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[December] Balance Smorgasbord

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Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2015-10-16 17:36:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Punisher:
Let's talk about the Punisher.
Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow.
We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways.
These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high.
  • +1 Turret
  • +1 Lowslot
  • +10 PWG
  • +13 CPU
  • Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level




    • What? this is the opposite of what everyone wanted. The punisher is slow as crap, unagile and cannot web anything. Because it can't web it can't keep up even with merlins purely because of WEBS. 2 mid slots is abhorrent. The punisher needs the webifier to compete with the other brawlers. giving it a 5th lowslot doesn't do anything but allow me to fit some non-utility mod like a nanofiber or overdrive. The 10% cap usage bonus again? its a crutch bonus because lasers just gobble cap meanwhile you now have 3 frigates with the SAME cap usage bonus and no other 2nd combat bonus like every other ship in the game gets. Unsurprisingly the Tormentor and Executioner have the SAME ship bonuses, the only two ships in the game to have such an unoriginal set up.



    2 mids is fine, not every ship needs to be a competitive 1v1 brawler.

    2 mids is not fine, midslots are utility slots. Its the main reason why a lot of amarr ships get sidelined for ships with more midslots purely because mids means utility. Without the webifier the punisher cannot catch anything and it forces it to fit extremely generic and predictable fits. Fighting another AB frigate and you have nothing to counter with because the punisher is slow enough that an enemy can disengage extremely easily. I fully imagine that nothing will change and the only thing I'm gonna use this 5th lowslot for is an overdrive or nanofiber because it can't do anything. I hate the punisher to such an extent because of this absolutely garbage slot set up, I flew this thing in fall 2013 as apart of faction war and just because of how slow it is coupled with 2 mids is shooting itself in both its feet.
    Harvey James
    The Sengoku Legacy
    #22 - 2015-10-16 17:37:00 UTC
    hookbill change is good, but you still haven't looked at its other problems, it has so many mids but CPU is too little too use the mids without loads of cpu rigs or using lows for cpu etc,,, unless you have plans too make the passive shield resists use hardly any cpu like the adaptive resistance plating for armour frigs get..

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #23 - 2015-10-16 17:39:03 UTC
    Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:

    2 mids is not fine, midslots are utility slots. Its the main reason why a lot of amarr ships get sidelined for ships with more midslots purely because mids means utility. Without the webifier the punisher cannot catch anything and it forces it to fit extremely generic and predictable fits. Fighting another AB frigate and you have nothing to counter with because the punisher is slow enough that an enemy can disengage extremely easily. I fully imagine that nothing will change and the only thing I'm gonna use this 5th lowslot for is an overdrive or nanofiber because it can't do anything.


    having no midslots is how amarr works. if it's not good, they should change it so it is good, preferably by nerfing webs.

    and again you're talking about 1v1s, what about gangs? it would be pretty good if its damage wasn't so bad.
    Gorski Car
    #24 - 2015-10-16 17:40:25 UTC
    The Barghest will be op as **** after this

    Collect this post
    Alekseyev Karrde
    Noir.
    Shadow Cartel
    #25 - 2015-10-16 17:40:29 UTC
    The Navy Drake and Muninn cry out in the darkness. Comfort them!

    Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
    Hashtag Rare Pepe
    Doomheim
    #26 - 2015-10-16 17:43:30 UTC
    I hope the skill packs will be available when these nerfs come so I can switch from a Gila to an Ishtar to afk rat
    FT Diomedes
    The Graduates
    #27 - 2015-10-16 17:43:48 UTC
    Good set of adjustments there. At first glance, none of them looks too overpowering.

    CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

    Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #28 - 2015-10-16 17:43:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:

    2 mids is not fine, midslots are utility slots. Its the main reason why a lot of amarr ships get sidelined for ships with more midslots purely because mids means utility. Without the webifier the punisher cannot catch anything and it forces it to fit extremely generic and predictable fits. Fighting another AB frigate and you have nothing to counter with because the punisher is slow enough that an enemy can disengage extremely easily. I fully imagine that nothing will change and the only thing I'm gonna use this 5th lowslot for is an overdrive or nanofiber because it can't do anything.


    having no midslots is how amarr works. if it's not good, they should change it so it is good, preferably by nerfing webs.

    and again you're talking about 1v1s, what about gangs? it would be pretty good if its damage wasn't so bad.

    Nerfing webs does not incentivize people to use garbage slow ships.

    I almost always prefer a thorax over an omen purely because the thorax has 4 mid slots that I can put a web or literally any other utility into. It is because of the mid slots that gives ship's their function and versatility. You're going to find the same old same old generic AB punishers with Scramblers or that botched MWD punisher with a disruptor that gets gunned down by ships purely faster than it. Thanks CCP for opening up my empty can of fitting diversity. with its new 4th gun and slight increase in PG and CPU, most of that fitting is going towards the new gun, not fitting anything worth while. I might be able to squeeze some low meta level tracking enhancer into there but what does just a few percent do on small weapon systems? not a lot.

