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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2021 - 2015-10-16 17:53:30 UTC

Laodell wrote:
Not trying to belittle you in any way here, but here's a very relevant truth:

You haven't spent the time to grow a character for the years the older players have, to be able to appreciate the audacity of your statement. You cannot be asked to hold a valid opinion on a topic you have no frame of reference to understand.


Laodell wrote:
Because you can't wish consequences away. Who you are, in game or out, is a reflection of the choices you or the previous owner made. That's part of the consequences, or balance if I may, of buying SP though the purchase of a new toon.


Moac Tor wrote:
If you want a game with no consequences then why are you playing Eve?


This is exactly why the change is good. "Consequences" for skill choices is not interesting gameplay. In fact, training skills isn't gameplay at all.

I understand you have emotional and philosophical objections against the change but nowhere in your arguments do I see how this change will negative affect gameplay or subscriptions.

The fact that you think that Skill Points belonging specifically to a character is holy is not relevant. That's your opinion, and I respect it, but it is not an opinion CCP (obviously) shares.



Laodell wrote:
Just being able to abstract the purchase of the SP through whatever euphemism is still paying to win.

Again, we already have the Character Bazaar. That line has already been crossed.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#2022 - 2015-10-16 17:54:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Xelitras
Please add your pros and cons to the list below:

pros:

  • pilots can get rid of unwanted skills (less important than it was when we had to pay for gradually more expensive medical clone updates)
  • reduces boring waiting periods for long skill plans
  • boost to new players ability to get into T2 ships as often required by PvP groups
  • players having been unsubbed for a while can buy back training time (with the risk of unsubbing, because keeping up training is not a strict requirement anymore. Resubbing is less likely than getting back on an already subbed account) [post #1901 by RavenPaine]


cons:

  • T3 pilots being able to immediately replace SP lost when their ship explodes changes the way T3 was designed to affect pilots.
  • Newbs could skip entire parts of the game and learning experience to jump to a percieved end-game with possible disappointment. (losing the "looking foward to fly x" and replacing it by "... started playing last week, bought a Dread and it sucks, I quit")
  • Rich alliances could bolster their ranks with higher SP pilots by simply buying them SP packs.
  • Possible meta / exploits: farming SP with PLEXed alts to sell SP. (with likely PLEX price increase at a disadvantage to new players facing sub-subscription based game with P2W mechanics) [Ima Wreckyou] post #1952
  • a part from PLEX and character Bazar allowing new players to circumvent character progression, new players would immediately face unequal starting conditions as opposed to the level playing field it is now [Laodell] post #1958
  • Seasoned players would buy all available SP Booster Packs and leave newbros with none. Bad for NPE. [Portmanteau] post# 2021
  • Immediate SP reallocation each time there's a new flavour of the month (again might push SP farming alts)



edit: post numbers cited don't match up anymore. I guess some posts in the beginning of the thread are being removed by ISD for violating forum TOS.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#2023 - 2015-10-16 17:57:06 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:

I`d like eve pen again and some of the posters :)

I have no idea about the costs about the skins, i probably opened aur store when they started it, laughed on it and closed it. Make up does not add anything in game experience to me.

I do not have anything against anything what will really benefit the game. If CCP wants, give every new player 10-20-50 mil sp straight away. I do thing it is wrong approach but if that would be what is needed to keep the game healthy then be it.

I have the problem with introduction of this system which is determined to fail while changing game fundamentals which will cause a lot of unhappy customers, meaning even less players. And I do not think micro transactions are the model which can work properly in eve. It would change the game too much, in the wrong direction.


i've seen the isk prices of some of the skins - assuming that's relative to the cost of aur/plex/whatever - they're hilariously expensive. like half a plex for a red caracal or something outrageous.

to be honest i do wonder who's actually going to find this the most useful other than new players with more irl currency than they know what to do with. the conversion rate for high sp players is terrible, and the price for non-credit card warrior new players will be too high to really benefit from when they're low sp.

to be honest eve-o is probably the most negative place about this change. reddit was pretty ok with it other than the odd few nay-sayers when the blog first appeared.

I like the subscription model too, to be honest. you know exactly where you stand with that.


That means we are actually agreeing on more subjects. I do not like where this is heading to! :P

Though I would never buy them myself I am fine with isk sinks like skins etc, there is too much isk in the game and people who do not know what to do with it anymore.

As you stated very small amount of new players will actually utilize this. And I expect same amount of older players as well, just to fix some mistakes from the past. So CCP will not gain much, while they risk getting unhappy customers.

