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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Dave Stark
#2481 - 2015-10-17 13:48:12 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Hang on here, so in the realms of creating perfect toons now, either new or jacking unwanted skills from an existing toon to perfect it why would there be a need for a bazaar ???


because the character bazaar is still the only way to sell a whole character.

not to mention, a character trained using the skill queue to 80m SP would be SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than one trained to 80m SP by injecting packets.


So now ill do a Dave Stark and refer you back to the blog

"Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for now"

If this new character bastardization come to pass and is far more lucrative than there 2 plex/20 dollar transfer fee, you really think they will keep it.


hard to say.

how often do you hear "i'm biomassing this character"? i don't hear it alot other than "go biomass" as an insult/euphemism. that means that there are always more characters - which is more potential sales. we've seen how many characters are traded daily from the devblog.

the two systems achieve the same thing, but are totally separate. if both are making money - why would you scrap one? even more than that - they compliment each other.

a guy drops a bunch of plex on skill packets (whether that's using the isk to buy them from the market or siphoning them from another character they own) and then spend even more plex selling it to another dude... if you remove the bazaar the guy might not bother fixing his skill issues and subsequently selling that character.

who knows - they might even scrap the character bazaar because they might let you quite literally sell a brain in a box and move character trading totally in-game. honestly, who knows?
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2482 - 2015-10-17 14:00:30 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Hang on here, so in the realms of creating perfect toons now, either new or jacking unwanted skills from an existing toon to perfect it why would there be a need for a bazaar ???


because the character bazaar is still the only way to sell a whole character.

not to mention, a character trained using the skill queue to 80m SP would be SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than one trained to 80m SP by injecting packets.


So now ill do a Dave Stark and refer you back to the blog

"Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for now"

If this new character bastardization come to pass and is far more lucrative than there 2 plex/20 dollar transfer fee, you really think they will keep it.


hard to say.

how often do you hear "i'm biomassing this character"? i don't hear it alot other than "go biomass" as an insult/euphemism. that means that there are always more characters - which is more potential sales. we've seen how many characters are traded daily from the devblog.

the two systems achieve the same thing, but are totally separate. if both are making money - why would you scrap one? even more than that - they compliment each other.

a guy drops a bunch of plex on skill packets (whether that's using the isk to buy them from the market or siphoning them from another character they own) and then spend even more plex selling it to another dude... if you remove the bazaar the guy might not bother fixing his skill issues and subsequently selling that character.

who knows - they might even scrap the character bazaar because they might let you quite literally sell a brain in a box and move character trading totally in-game. honestly, who knows?


Comes back round to who benefits most from it, certainly isnt that new guy and everything you mention above is about spending more and more on plex which will send it even higher. Comes a point in a game that you sub for every month and theres more and more need to spend real cash in it when you have to say where do you draw a line at .

Your last comment was refreshing as you were not as vitriolic about it being the way forward, i think this needs way more thought put into it before being implimented

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2483 - 2015-10-17 14:02:45 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Black Pedro wrote:
General Lootit wrote:

Yeap I talked about t2 but firstly I miss the point of PLEX investment. There are no such thing as a free PLEX. Every PLEX cost something.

For t1 SP injection doesn't help much because learning time of quee is 2 hours which should allow you to deal 200 dps. With "Small Blaster Specialization" you could get 500 dps.
No, you get a free PLEX if you subscribe a buddy account.

It is 100%, absolutely free. You can also apply it 1 hour after you start your trial account giving you 60 days of absolutely free training, which will get you just a hair's breadth from 5M SP. And as soon as you apply it you can start to train T2 blasters.

With the latest buff to starting SP, you are well on your way to a max DPS catayst alt for free which you can now sell the SP from to run for next to nothing.

I got it

1) Invite buddy
2) Give PLEX to him
3) He activate it
4) Get PLEX back from CCP for it
5) Buy injector and apply it on buddys account.

For comparison to sec.tag washing if packet will cost about 300kk then for extra 50kk you will get toon with clean history, 0 secstatus , with no kill rights on it and 1kk SP.

Am I right?

EDIT: I was wrong. For activating invited accout with PLEX you will get only free time.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2484 - 2015-10-17 14:05:27 UTC
I imagine nothing at this point is going to be seen by actual devs given that we're 100+ pages in.

I'm concerned that the diminishing returns for higher SP characters aren't quite diminished enough. The effective cost between "new" characters and "old" characters is only going to be 10x per skill point, but the relative wealth of older characters is way more than 10x.

