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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2461 - 2015-10-17 12:11:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Dror
Mag's wrote:
You ask what is wrong with it, I ask what does it fix.

..Interest in the game. More newbies out of poorly-supported frigate fits is interesting for all. More subs is win-win.

It brings up the question, though, if SP is something just to be bypassed with money (on some level, both the extractor and SP cost something), why the system exists. What does keeping newbies out of capitals fix?

This extractor design is based in something -- whether the science of motivation, an effect that was immediately shown with increased starter SP, or something else. So, if questioning that -- why? Why not question the validity of the system as it was? In fact, it's purely from not getting what's motivating?

Moac Tor wrote:
But... when it comes to things like this I just don't feel like Rise and his team "get it".

You make this out to be a Team Pirate Unicorns idea but have no clue if this is accurate. If you have experience with the topic of SP, you might realize that the initial suggestion is nothing the same. That idea has been in development, now to seemingly be replaced with this idea. Maybe you should weigh all of the truth.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#2462 - 2015-10-17 12:12:40 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
I find your logic flawed as the proposed cost to the SP Package creator is a PLEX. Add that to the cost for the SP and this will come in above the price of a PLEX along with inflating the price of PLEX. Another reason it'll be more than a PLEX is that it's instant SP and not 30 days to train SP. Sure you could just get a PLEX and train for 30 days cheaper but those that want to inject SP immediately will have to pay more. It's how the market works. It's how the trade hubs work, the further you are from Jita the more stuff costs. Want it in Rens, pay Rens prices but if you're willing to wait\travel then go to Jita.
It's not flawed at all. SP can only come from game time. Therefore, these packets will cost the equivalent in PLEX + the cost of the extractor + some small profit. If the cost of the packets is capped at the cost of PLEX as if it rises much above the cost a PLEX, people will just extract a month's worth of game time from a character and buy a PLEX to activate dual-training to replace it for a quick, guaranteed profit.

So a months worth of SP will never cost much more than PLEX + extractor cost. If they ever do for some reason, then you will actually get paid to run a ganking (or mining/PI/whatever) alt. That situation won't last for long before players sell off some SP from an alt and buy a cheaper PLEX to replace that SP for a quick profit.

Unless the extractors cost so much that people decide the packets aren't worth it, they will be in high demand as you say because they are instantaneous progression. Therefore, this upward price pressure will keep them near the price of a PLEX. The only downward pressure will come from the alt farmers who will sell SP at a small loss because they are making easy PI/industry/ganking profit to offset their costs.

Therefore, SP packets prices will track the price of PLEX almost perfectly, but they will also push the demand for PLEX way up to satisfy the new demand for "free" alt accounts. There are a lot of unknowns as to how this shakes out, but definitely there will be massive changes to the economy if this mechanic is put in the game.


I think you're wrong on them tracking the price of a PLEX and there isn't any profit in that for those extracting. It's proposed that the character extracting uses a PLEX+SP Extractor to create the packet. What's the point\where's the profit in it selling for under the price of a PLEX?

Further to that you say people won't pay above the price of a PLEX but will instead activate MCT. That's not addressing the injection of SP as I said, instant SP will cost more than training at standard rate.

As for people offsetting their costs elsewhere, I agree some will, but the market will dictate what may happen and you know most people will sell for as much as possible.

In all honesty I hope this never comes to pass.

If you are right this only means you get a free gank alt + excess ISK from this
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#2463 - 2015-10-17 12:41:42 UTC
Asveron Durr wrote:
Here is something to consider since this skill idea will not assist younger/newer players.......

First few days or coupleof weeks are fine maybe......

But then space rich guy and his few friends ensure they drop their PLEX hoard(some of it) into aurum.
Then purchase the skill extractors....
Then use them on characters they have not been using in a long time....

And only after they have begin snapping up the skill injectors off the market....

Calculations between aurum/plex differences/worth, and equivelancy of RL Money will:
Allow for market manipulation and control, effetively making it impossible for new players to purchase these injectors....