I have not read reddit as I am not active there, but i do think there were plenty of solid arguments for potential side effects which are great risk compared to so low gain they can expect.

And subscription model is about consistency, so you like that too! :)


probably heading nowhere good.

thinking about it, maybe it's perfect. price new players out of the market so they can't "waste" isk buying unallocated SP and dumping it in to skills like mining V, and destroying the return for old players so it doesn't become a game of "who can throw more isk at packets". the people that are left are the 20-50m sp crowd who have decent isk making capabilities who know enough to get good return from the packages at a not to obscene price and who won't waste them on mining V? just get people through some of those grueling V skills. hac V, recon V, racial cruiser V, medium weapon V etc.

reddit's not so bad. i like the less restricted moderation there. and the layout (once you get used to it, at first i thought it was awful but it's far easier to find replies on reddit)


I am afraid it will push players even more in isk farming, as I suspect it will make people to focus on "who can throw more isk at packets". Depending on prices, it is questionable how much it will be used even by 20-50mil sp ones, but they are probably the only one who can have some meaningful return of investment there.

I dislike reddit layout, really cba to even try to get used to it, ie i have opened it once and never gave it a chance :)

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2024 - 2015-10-16 17:59:06 UTC

Ima, I'll respond to the PLEX price portion of your argument in a different post.



Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Since you can now create gank alts within 16min you can start the queue on the SP farm alt right away.


Your colleague has already explained how the 400k rookie pilot (today) can turn into an 82% max dps efficient gank alt in about 9 days and 350 dps pilot in 15 minutes.

Regardless of how little time it takes to train a gank munchkin, it is still against EULA to recycle alts for ganking purposes, so I'm not sure what the problem here is that you're highlighting.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#2025 - 2015-10-16 18:00:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Gregor Parud wrote:
100 pages in one day.

I would hope that the devs in question now realise their mistake, although them not doing so before hand is already bad enough.


The majority of posts are by around ten people having the typical forum meltdown you'd expect when CCP attempts to stray from the status quo.

It's not the size that matters, it's the content. And there's not a lot of content in this thread. Just froth and tears.

Mr Epeen Cool
BlackWilk
Cloaked Goof
Goonswarm Federation
#2026 - 2015-10-16 18:01:53 UTC  |  Edited by: BlackWilk
I disagree completely on selling skill points. Here are my reasonings.

- I have always loved eve over other MMO's because of the lack of pay2win aspect

- I get you can buy toons and isk for ships but that doesnt feel game breaking because just because you have it doesnt mean you know how to use it. it also means you value your in game time more than your real life money is all. This should never be a factor when going up against someone. Imagine trying to play chess in a tournament where the person you are playing is a millionaire and you work at subway, but you are both allowed to pay 500$ to change a rule of the game.

- I play games so that the aspects of the game is what is involved with the game. Meaning I dont want a persons real life wallet or lack of personal accounting skills to be a factor in whether I have the skills to take on a pilot.

- It is game breaking in that we often as pilots check the age of a toon to estimate what they may or may not be capable of.

- If you argue that this isnt pay to win, consider someone who is responsible with their money and takes care of their family who has played for years going up against someone who has too much money and a toon a few months old who paid a fortune to have the skills of a 5 year old player.

- This will also create the ability for players who have multiple accounts or double training accounts who have a mining toon that doesnt need more skills to pay money for their main to receive extra training each month. They also wont even lose the isk since they will be selling the SP to themselves. Theoretically able to have a main who now receives double or triple the regular sp/month.

TL:DR - Creating the ability to sell skill points will be game breaking and create a pay2win game. because I dont like my wallet being a factor in my ability to play a game I would cease to play one of my favorite games.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2027 - 2015-10-16 18:03:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Sibyyl
Jill Xelitras wrote:
cons:

  • T3 pilots being able to immediately replace SP lost when their ship explodes changes the way T3 was designed to affect pilots.

    • Already a slippery slope created when CCP dropped clone grades.

  • Newbs could skip entire parts of the game and learning experience to jump to a percieved end-game with possible disappointment. (losing the "looking foward to fly x" and replacing it by "... started playing last week, bought a Dread and it sucks, I quit")

    • Character Bazaar

  • Rich alliances could bolster their ranks with higher SP pilots by simply buying them SP packs.

    • Is this even an argument? Rich alliances can attack you with a blob.

  • Possible meta / exploits: farming SP with PLEXed alts to sell SP. (with likely PLEX price increase at a disadvantage to new players facing sub-subscription based game with P2W mechanics) [Ima Wreckyou] post #1952

    • If you haven't checked, Character Bazaar has plenty of farmed characters for sale.