If I'm a new player who farms a bit and gets 1B ISK (a hefty sum) and I buy N of these packets for 500k*N SP with that money. Someone two has 100B or 1T ISK is going to be able to get way more SP (50k*N*100 or 1000) meaning. If you've got 1T ISK you're probably not going to miss 10B of it and given that SP is so valuable, it will probably be considered a worthy investment of funds.

I would suggest capping skill injection at 100M. That's still a pretty old character and a huge boost. You can be proficient at a whole lot of things at 100M skill points and if you want to accelerate you can get rid of some of your skills to bring you back under 100M before injecting.

An added benefit of cutting out 100M+ characters is that it may help bring demand down and help keep prices lower so that new pilots can actually afford these services and to help keep PLEX prices down because AURUM demand stays lower. Though regardless older players are going to have more SP to sell meaning an influx of ISK to their wallets.

A lot of the player retention ideas seem to be around extracting real money from newer players in exchange for older players having lots of ISK. This feels a bit like this will just make that worse. It may help with player retention -- I don't know. But please cap injections so that we don't have trillionaires just dumping tons of money and capping their skill levels.
Dave Stark
#2485 - 2015-10-17 14:15:32 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Comes back round to who benefits most from it, certainly isnt that new guy and everything you mention above is about spending more and more on plex which will send it even higher. Comes a point in a game that you sub for every month and theres more and more need to spend real cash in it when you have to say where do you draw a line at .

Your last comment was refreshing as you were not as vitriolic about it being the way forward, i think this needs way more thought put into it before being implimented


I'm fine with sending plex higher and higher - high plex prices make it harder and harder for illicit RMT to happen. it simply prices them out of the market.

i'd say there's more and more options on how to use plex, i wouldn't say there's more and more need, though. however, yes you do have to look a it and go "what am i willing to spend money on, and how much?"
for me, 2 subscriptions is as much as i'm willing to spend personally (unless ccp start selling awesome stuff like mugs, keychains all that type of stuff (hint ******* hint, guys)). if i want anything else i either buy the plex with isk or go without.

I don't try to be the bad guy - i'm just really really uneloquent (is that a word? i'm the very opposite of eloquent).

i think something that would benefit this proposed system is slashing everything by 1/10. - 500,000 SP at "cost price" based on plex prices is 300m, plus the unknown cost of the extractor. this prices new players out of the market. drop it to 50,000 extracted and whatever price they're thinking for the extractor cut it by 90%. this will give you a cost price of 30m, rather than 300m. 30m is FAR more obtainable for a new player.

yeah the isk/sp is the same however there's a psychological barrier to overcome here. smaller cheaper fixes encourage poorer/new players to think "i can participate in this if i want to" unlike seeing a cliff face of 300m and going "how am i ever going to afford that?" - 300m is a lot to new players, we often forget that when we have billions and trillions in our wallets.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2486 - 2015-10-17 14:26:21 UTC
The other thing to keep in mind is that many corps use skill point minimums to aid in greatly reducing the number of potential spys that apply to your corp. These changes completely undo that when you can recycle the same 5 million skill points on alt after alt.

I would like to point out here that plenty of games have gone by the wayside by giving players what they ask for instead of making a good game. Focus on making a good game not catering to the whinners.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2487 - 2015-10-17 14:31:01 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
General Lootit wrote:

Yeap I talked about t2 but firstly I miss the point of PLEX investment. There are no such thing as a free PLEX. Every PLEX cost something.

For t1 SP injection doesn't help much because learning time of quee is 2 hours which should allow you to deal 200 dps. With "Small Blaster Specialization" you could get 500 dps.
No, you get a free PLEX if you subscribe a buddy account.

It is 100%, absolutely free. You can also apply it 1 hour after you start your trial account giving you 60 days of absolutely free training, which will get you just a hair's breadth from 5M SP. And as soon as you apply it you can start to train T2 blasters.

With the latest buff to starting SP, you are well on your way to a max DPS catayst alt for free which you can now sell the SP from to run for next to nothing.

In order to get your so called "free PLEX" somone must first put 30 days on the account either with another PLEX or real life money. So your "free PLEX" isn't really free. Also when they added the new higher starting skill points they also got rid of the extreemely fast training for new players. So I think that it winds up being a bit of a wash.