Eventually the plex is much higher than it is today
and the Injecotrs will be soon enough in the range of 500million to 1 billion ISK themselves also.....

This will make the idea into "Golden Ammo" as the only ones able to use it at that point would be those that spend REAL cash on plex or even aurum...because the ISK market is for all intents an purposes in the control of players....and mostly veterans at that.
I could do it....and I am sure the the other EvE moguls out there are thinking of it.....

In effect i predict in a few short months of being implemented as currently stated this "skill idea" becomes a point of RMT and enslavement for new players to established organizations that will setup a way to exploit the "i have to have it now" crowd.

It will fail as valuable change in the game......
an as one person said once already....when a newer player quits he will pass on the knowledge:
1.) you have to spend $15 to subscribe
2.) then buy a plex to cash in to purchase the skill injectors $20
2a.) or buy aurum to get as many skill extractors as possible $20
3.) you will also have to fork over $20 for a plex to train a 2nd character or $15 for a character on another account

Just to be effective......and that is how the "i want it now" crowd will think and behave....
Bad reviews and word of mouth that EvE will cost approx $30 - $60 every month or every other month or so to be competitive will destroy player retention more so than now. It will no longer be seen as the $15 per month subscription game by a greater number of people than many realize. It will be seen as a PAY TO WIN game on par with many others, but more expensive.

And this is not including the fact of those that may buy plex for ISk to get the ships they will be able to fly after injections only to lose them faster because they have no practical experience how to truly play this game.

CCP promised us no "Golden Ammo" ideas, they practically promised us they would not establish a money grab scheme like so many other games do or have done, and some of those have failed os miserably they are either stagnant as well in player numbers or do not exsist anymore.

IF Hilmar and compant really wish to kill off one of Icelands top income makers....then who are we to stop them. But if they are looking to truly see EvE last a full decade at full steam ahead they would be well advised to reconsider this idea.
Veteran Players will scheme and break everything you introduce into this game.....becaue that is what we do, this is no different except you will be literally handing over the keys to your finances and ability to grow this time in ways you simply do not unable fathom at this point.
Might as well go public and start letting veteran players buy actual CCP stock.


Absolutely this, the perceived barrier of entry will seem even bigger than now. Where newbros thought they had to wait before they will now feel they have to pay pay pay and pay more and still wait quite a bit unless they are minted IRL. The NPE is going to be even worse... it could be dealt with so much better than this proposed mess.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#2464 - 2015-10-17 12:44:28 UTC
I tried to copy and paste from a longer blogpost I wrote 'My ramblings on 'Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading' Dev Blog' but got 'There was an issue with parsing this post's BBCode' error. So I'll just leave this here for those that want to read it and this:

Challenge the perception of "never being able to catch up" and advertise the success of small frigate gangs\rookie ship gangs or New Bros doing awesome things. There are plenty of them out there.

A quick YouTube search revealed plenty of videos of rookies taking on higher weight classes in fights and winning. There's also lots of other videos about "What to do when you start out", PVPing in a Rookie Ship, along with hilarious Haulers killing a Vengeance and Vagabond

Allowing this to pass will open the door to more and more abuse and destruction of what EVE was built on, what attracted players like myself to commit 12 years to a game both in time and in monetary terms as subscriptions.

This quick-fix for the instant gratification of new players that probably won't invest IRL money or time over the period of their subscription would be developed over the coffin of the customer lifetime value (CLTV) who have kept EVE Online going for the past 12 years is wrong on so many levels.

With this proposal is "floating" is not only the destruction of a core fundamental being destroyed but was a foundation stone of the phenomenon that was and hopefully is EVE Online, it made those decisions count, it made you care to research, to learn and to apply what you learned to what you could do. It meant that your actions, be it training, trading, scamming, spying or whatever you did in EVE it had consequences. You picked the wrong skill to train because you were new\didn't research\queued the wrong skills and you can't fly that Interceptor but you can fly Frigates, Rookie Ships, Cruisers or whatever you can still do things in EVE Online.