  • a part from PLEX and character Bazar allowing new players to circumvent character progression, new players would immediately face unequal starting conditions as opposed to the level playing field it is now [Laodell] post #1958

    • I'll address the PLEX price argument in another post


  • Seasoned players would buy all available SP Booster Packs and leave newbros with none. Bad for NPE. [Portmanteau] post# 2021

    • SP Booster Packs have diminishing returns for seasoned pilots. I'm not sure what hoarding SP accomplishes.


  • Immediate SP reallocation each time there's a new flavour of the month (again might push SP farming alts)

    • SP allocation isn't free. A lot of the arguments in thread (like this one) seem to think there's no cost or penalty to it.



My responses in bold-italics.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Dave stark
#2028 - 2015-10-16 18:04:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Mr Epeen wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
100 pages in one day.

I would hope that the devs in question now realise their mistake, although them not doing so before hand is already bad enough.


The majority of posts are by around ten people having the typical forum meltdown you'd expect when CCP attempts to stray from the status quo.

It's not the size that matters, it's the content. And there's not a lot of content in this thread. Just froth and tears.

Mr Epeen Cool


pretty sure reddit already has more posts than this place - reddit is the superior place for any discussion on eve anyway. more people, less stifling moderation, and a far easier way to keep track of the discussion.

edit: oh no, it has 1500 posts, 500 less than this. then again people on reddit aren't as dense and they don't have to be told something more than once to understand it.
Norian Lonark
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2029 - 2015-10-16 18:07:53 UTC
I really don't like the idea.

This is shifting towards P2W and skilling / training is one of the unique aspects of EVE. IMO we should never be able to buy SPs to customize our characters. Buying a character on the Bazaar is very different to be able to pick and choose the skills.

Progression is part of an RPG isn't it? Isn't this just giving everyone what they want when they want if they are willing to pay for it, which kind of goes against the game universe we are in. What?Sad

Start wide, expand further, and never look back
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2030 - 2015-10-16 18:08:39 UTC
Okay, so after exchanging some e-mails with a few people whose views on the forums I respect one question was asked of me, since I’m not against this idea, “What does this fix?” I thought that was a good question, so I went back to the Dev Blog and read it again. The answer appears to be, well…nothing. It is an outgrowth of making improvements to the character bazaar. But…the character bazaar is it broken? Based on the dev blog the worst thing about, and I’m not sure this is necessarily bad, is that not every player may be aware of it.

And I have admitted that this new proposal does have some risk, all changes to the game come with some risk of going off the rails. Depending on the pricing of these new items we could be flooded with SP on the market…or there could be very little or even none. A flood of SP on the market could be bad, even if temporary.

So, seeing how this does not appear to really fix anything and that there is some degree of risk. Nope, probably not a good idea. Adding granularity to the character bazaar—i.e. letting skill levels be extracted may be a good thing—an improvement to the game vs. fixing something that is not working. But the current proposal is too open ended.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Maekchu
Doomheim
#2031 - 2015-10-16 18:10:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Maekchu
BlackWilk wrote:

- I have always loved eve over other MMO's because of the lack of pay2win aspect

What?

PLEX is literally a P2W mechanic. It is just one of the more tolerable ones, like XP boosting, which the proposed mechanic would be.

EvE has always been P2W, when you can PLEX and legitimately buy characters. And honestly, it is really not that bad, when EvE has a mechanic that forces you to wait several months in order to get into something specific. I don't mind other people getting boosted, since it does not really affect my gameplay.

The P2W, that I hope CCP will never get into. Is selling OP modules and ships for real cash. That is true P2W and that is something that would break the game.
Hawk Aldaris
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#2032 - 2015-10-16 18:10:27 UTC
I see the good intentions here but I also see the exploitation and Pay to Win model happening. For those of you that claim its not pay to win....explain to me pay to win then. If I can buy plex with money, then transfer plex to isk/AU, then buy skill packets with isk/AU that is pay to win......

I hope this is truly not going to happen. Ive been having fun with this game and progression since day one. I take my summer breaks and stay subbed, come back to EvE and have so much fun with my new toys. Develop my personal skills and continue to grind my points. There is nothing wrong with this games progression and it does not need to be destroyed by buying SP.

If we could do a yearly skill extraction or something with a very long timer, then avoid being able to put the packets on the market and restrict them to account only use that would be one thing. This would help characters get rid of those half trained skills they may never use and put their SP they already paid for to good use.

