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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1961 - 2015-10-16 16:38:41 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
It will obviously be doable, only question is if anyone wants to be #1 that badly.

I have already explained the importance of consistency in relations to your customers. Find a post and read it. Try to comprehend as well please :)


yes - so what issue will there be when some one does do it?

what problem will that cause?


Beside making CCP statement void I am sure it will create unrest among players. As not having consistency and not beaing able to lean on something you planned to commit in a long term is not going to work. Meaning losing more players, meaning dead eve.

But oh, i already wrote about this like 50 pages ago and mentioned it like 10 times after it again, seems you are really failing on both reading & comprehension :/


the very nature of the system ensures that pestige is maintained. only a limited number of people can have that "super high sp" like 300 or 400m sp. we're not creating sp out of thin air.

there's still going to be prestige associated with long standing accounts - remember fanfest? 4 guys who hadn't unsubbed once since the release being given nvidia titan graphics cards?

a lot of **** ccp has said has turned to dust - and the game's still going.


It is not maintained. If you drop from #1 to #2, you lost everything you did for years. Even if only one person gets above you, you lose your #1 spot. There is still going to be prestige for top100 accounts but all those who lose their positions in top10 are going to be quite pissed off.

And if Dr Caymus quits because of this, I will be first to follow him to show my support. And I do hope other top players will join as well to send "thanks for screwing us" message to CCP.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Dave Stark
#1962 - 2015-10-16 16:40:20 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
they are obviously as they are stating something which can be bypassed.

You might not think there is a prestige there, as Dr Caymus what he thinks and why did he put efforts to be top 1 all these years? And you cannot find such characters on bazaar.

You cannot buy more sp. I have 244mil and I cannot buy sp to become top 1. Until the new game mechanics change.

If i needed i could buy more different chars for different roles but I cannot increase SP on my main.


why did he put the effort in? probably the same reason roger next door collects stamps.

not being able to buy #1 spot on the sp leaderboard isn't going to break the game. it's not going to cause everyone to quit, it's not going to cause the servers to die.

no, but you can change who your main is. you're free to change it to one with more SP if you can afford it. - not that it matters, there's no situation where you can't buy a pilot that can do whatever you need a new pilot/more sp for, anyway.


Because the game seemed to be consistent. So it looked like it was worth putting in effort. By changing that, CCP sends a message to the player base that when it comes to money there is no consistency. It`s all about the benjamins babe. Problem is that they can only see short term yield of money and fail to foresee what will happen in the long run.

Not everyone will quit because of it, it is not going to break a game imediatelly but it will surely make some people quit immediately and others to drop long term plans for the game as they cannot lean on it. So, yes more and more people will quit, causing less and less money for ccp and in the end the servers are going to die...


i'm going to stun you. i'm going to agree with you.

stay with me here; what happens when you melt down your alts in to plex packages and inject them all in to your main? oh right. you don't need those 30 accounts any more, better unsub them. that's 30 subscriptions they've just lost.

i don't need a carrier alt, a dread alt, etc - i can have it all on one character now. one account. one subscription.

then again, i'm sure some one at ccp has weighed up lost alts vs microtransaction revenue and gone "**** alts".


face it, the whole industry is shifting to micro transactions. there are a very small handful of games left operating the old "subscription model" style game - is it time we just moved on and accepted micro transactions are the way eve funds itself?
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#1963 - 2015-10-16 16:41:35 UTC
CCP Logibro wrote:

The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside.


Please also read this reminder on our forum rules ~ ISD Decoy


What if you changed the idea a bit:
Extractor -500,000 SP from a character.
Packet - Queue boosted by +50,000 SP/Hour for 10 hours (before diminishing returns). They have booster packs for new characters already, this could use a similar mechanic. The diminishing return idea could be kept or not as the SP/hr gain is capped.

Allow stacking but it only increases duration not SP/hr, So a character would gain a max bonus of 1,200,000 SP per day if they used multiple packets. Of course all numbers are examples and could be tweaked any direction.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#1964 - 2015-10-16 16:42:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Niko Lorenzio
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
they are obviously as they are stating something which can be bypassed.

You might not think there is a prestige there, as Dr Caymus what he thinks and why did he put efforts to be top 1 all these years? And you cannot find such characters on bazaar.

You cannot buy more sp. I have 244mil and I cannot buy sp to become top 1. Until the new game mechanics change.

If i needed i could buy more different chars for different roles but I cannot increase SP on my main.


why did he put the effort in? probably the same reason roger next door collects stamps.

not being able to buy #1 spot on the sp leaderboard isn't going to break the game. it's not going to cause everyone to quit, it's not going to cause the servers to die.

no, but you can change who your main is. you're free to change it to one with more SP if you can afford it. - not that it matters, there's no situation where you can't buy a pilot that can do whatever you need a new pilot/more sp for, anyway.


Because the game seemed to be consistent. So it looked like it was worth putting in effort. By changing that, CCP sends a message to the player base that when it comes to money there is no consistency. It`s all about the benjamins babe. Problem is that they can only see short term yield of money and fail to foresee what will happen in the long run.

Not everyone will quit because of it, it is not going to break a game imediatelly but it will surely make some people quit immediately and others to drop long term plans for the game as they cannot lean on it. So, yes more and more people will quit, causing less and less money for ccp and in the end the servers are going to die...



I always said that if events surrounding Incarna were stretched out over many months and expansions they probably would not culminate in Jita Riots. I think the effect would be the same though. Slow and gradual disenchantment with the game and gradual decline. I think this is what has been happening for a few years now.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
Dave Stark
#1965 - 2015-10-16 16:43:16 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
It is not maintained. If you drop from #1 to #2, you lost everything you did for years. Even if only one person gets above you, you lose your #1 spot. There is still going to be prestige for top100 accounts but all those who lose their positions in top10 are going to be quite pissed off.

And if Dr Caymus quits because of this, I will be first to follow him to show my support. And I do hope other top players will join as well to send "thanks for screwing us" message to CCP.


what you did for years? all you did for the last 12 or so years was have a positive bank balance when the direct debit went out of your account.

being #1 just means you were the first person to make an account of the remaining subscribers. not being funny but that's not exactly something that really means anything.

frankly, the first person to buy their way to every skill at rank V probably means more because it means they're good at making isk in game, or they're good at making dollars and cents in real life. either of those are worth more than "i made an account before you did, nar nar na nar nar".

*shrug*
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#1966 - 2015-10-16 16:45:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Fourteen Maken
Pic'n dor wrote:
The only point missing is the price of the SP extractor.
On the other hand, let's try to put a market price on a SP Pack.

My hypothesis :
500k SP in fully in full remap/implant setup is reach within a 7/8 days.
We can speculate that skill trainign to extract them gonna be a carreer path.
So a packet is 1/4 of a plex time.
At current price : this would get into the 300M isk


So from 350k SP to 5M, you need 9 packs >(or 9 weeks of training) which would be 2.7B isk
That means a new player have to make 50M per week in the 4 or 5 first week of EVE
ohhh but wait :
Quote:
Trial characters may not consume Skill Packets


That means in the first 3 weeks of eve, you can't inject !! that means you are able to consume them for around 6 weeks only to get full 500k !

If you are able to get 300M per week (which is not possible for new players whatever game carreer you take), well, you will only take 3 packs :
3 weeks of trial, +1 pack per week + self training per week : at week 7 you reach 5M SP

So now is my question :

- How is this feature good for new players since market price hypothesis is not compatible with new players
- Is it intended to allow wealthy average SP player to fine tune their skills to take over new players ?
- How do you expect new players to get to know this feature when they already have 1 billion thing to get used to when you start this game ? (Some vets still don't understand dominion sov and far more are lost with fozziesov) ( i won't speak of rules of engagement in highsec)
- Why would a 5M+ SP player would pay for 400k SP which would be 6 days of training when he can save the same amount of money to allow him to play for 7/8 days ?
- Why would we give the SuperCaps pilote a career path to make money when the already have reach suffcient wealth to get into the finest ships of the game with the right amount of skills ?

We should focus and get the NPE at top level and allow new comers to feel they are part of something bigger.




300mil is the TOP price based on plex values, it cannot go higher, but it can go much lower. The top price would be assuming all characters selling SP were doing nothing else of any value just farming SP... but in most cases this will be used to sell excess SP from indy toons, already maxed toons, station trading toons, PI toons etc and the acceptable price will be much much lower especially at the start when everyone starts liquidating their unwanted skills.
Laodell
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#1967 - 2015-10-16 16:45:27 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:



I always said that if events surrounding Incarna were stretched out over many months and expansions they probably would not culminate in Jita Riots. I think the effect would be the same though. Slow and gradual disenchantment with the game and
gradual decline. I think this is what has been happening for a few years now.



Proof of your statement can be seen in the drop of activity in the recruitment channels over the years. It used to scroll by faster than you could read it. Now, it barely moves.
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#1968 - 2015-10-16 16:46:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Xelitras
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Reading comments and thinking about benefits and issues, I changed my mind from "interesting proposal" to "omg, it's a minefield".

Please add your pros and cons to the list below:


pros:

  • pilots can get rid of unwanted skills (less important than it was when we had to pay for gradually more expensive medical clone updates)
  • reduces boring waiting periods for long skill plans
  • boost to new players ability to get into T2 ships as often required by PvP groups
  • players having been unsubbed for a while can buy back training time (with the risk of unsubbing, because keeping up training is not a strict requirement anymore. Resubbing is less likely than getting back on an already subbed account) [post #1901 by RavenPaine]


cons:

  • T3 pilots being able to immediately replace SP lost when their ship explodes changes the way T3 was designed to affect pilots.
  • Newbs could skip entire parts of the game and learning experience to jump to a percieved end-game with possible disappointment. (losing the "looking foward to fly x" and replacing it by "... started playing last week, bought a Dread and it sucks, I quit")
  • Rich alliances could bolster their ranks with higher SP pilots by simply buying them SP packs.
  • Possible meta / exploits: farming SP with PLEXed alts to sell SP. (with likely PLEX price increase at a disadvantage to new players facing sub-subscription based game with P2W mechanics) [Ima Wreckyou] post #1952
  • a part from PLEX and character Bazar allowing new players to circumvent character progression, new players would immediately face unequal starting conditions as opposed to the level playing field it is now [Laodell] post #1958

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1969 - 2015-10-16 16:46:54 UTC
Seems to me like its a glossed over way of pay2win again like alot are doing of late, i packed in wow with there instaboost 90's.

If they introduced this BS why dont they save themselves a whole lot of coding and just say 1plex or equivalent aur for 1 mill sp's .... way easier and they'll be getting folks reaching for there CC's.

Another game gone down the shitter if this happens.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Pic'n dor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1970 - 2015-10-16 16:47:04 UTC
This features will also have negative effect on plex market :

Every vet got a full ton of unused alt (mining or whatever) with cool names they don't want to sell.
They gonna convert SP pool in alts into game time with plex for their mains.

COUCOU TOUCHE TOUCHE
Starbuck05
Abiding Ormolus
#1971 - 2015-10-16 16:47:40 UTC
This is a bad ideea because you know it will get abused...

Players should not have the ability to instantly train certain skills at cost no matter how sweet the deal is..most of us had and keep having to w8 real time to train for what we want and imo its half the fun of the game getting there with patiance & EXPERIENCE ...


Sure if the rich guys want a shortcut they can buy toons already trained for specific stuff bu then as its been pointed out you get the drawbacks of that toon.


The system works as it is...why change it ?

Just because i am blond does not make me stoopid !
Bradstone
Caldari Advanced War Technologies
#1972 - 2015-10-16 16:48:52 UTC
Bad bad bad idea. -10
Killua Zoldyck
Iskursions
#1973 - 2015-10-16 16:50:08 UTC
I have already posted my agreement to this Idea once but I would like to go into some detail as to why I think so. Eve in and of itself is universe always evolving and adapting to the changes happening within it, the basis behind this in lore is that in the game we are all humans fighting a never ceasing war so as time goes on and intelligence is gathered we make leaps in innovation to accommodate. I.e. developer patches.

The ability to essentially rearrange our neural pathways in a universe where it is already common as day and night to have your consciousness stripped from one body and placed in the next seems to me a natural progression of events. We as humans in this world are constantly studying ways to improve ourselves and the way we do things, why should the humans in Eve be any different?

By asking for stagnation in the area of capsuler science you are basically saying that the human race was smart enough to get this far but unable to improve beyond. We need ideas such as this accompanied with change in game, it not only adds to the experience of the individual player but Eve as a whole. I would even like to see the future updates move in such a way as to show the innovative industrial spirit that is inherent in the human race as I'm sure it has not diminished in New Eden. Such as more a more detailed focus of the going ons of the NPC world of Eve, true wars going on that players can hop into a system and watch or specific advances in tech countering a New Eden.

The thought of everything that happened in Eve came from Eve is what brought me to this game and I would love to see more of it, essentially making everything even the Dev patches part of lore. The immersive experience I craved and found here in New Eden I only want to see grow and prosper. I've come to love this game in the time I've been here and plan to keep playing for years to come whatever road you end up taking Devs so this lone player will end this with a thank you for all the work and crap you put up with.
Dave Stark
#1974 - 2015-10-16 16:50:12 UTC
Starbuck05 wrote:
Players should not have the ability to instantly train certain skills at cost no matter how sweet the deal is



but, there is a cost... the cost of training the sp, the cost of extracting the sp, the sp lost due to diminishing returns etc.

there's a whole host of costs in lieu of "having a character name you hate and a potentially tainted history".
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1975 - 2015-10-16 16:50:57 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


i'm going to stun you. i'm going to agree with you.

stay with me here; what happens when you melt down your alts in to plex packages and inject them all in to your main? oh right. you don't need those 30 accounts any more, better unsub them. that's 30 subscriptions they've just lost.

i don't need a carrier alt, a dread alt, etc - i can have it all on one character now. one account. one subscription.

then again, i'm sure some one at ccp has weighed up lost alts vs microtransaction revenue and gone "**** alts".


face it, the whole industry is shifting to micro transactions. there are a very small handful of games left operating the old "subscription model" style game - is it time we just moved on and accepted micro transactions are the way eve funds itself?


Stunned :D

That is the part I am worried about and why I am speaking here. It seems to me that they have not run proper analytic approach nor that they have considered all side effects as this is very bad decision in the long run.

I do not think EVE will not work well with so much focus in micro transaction. Either they should find some new unique (eve-like) way of those micro transactions or they should have find other ways to keep the player base and make the game "healthy" again. Since this as the first (newer) step toward that is not going to be successful while it will create tectonic changes to players mindsets.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
shaun 27
Brothers of Tyr
Goonswarm Federation
#1976 - 2015-10-16 16:51:01 UTC
In 9 years playing eve this is certainly a new low for ccp if they introduce this type of system. Either their under serious pressure from investors which it clearly looks like it or their having another walking in stations moment.

As far as im concerned you already messed up industry, i got over 30mil sp their and now i can build stuff quicker wooooohoooo but theirs already an oversupply. so those advanced skills you used to have, you know the advanced small ship construction which allowed you to build assult frigates and the likes, which i spent time training to lvl 5 is not worth it any more completely pointless. All that sp i could have put into training other races but no i stuck with 1 thing.

Seriously i knew when they released ship skins were be having stuff like this. Next it will be t3 ammo 1 plex you get 50000000 worth and it does 400% Bouses to damage.

Pay to win.
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#1977 - 2015-10-16 16:51:36 UTC
This is a terrible idea, but kudos to Rise for having the nerve to post it Cool
Truckstop Hooker
Doomheim
#1978 - 2015-10-16 16:52:08 UTC
A lot of people say "skill > SP" and I'm sure most of the same people who say that are complaining about the proposal. Hilarious.

What's the big fear anyway? Some guy who has never played EVE before is going to spend $1000 to buy plexes, put them on the market, use the money to buy SP, and then subsequently die in an officer fit vindicator in Jita because he has a lot SP and no skills?

Another complaint is "it will become pay to win!". Isn't that what EVE already is? Buy high SP character from character bazaar, have friends buy high SP character from character bazaar, buy expensive flashy ships with deadspace mods, then gank low SP player in garbage ship. (value of characters based on SP + skills + implants > low SP character + no skills + no implants + bad fit).

Another pay to win example: OGB - buy another account to use OGB, win almost all engagements where the other guy doesn't have OGB.

Etc.
Emila Airhart
Physics Says No
Brotherhood of Spacers
#1979 - 2015-10-16 16:52:22 UTC
can you wait on killing eve for me as a player, till after star citizen comes out (even that has a better outlook and its vaporware) till it suddenly appears, this is something i will use my wallet to vote with if this is implemented,

Once you start shortcutting learning curve, you are rendering learning curve useless. From that, there is no way back, because once you have enough people without having passed by the fire, you will never. exploring-the-character-bazaar-skill-tradin
Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1980 - 2015-10-16 16:53:54 UTC


Things its supposed to help with:

"New players wanting to get a quick boost to catch up to older players"

-never going to happen. after about 6 months, these will never be seen on the market place. Like meta 16 stuff, buy orders for these will be placed with such high value, any that are made by farm alts, will never see the light of day on the actual face of the market. not for 1 plex, or 50 plex worth of isk.

"players wanting to shuffle around sp mistakes made back in the day."

Yes. This will help for that. And be awesome. I myself would like to suck out some stupid SP dumping decisions and make up for some of that lost potential.

"break down the SP cliff that new players perceive is a difficulty wall in eve"

No way. New players will look at these and say '**** it', and just give up. I can't compete with older players who have the sp, and i can't buy sp, because i can't afford it, because prices are set by end game players who have the sp to set the price. The golden ticket into the big boys club is years away, or literally thousands of dollars away.

Make these account bound. Only able to be moved through the redeem system. Restrict them out of all ships in eve. Restrict them out of cargo containers, trade windows.... etc.

Allow players to pay for 1x, 2x, or 3x training. (multichar training for slots 2 and 3) and allow players to purchase sp shuffling within their own account. This solves all your issues that need solving without breaking anything that isn't already broken.

CCP gets money, players get fidelity over their sp/month purchases. Everybody wins.