Big isn't always best, frigates and rookie ships can and have taken down battleships worth 100x what those frigates are worth but those guys that do and did, they remember those days, while they were waiting for that other skill to complete.

And in years to come they'll look back and that feeling will still be with them of the day that they dared to do. The day they, with their lower SP but using game mechanics and cunning took on a 12 year old player and killed his battleship. That check mark on their hull (soon to be released) may entice them to never fly that ship again and it may even remain with them until Tranquility is turned off for the last time.

You say "We want to make sure training decisions are still very important" but they won't be if you offer this service. This goes against the 'choices and consequences' implicit in EVE Online if you can rollback (at a slight cost) the choices you made. Some decisions are based around mistakes, how many pilots selected the wrong skill that took them down a path they never thought of just because they'd trained that skill. How many professions have been opened by these errors and how many are now masters of them. With this change I foresee that people will just "cash out" their mistake with the the "undo" button that CCP are providing in this proposal and inject what they needed rather than seeing what they can do with that skill that they trained to Level 4.

All that aside, the aim of this is provide new players with an accelerated experience to EVE Online. I get that, I really do but you're doing it at the expense of the long term customer and de-valuing those characters and their skillsets.

There are already in-game items to help new players called Cerebral Accelerators albeit with severe character age restrictions. Lift the bar a little more on the age that these will work at and add them a bit more to loots\DEDs\Data and\or Relic sites to make them more available. Hell, I'd even go so far as to say give them it as a starter item but link in how to use it and what it's for. There are far better ways to get new guys into ships faster than this.

While this post touted a Character Bazaar change it did nothing for it. Again, CCP have attempted to fix something that isn't broken while leaving the broken out-of-game thing alone, floundering as it does but with "the 70 or so character transfers that happen every day". Ask yourselves why?

CCP want more people to buy more PLEX and thus increase the companies profits. They're entitled to, that's the nature of business...but a company who launches a new website on the same day as this Dev Blog was published and put EVE: Valkyrie first on the list of products kind of shows contempt\lack of thought behind the design and maybe the writing is on the web with this new site.

CCP cites the following as their values (all over their new website):

We are fearless. We are pioneers. We are bold and innovative.
We pursue excellence. We engage in the relentless pursuit of beauty.
We are CCP. We don't believe in the word "impossible"
We stand united. We are individually diverse, yet banded together in common purpose and resolve.

Why aren't they pursuing excellence by making the Character Bazaar more in-game, more user friendly, part of the UI? Why do they fear challenging that part pf the EVE experience as this was the premise for this latest Dev Blog. Why are they going for something so radical that's resulted in a 114 page threadnaught?

Bottomline is the bottomline: Greed.
To what end or low are CCP prepared to go, who knows but this could be a sign of things to come.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#2465 - 2015-10-17 12:47:19 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


according to the devblog it's to make things more granular and give you more control.


More control means more speculation/manipulation, a commodity as desirable as skillpoints (about as desirable a commodity as you are likely to get in this game) will be manipulated to death. New bros are going to be disappointed if they see this as a way to get into the game much quicker, unless they have a lot of real life wedge.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2466 - 2015-10-17 12:50:54 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Asveron Durr wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:

On the plus side, this change coupled with the recent buff in skill points is a huge boon to the New Order and other highsec gankers. Using the trial period and the free PLEX for a buddy account, you can almost have a near max DPS 5M SP Catalyst ganking alt for free which you can then run indefinitely, also for near free, by harvesting the SP each month. Free gank alts for everyone, and as many as your machine can run at one time, should make our job of bringing highsec into compliance that much easier.

You can't learn blasters on trial account.

I am pretty sure you can. But it won't be a trial account anymore as soon as you use your free buddy PLEX to activate it.



Have to use this quote since your editing your last post almost by the minute General Lootit.....

Your wrong about the blasters, sure maybe not about t2 but you do not need t2 for a cheap effective gank alt

Yeap I talked about t2 but firstly I miss the point of PLEX investment. There is no such thing as a free PLEX. Every PLEX cost something.

