migrate SP from one char to another, but from WITHIN a char, with a penalty for doing, YES, sounds like a great idea, but again I think it would defeat the purpose of SP itself if it was too easy or cheap.



Hire this guy for Team size matters, he has his stuff straight what the eve community wants :)


"wtb 50m sp pilot, allocated as follows: {list}, will pay 20bn isk" *prices pulled out of my ass for example purposes only.

then some one sees that, repurposes their alt by shuffling SP around then sells it.

is it really that different to just buying the SP from the seller and injecting your own skills? does it matter whether it's the buyer or seller injecting the SP?


I think so... like you said it's still conceivable but idk about how much that would be done in practice... requires another party, it's harder and would no doubt be very expensive you'd still be much better off probably buying a char close to what you want to "molding" it some.... and it is something that should be hard to do.

Of course there probably should be restrictions on the amount of SP you can reallocate at one time (read up there about being able to reallocate all of your SP at one OMG that would definitely be the end of Eve), and/or restrictions on how soon you can sell after you have reallocated points, but I do agree with the sentiment we don't need to be able to create perfect characters for someone else's instant gratification because they paid enough for it pay2win or have character factories minting these characters. That would destroy Eve.


so if the end result is "a character with the exact set of skills that you want" whether some one rejigs it and sells it to you, or you buy it and rejig it... does it really matter if some one makes a 1 day old character and dumps a bunch of skill packets on to it?

in all 3 scenarios you just end up with a character with exactly the skills you want. restricting it to "you can only reallocate your own SP" doesn't really change the situation.


Cant you already have that now? Maybe not perfectly exactly down to the SP but if you can buy a char for every need... that exists... and while I'm not a huge fan of the bazaar because you need a right of passage on skills you need time to understand them and utilize them fully because the game isnt just about SP and ISK the human plays a huge role here... and we see all the time people that have too much isk and SP than what they know to do with... and Eve finds a way to make it right to some extent :) Folks that get ISK or SP before they really have earned it, tend to not use it correctly at all anyway, which creates content for the other Eve players that know what they are doing :)
Josef Djugashvilis
#2516 - 2015-10-17 15:36:58 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
If you think theres no difference then why not just go all out and say why all this bollox, why dont CCP just sell skill points for cash


No matter how it is presented and sugar coated, this is precisely what they intend to do really...

This is not a signature.
Revan Daedrus
Space Gladiators
Templis CALSF
#2517 - 2015-10-17 15:39:09 UTC
PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS, one of the most rewarding parts of eve is that you cannot grind or purchase your way to the top, when you get a new skill it hold meaning because it took you real time to achieve it. This thread should be titled pay to win because that is what this change will do. This will alienate every long term eve player and it will destroy one of EVEs most unique properties. I would go so far as to say that this will ruin the game at its very core. I beg of you, do not do this.
Dave stark
#2518 - 2015-10-17 15:39:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
If you think theres no difference then why not just go all out and say why all this bollox, why dont CCP just sell skill points for cash


No matter how it is presented and sugar coated, this is precisely what they intend to do really...


at least at the moment they're limiting the supply to how fast the community can collectively train said SP. just spawning it out of thin air takes that limit and throws it out of the window, down the street, and in to the gutter.

Eschin wrote:
Cant you already have that now?


yes, which is why the restriction of "you can only reallocate your own SP" is an irrelevant restriction.
zhan zula
The Haussmann Cargo Cult
#2519 - 2015-10-17 15:41:44 UTC  |  Edited by: zhan zula
Then what's the point of the choices i make?

-why does it matter what skills i train?
-why is my character my own, what makes it unique?

One of the things that makes eve attractive to me is that your choices actually do matter, they are tied to your char forever, and it takes time to compensate for any mistakes.

-do i specialize in one type of weapon for example, or do i take a more general approach?
-this is respceccing for money. plain and simple. and that's a bad thing.

it should matter what char you are using, the history of that character should matter, the choices you have made should matter.

what makes "zhan zula" "zhan zula"?
it should be the sum of the choices i've made and the time put in, not simply the amount of money paid.

consider this:
-do you think we should be able to rename characters and erase their history?
-if you don't, you should care about the integrity of that character, and not allow it to be modified other than by ingame progression.


"zhan zula" should not change her character or history, only progress in competence.
Eschin
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2520 - 2015-10-17 15:45:05 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
If you think theres no difference then why not just go all out and say why all this bollox, why dont CCP just sell skill points for cash


No matter how it is presented and sugar coated, this is precisely what they intend to do really...


at least at the moment they're limiting the supply to how fast the community can collectively train said SP. just spawning it out of thin air takes that limit and throws it out of the window, down the street, and in to the gutter.

Eschin wrote:
Cant you already have that now?


yes, which is why the restriction of "you can only reallocate your own SP" is an irrelevant restriction.


So you really want to eliminate the SP variable from the equation?
What are you saying really this is completely ok or the game is already pay to win?