My only problem with that is that they insulate new players a bit from their own ignorance which I think is a shame. This game used to be all about learning from your mistakes.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2488 - 2015-10-17 14:32:46 UTC
Makes you wonder how this feature would fair against offering a yearly or paid for service of complete skill remapping Twisted

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Eschin
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2489 - 2015-10-17 14:35:22 UTC
This VERY interesting to me because I just subbed for the first time in a while and was in help chat wishing there was a way to do this just a few days ago, almost like CCP listened to what I was saying, HOWEVER:

I wanted to be able to repurpose (possibly with a loss factored in) certain skills for my own character. I really don't think we should be able to migrate SP from one char to another, but from WITHIN a char, with a penalty for doing, YES, sounds like a great idea, but again I think it would defeat the purpose of SP itself if it was too easy or cheap.
Brother Bathana
DISCOTEKA V GARAZHE
#2490 - 2015-10-17 14:41:02 UTC
Eschin wrote:
This VERY interesting to me because I just subbed for the first time in a while and was in help chat wishing there was a way to do this just a few days ago, almost like CCP listened to what I was saying, HOWEVER:

I wanted to be able to repurpose (possibly with a loss factored in) certain skills for my own character. I really don't think we should be able to migrate SP from one char to another, but from WITHIN a char, with a penalty for doing, YES, sounds like a great idea, but again I think it would defeat the purpose of SP itself if it was too easy or cheap.



Hire this guy for Team size matters, he has his stuff straight what the eve community wants :)
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2491 - 2015-10-17 14:41:50 UTC
I wouldnt get your hopes up, its a company there has to be something in it for them to impliment a change that benefits both sides.

That would negate the need for a character bazaar and the freehold sale of skillpoints, depends if theyre in it for pure profit purposes only or they do actually listen to the client base.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dave Stark
#2492 - 2015-10-17 14:46:02 UTC
Brother Bathana wrote:
Eschin wrote:
This VERY interesting to me because I just subbed for the first time in a while and was in help chat wishing there was a way to do this just a few days ago, almost like CCP listened to what I was saying, HOWEVER:

I wanted to be able to repurpose (possibly with a loss factored in) certain skills for my own character. I really don't think we should be able to migrate SP from one char to another, but from WITHIN a char, with a penalty for doing, YES, sounds like a great idea, but again I think it would defeat the purpose of SP itself if it was too easy or cheap.



Hire this guy for Team size matters, he has his stuff straight what the eve community wants :)


"wtb 50m sp pilot, allocated as follows: {list}, will pay 20bn isk" *prices pulled out of my ass for example purposes only.

then some one sees that, repurposes their alt by shuffling SP around then sells it.

is it really that different to just buying the SP from the seller and injecting your own skills? does it matter whether it's the buyer or seller injecting the SP?
Hulk Miner
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2493 - 2015-10-17 14:49:51 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Makes you wonder how this feature would fair against offering a yearly or paid for service of complete skill remapping Twisted


Skill reset coupon in the Aurum Store
With the coupon all your skills will be reset and points moved to your unallocated pool with the unplugged skills placed in your hanger.


Not if but when selling SP goes live its the natural next step and although I would not use it on my main character I have no issues with this but I do with selling SP, crazy I know.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2494 - 2015-10-17 14:49:54 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Brother Bathana wrote:
Eschin wrote:
This VERY interesting to me because I just subbed for the first time in a while and was in help chat wishing there was a way to do this just a few days ago, almost like CCP listened to what I was saying, HOWEVER:

I wanted to be able to repurpose (possibly with a loss factored in) certain skills for my own character. I really don't think we should be able to migrate SP from one char to another, but from WITHIN a char, with a penalty for doing, YES, sounds like a great idea, but again I think it would defeat the purpose of SP itself if it was too easy or cheap.



Hire this guy for Team size matters, he has his stuff straight what the eve community wants :)


"wtb 50m sp pilot, allocated as follows: {list}, will pay 20bn isk" *prices pulled out of my ass for example purposes only.

then some one sees that, repurposes their alt by shuffling SP around then sells it.

is it really that different to just buying the SP from the seller and injecting your own skills? does it matter whether it's the buyer or seller injecting the SP?