For t1 SP injection doesn't help much because learning time of quee is 2 hours which should allow you to deal 200 dps. With "Small Blaster Specialization" you could get 500 dps.
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#2467 - 2015-10-17 12:52:44 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
After 12 years, there's an SP imbalance in the game. Some chars have more than they need (me on my alts, for example, even though I'm just playing since 2 years), newbros have less than they need (to play with the big boys).

If I could believe that sp trading would generally lead to a flow of sp from older accounts (including alts) to new players (not alts), I'd tentatively support it. But I don't for a second think that will actually happen.
a25639
Doomheim
#2468 - 2015-10-17 12:58:13 UTC  |  Edited by: a25639
Certainly there will be no profit in creating skill packages. It would be free ISK and everyone would do it. It would increase skill package supply reducing skill package price until no profit can be made anymore.

In fact I guess many people would be willing to create and sell skill packages even if they only get like 60% of the costs. There are many focussed alts or very high sp characters who no longer need more skills. Those characters will train skills for the sole purpose of selling them to reduce their subscription costs.

On the other hand the buyers are probably willing to pay up to 90% of the standard training costs for instant sp. They won’t pay much more because it would be more expensive than just buying a character from the character bazaar. Only a very few characters with more than 50m sp will use this feature because it really doesn’t makes much sense for them.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#2469 - 2015-10-17 13:05:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
General Lootit wrote:

Yeap I talked about t2 but firstly I miss the point of PLEX investment. There are no such thing as a free PLEX. Every PLEX cost something.

For t1 SP injection doesn't help much because learning time of quee is 2 hours which should allow you to deal 200 dps. With "Small Blaster Specialization" you could get 500 dps.
No, you get a free PLEX if you subscribe a buddy account.

It is 100%, absolutely free. You can also apply it 1 hour after you start your trial account giving you 60 days of absolutely free training, which will get you just a hair's breadth from 5M SP. And as soon as you apply it you can start to train T2 blasters.

With the latest buff to starting SP, you are well on your way to a max DPS catayst alt for free which you can now sell the SP from to run for next to nothing.
Dave Stark
#2470 - 2015-10-17 13:08:24 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


according to the devblog it's to make things more granular and give you more control.


More control means more speculation/manipulation, a commodity as desirable as skillpoints (about as desirable a commodity as you are likely to get in this game) will be manipulated to death. New bros are going to be disappointed if they see this as a way to get into the game much quicker, unless they have a lot of real life wedge.


so, no different to how the character bazzar works now. you know, the thing we'll still also have after this change.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2471 - 2015-10-17 13:14:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Dave Stark wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


according to the devblog it's to make things more granular and give you more control.


More control means more speculation/manipulation, a commodity as desirable as skillpoints (about as desirable a commodity as you are likely to get in this game) will be manipulated to death. New bros are going to be disappointed if they see this as a way to get into the game much quicker, unless they have a lot of real life wedge.


so, no different to how the character bazzar works now. you know, the thing we'll still also have after this change.



"Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for now"

If it does turn into a new cash cow you think they will keep something that diminishes their return Roll

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#2472 - 2015-10-17 13:15:05 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


according to the devblog it's to make things more granular and give you more control.


More control means more speculation/manipulation, a commodity as desirable as skillpoints (about as desirable a commodity as you are likely to get in this game) will be manipulated to death. New bros are going to be disappointed if they see this as a way to get into the game much quicker, unless they have a lot of real life wedge.


so, no different to how the character bazzar works now. you know, the thing we'll still also have after this change.


If it's no different than the CB why are they changing it ? More control means more manipulation, your arguments are becoming more obtuse and weak as you singlehandedly try to argue against the entire eve-o forum by yourself, I admire your commitment. :)

Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#2473 - 2015-10-17 13:20:23 UTC
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2474 - 2015-10-17 13:27:36 UTC
I was hoping that it was april fools but we're in october.

I can't believe that you guys are seriously considering doing this. This is so broken I don't even know where to start.