CCP please dont turn this game into a subscribe now and "Get your free lvl 90!" style game...... its heading that direction quick.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#2033 - 2015-10-16 18:10:28 UTC
The dev blog starts out talking about shortcomings of the character bazaar due to no name changes. Why don't you just fix that problem?

"As you can see, this design favors skill transfers for younger characters and makes them very inefficient for older characters. We’ve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character."

I am not sure of the logic here. It just seems like you are sticking it to loyal customers. (why do vets get bitter?) The prestige of an older player has little to do with how many skillpoints they have since you normally only train one character per account.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#2034 - 2015-10-16 18:11:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Sibyyl wrote:

Laodell wrote:
Not trying to belittle you in any way here, but here's a very relevant truth:

You haven't spent the time to grow a character for the years the older players have, to be able to appreciate the audacity of your statement. You cannot be asked to hold a valid opinion on a topic you have no frame of reference to understand.


Laodell wrote:
Because you can't wish consequences away. Who you are, in game or out, is a reflection of the choices you or the previous owner made. That's part of the consequences, or balance if I may, of buying SP though the purchase of a new toon.


Moac Tor wrote:
If you want a game with no consequences then why are you playing Eve?


This is exactly why the change is good. "Consequences" for skill choices is not interesting gameplay. In fact, training skills isn't gameplay at all.

I understand you have emotional and philosophical objections against the change but nowhere in your arguments do I see how this change will negative affect gameplay or subscriptions.

It is not just a philosophical objection that the players have, the whole concept of eve has always been based around actions having consequences. That is what makes the gameplay interesting and stand out from other more generic MMORPGs. That is why I was asking why are you playing Eve.

Anyway this idea will clearly have to be scrapped after this threadnought of negative feedback. I am glad to see that even though the Devs in team size matters clearly have a poor understanding of some of the core concepts and philosophies behind eve then at least the players do not. I am actually interested to know if this idea was shown to Seagull and other devs as I would be surprised if this would have been let through into a devblog if it had.
Dave stark
#2035 - 2015-10-16 18:12:17 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
But…the character bazaar is it broken?


no.

however, would i use it? also no.
would i use the new system? probably yes.

why?
because the character bazzar seems awkward and clunky to me. in short.
so, maybe it is broken if the way it operates is putting people off?

while the bazaar itself isn't broken - it's a long, long way from being user friendly.
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#2036 - 2015-10-16 18:12:46 UTC  |  Edited by: beakerax
Mr Epeen wrote:
The majority of posts are by around ten people having the typical forum meltdown you'd expect when CCP attempts to stray from the status quo.

Actually, of the ten most prolific posters in this thread, only two are clearly against the change. Six are clearly in favour.

e: make that five now, I guess
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2037 - 2015-10-16 18:17:31 UTC

Ima, I honestly think the PLEX argument is runaway speculation not backed by any sort of hard analysis.



Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Since the first resource is very limited we will end up in a situation where the main source of SP are the SP farm alts. This alts basically consume a PLEX and produce SP to sell on the market.
...
Since the SP creation is coupled to PLEX this will scale no matter how expensive the PLEX gets.

SP creation is already coupled to PLEX. PLEX is gametime, which is SP.



Quote:
This will radically increase the PLEX price, since there will be a big demand for SP and they will be created from PLEX. So a lot of players who can not afford the game with RL $ will basically be replaced with some farm alt which consumes the PLEX instead. Because the ISK price will just be to damn high for most of the players who not sell the created SP

There is no infinite (price blind) demand for anything. Character Bazaar has stablized price points, so it stands to reason that bundles of SP will also have stabilized price points.



Quote:
This will benefit players with a lot of ISK or players with a really really big RL wallet.

This is not really an argument on its own. Everything benefits those with deep pockets. There are plenty of existing game mechanics (multiple characters, Character Bazaar, shinier ships) that favor older, richer players.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#2038 - 2015-10-16 18:17:48 UTC
I have removed some more trolling/offensive/off-topic/ranting-like replies and those quoting them.

Quote:
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.

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A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.

4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.

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Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

ISD Decoy

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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#2039 - 2015-10-16 18:20:12 UTC
beakerax wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
The majority of posts are by around ten people having the typical forum meltdown you'd expect when CCP attempts to stray from the status quo.

Actually, of the ten most prolific posters in this thread, only two are clearly against the change. Six are clearly in favour.

e: make that five now, I guess
So Gregor is now twice wrong in that tiny little post.

Anyone want to find strike three so we can petition to get him out of the game?

Mr Epeen Cool
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#2040 - 2015-10-16 18:20:49 UTC
This is dread, man. Truly, dread.

The Tears Must Flow