    EDIT:

    the only thing I see the punisher might be useful for is fitting beams and having really high alpha but I can't justify such a limited set up.
    Luanda Hunter
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #29 - 2015-10-16 17:46:14 UTC
    I just wonder what will be the role of gilas after this nerf. if they lose their passive ability, they wont just be equaled to the others but will be made completely obsolete imo
    Maekchu
    Doomheim
    #30 - 2015-10-16 17:51:36 UTC
    Buffs to the Rifter. Nice :D
    Scatim Helicon
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #31 - 2015-10-16 17:53:16 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:

    Rifter and Slasher:
    Rifter and Slasher are getting a moderate fittings buff to help artillery fits and to make it easier to use the utility highs.
  • Rifter: +5 CPU, +3 PWG
    • Great, maybe now it will be better able to compete with the vastly superior slas....
    Quote:
  • Slasher: +5 CPU, +2 PWG
    • ...welp.
    Quote:
    Punisher:
    ...
    These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high.[/i]
  • +1 Turret
  • +1 Lowslot
  • +10 PWG
  • +13 CPU
  • Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level
    • I'm not a fan of breaking the rules without good reason, and an extra slot for the Punisher over all other T1 frigs feels like a step too far. Also I'm not a fan of increasing the turrets whilst removing the damage bonus since that pushes us back towards the days of using off-racial guns for the poor thing - this is an instant candidate for some max armour tank and 125mm autocannon abomination. On the other hand, 5 lows is very welcome. How about:

    * -1 highslot, +1 lowslot
    * improved baseline capacitor capacity and/or recharge rate
    * increase small energy turret damage per level from 5% to 7.5% or 10%

    Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
    Harvey James
    The Sengoku Legacy
    #32 - 2015-10-16 17:54:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
    so with gila and worm losing a lowslot effectively a DDA they still at best lose 10% damage off drone dps, they still have plenty of dps, tank and projection, the gila in particular will still out dps the drake and ferox, i think really all the gurista ships should lose the 2 OP drones thing for a normalised 5 drones less dps setup with the bonuses sorted out properly and even then they could still afford too lose a launcher before there dps is at a more respectable level and then ,maybe then they won't stomp on other missile/drone brawlers.

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
    Genghis Tron
    Doomheim
    #33 - 2015-10-16 17:55:46 UTC
    Why are you guys buffing the Tormentor? Saying that it's underused is kind of telling.. It really is good the way it is.

    BOOM SHAKALAKA
    Phoenix Jones
    Small-Arms Fire
    #34 - 2015-10-16 17:56:12 UTC
    The punisher should really be the Amarr frigate rocket boat.

    Probably the only bad I see in this. Rest is fine.

    Yaay!!!!
    afkalt
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #35 - 2015-10-16 17:56:53 UTC
    That worm nerf is utterly savage.
    Jaime Wulfe
    30O.
    Fraternity.
    #36 - 2015-10-16 17:58:00 UTC
    Can we get those together with SP for $? I dont wanna wait some days to be able to fly it.
    Harvey James
    The Sengoku Legacy
    #37 - 2015-10-16 17:58:43 UTC
    afkalt wrote:
    That worm nerf is utterly savage.


    a whole 30-40 dps loss off a good 350dps or so is hardly savage is it?.. have you seeen the dps on other frigs compared and that doesn't even mention how strong their tank is and the projection of drones+rockets

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
    Luanda Hunter
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #38 - 2015-10-16 18:03:54 UTC
    Harvey James wrote:
    so with gila and worm losing a lowslot effectively a DDA they still at best lose 10% damage off drone dps, they still have plenty of dps, tank and projection, the gila in particular will still out dps the drake and ferox, i think really all the gurista ships should lose the 2 OP drones thing for a normalised 5 drones less dps setup with the bonuses sorted out properly and even then they could still afford too lose a launcher before there dps is at a more respectable level and then ,maybe then they won't stomp on other missile/drone brawlers.


    yes, that's why its an expensive faction ship and not a 50 mill standard bc. the question is, what will be its role after the nerf. nothing?
    afkalt
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #39 - 2015-10-16 18:04:24 UTC
    I too use overheated rage and augmented drones ALL the time......

    I know you hate drone boats, but your bias is daft.

    The CPU cut alone would have been a big hit.
    Hendrink Collie
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #40 - 2015-10-16 18:04:36 UTC
    Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:

    2 mids is not fine, midslots are utility slots. Its the main reason why a lot of amarr ships get sidelined for ships with more midslots purely because mids means utility. Without the webifier the punisher cannot catch anything and it forces it to fit extremely generic and predictable fits. Fighting another AB frigate and you have nothing to counter with because the punisher is slow enough that an enemy can disengage extremely easily. I fully imagine that nothing will change and the only thing I'm gonna use this 5th lowslot for is an overdrive or nanofiber because it can't do anything.


    having no midslots is how amarr works. if it's not good, they should change it so it is good, preferably by nerfing webs.

    and again you're talking about 1v1s, what about gangs? it would be pretty good if its damage wasn't so bad.

    Nerfing webs does not incentivize people to use garbage slow ships.

    I almost always prefer a thorax over an omen purely because the thorax has 4 mid slots that I can put a web or literally any other utility into. It is because of the mid slots that gives ship's their function and versatility. You're going to find the same old same old generic AB punishers with Scramblers or that botched MWD punisher with a disruptor that gets gunned down by ships purely faster than it. Thanks CCP for opening up my empty can of fitting diversity. with its new 4th gun and slight increase in PG and CPU, most of that fitting is going towards the new gun, not fitting anything worth while. I might be able to squeeze some low meta level tracking enhancer into there but what does just a few percent do on small weapon systems? not a lot.

    EDIT:

    the only thing I see the punisher might be useful for is fitting beams and having really high alpha but I can't justify such a limited set up.


    Could be a powerful niche if used in cheap, mid-scale frigate fleets though... ala harpy?