I keep telling new players that skill points aren't everything and that learning the game is much more important. The eveiseasy youtube channels seems to prove that.

Now you want to let new players buy skill points. They already think that the skill points are what is holding them back. Now they'll just buy the SP and then quit the game when they still can't pwn. They call the game broken.

This is such a bad and game breaking idea.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Dave Stark
#2475 - 2015-10-17 13:27:51 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


according to the devblog it's to make things more granular and give you more control.


More control means more speculation/manipulation, a commodity as desirable as skillpoints (about as desirable a commodity as you are likely to get in this game) will be manipulated to death. New bros are going to be disappointed if they see this as a way to get into the game much quicker, unless they have a lot of real life wedge.


so, no different to how the character bazzar works now. you know, the thing we'll still also have after this change.


If it's no different than the CB why are they changing it ? More control means more manipulation, your arguments are becoming more obtuse and weak as you singlehandedly try to argue against the entire eve-o forum by yourself, I admire your commitment. :)



i'm going to say it again; read the devblog.

it's answered in there.
Dave Stark
#2476 - 2015-10-17 13:29:11 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


according to the devblog it's to make things more granular and give you more control.


More control means more speculation/manipulation, a commodity as desirable as skillpoints (about as desirable a commodity as you are likely to get in this game) will be manipulated to death. New bros are going to be disappointed if they see this as a way to get into the game much quicker, unless they have a lot of real life wedge.


so, no different to how the character bazzar works now. you know, the thing we'll still also have after this change.



"Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for now"

If it does turn into a new cash cow you think they will keep something that dimishes their return Roll


there's an ever increasing number of characters, there may or may not be an ever increasing number of SP depending on the popularity of this new mechanic.

regardless of how much of a cash cow this is - removing something with an ever expanding potential market is hardly sensible.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2477 - 2015-10-17 13:33:07 UTC
further having reputation follow character sales was a good thing. When people thought about corp theft they had to deal with the decreased value of the character. This throws that right out the window. Now people can destroy a character and then just sell off the skill points or just trade the skill points to their new character.

You might as well just allow name changes. I thought decisions were supposed to have consequences? So much broken here.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2478 - 2015-10-17 13:34:07 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


according to the devblog it's to make things more granular and give you more control.


More control means more speculation/manipulation, a commodity as desirable as skillpoints (about as desirable a commodity as you are likely to get in this game) will be manipulated to death. New bros are going to be disappointed if they see this as a way to get into the game much quicker, unless they have a lot of real life wedge.


so, no different to how the character bazzar works now. you know, the thing we'll still also have after this change.



"Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for now"

If it does turn into a new cash cow you think they will keep something that dimishes their return Roll


there's an ever increasing number of characters, there may or may not be an ever increasing number of SP depending on the popularity of this new mechanic.

regardless of how much of a cash cow this is - removing something with an ever expanding potential market is hardly sensible.


Hang on here, so in the realms of creating perfect toons now, either new or jacking unwanted skills from an existing toon to perfect it why would there be a need for a bazaar ???

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Dave Stark
#2479 - 2015-10-17 13:38:48 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Hang on here, so in the realms of creating perfect toons now, either new or jacking unwanted skills from an existing toon to perfect it why would there be a need for a bazaar ???


because the character bazaar is still the only way to sell a whole character.

not to mention, a character trained using the skill queue to 80m SP would be SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than one trained to 80m SP by injecting packets.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2480 - 2015-10-17 13:42:16 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Hang on here, so in the realms of creating perfect toons now, either new or jacking unwanted skills from an existing toon to perfect it why would there be a need for a bazaar ???


because the character bazaar is still the only way to sell a whole character.

not to mention, a character trained using the skill queue to 80m SP would be SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than one trained to 80m SP by injecting packets.


So now ill do a Dave Stark and refer you back to the blog

"Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for now"

If this new character bastardization come to pass and is far more lucrative than there 2 plex/20 dollar transfer fee, you really think they will keep it.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”