You lost it there bud

Its not for selling, its rehashing your own toon to suit your needs.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dave Stark
#2495 - 2015-10-17 14:51:48 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Brother Bathana wrote:
Eschin wrote:
This VERY interesting to me because I just subbed for the first time in a while and was in help chat wishing there was a way to do this just a few days ago, almost like CCP listened to what I was saying, HOWEVER:

I wanted to be able to repurpose (possibly with a loss factored in) certain skills for my own character. I really don't think we should be able to migrate SP from one char to another, but from WITHIN a char, with a penalty for doing, YES, sounds like a great idea, but again I think it would defeat the purpose of SP itself if it was too easy or cheap.



Hire this guy for Team size matters, he has his stuff straight what the eve community wants :)


"wtb 50m sp pilot, allocated as follows: {list}, will pay 20bn isk" *prices pulled out of my ass for example purposes only.

then some one sees that, repurposes their alt by shuffling SP around then sells it.

is it really that different to just buying the SP from the seller and injecting your own skills? does it matter whether it's the buyer or seller injecting the SP?


You lost it there bud

Its not for selling, its rehashing your own toon to suit your needs.


what's to stop you selling it after you have repurposed it?
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2496 - 2015-10-17 14:54:47 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Brother Bathana wrote:
Eschin wrote:
This VERY interesting to me because I just subbed for the first time in a while and was in help chat wishing there was a way to do this just a few days ago, almost like CCP listened to what I was saying, HOWEVER:

I wanted to be able to repurpose (possibly with a loss factored in) certain skills for my own character. I really don't think we should be able to migrate SP from one char to another, but from WITHIN a char, with a penalty for doing, YES, sounds like a great idea, but again I think it would defeat the purpose of SP itself if it was too easy or cheap.



Hire this guy for Team size matters, he has his stuff straight what the eve community wants :)


"wtb 50m sp pilot, allocated as follows: {list}, will pay 20bn isk" *prices pulled out of my ass for example purposes only.

then some one sees that, repurposes their alt by shuffling SP around then sells it.

is it really that different to just buying the SP from the seller and injecting your own skills? does it matter whether it's the buyer or seller injecting the SP?


You lost it there bud

Its not for selling, its rehashing your own toon to suit your needs.


what's to stop you selling it after you have repurposed it?


Nothing, but if you now have a toon that does everything you want why would you ?

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dave Stark
#2497 - 2015-10-17 14:58:49 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Nothing, but if you now have a toon that does everything you want why would you ?


but you don't, you don't even need/want that character anyway. it exists to be sold. you have a toon somebody else wants - you just rejigged the SP to what they were looking for. they listed what they want, you recreated your character to do what they want then you're going to sell it to them.

that's entirely within the realm of "you can only move sp within your own head".

instead of creating a new account and just dumping packets on it (as per the new system) you've got a character with the exact same skillset. so as i said - does it matter really matter who injects the SP?
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2498 - 2015-10-17 15:01:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Nothing, but if you now have a toon that does everything you want why would you ?


but you don't, you don't even need/want that character anyway. it exists to be sold. you have a toon somebody else wants - you just rejigged the SP to what they were looking for. they listed what they want, you recreated your character to do what they want then you're going to sell it to them.

that's entirely within the realm of "you can only move sp within your own head".

instead of creating a new account and just dumping packets on it (as per the new system) you've got a character with the exact same skillset. so as i said - does it matter really matter who injects the SP?


Yes because having the ability to do a complete skill remap on your character is not the same as buying XXX packets of skill points from another source

The "New system" is ever increasing amounts being spent on it, a remap is just recycling your skillpoints into another doctrine going from an indie / miner to pure combat as such

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dave Stark
#2499 - 2015-10-17 15:04:15 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Nothing, but if you now have a toon that does everything you want why would you ?


but you don't, you don't even need/want that character anyway. it exists to be sold. you have a toon somebody else wants - you just rejigged the SP to what they were looking for. they listed what they want, you recreated your character to do what they want then you're going to sell it to them.

that's entirely within the realm of "you can only move sp within your own head".

instead of creating a new account and just dumping packets on it (as per the new system) you've got a character with the exact same skillset. so as i said - does it matter really matter who injects the SP?


Yes because having the ability to do a complete skill remap on your character is not the same as buying XXX packets of skill points from another source


the outcome is the very same.

you have a character with a skillset you have specified.

so like i said, if the outcome is identical; does it matter if the seller has to do all the injecting, or if the buyer has to do all the injecting?
Majuan Shuo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2500 - 2015-10-17 15:06:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Majuan Shuo
The blog asked for comments, here is mine:

I will take a wait and see approach but at a glance it seems like a terrible idea.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar