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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#1941 - 2015-10-16 16:19:26 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Reading comments and thinking about benefits and issues, I changed my mind from "interesting proposal" to "omg, it's a minefield".

Please add your pros and cons to the list below:


pros:

  • pilots can get rid of unwanted skills (less important than it was when we had to pay for gradually more expensive medical clone updates)
  • reduces boring waiting periods for long skill plans
  • boost to new players ability to get into T2 ships as often required by PvP groups
  • players having been unsubbed for a while can buy back training time (with the risk of unsubbing, because keeping up training is not a strict requirement anymore. Resubbing is less likely than getting back on an already subbed account) [post #1901 by RavenPaine]


cons:

  • T3 pilots being able to immediately replace SP lost when their ship explodes changes the way T3 was designed to affect pilots.
  • Newbs could skip entire parts of the game and learning experience to jump to a percieved end-game with possible disappointment. (losing the "looking foward to fly x" and replacing it by "... started playing last week, bought a Dread and it sucks, I quit")
  • Rich alliances could bolster their ranks with higher SP pilots by simply buying them SP packs.


Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1942 - 2015-10-16 16:20:28 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


the reason for the diminishing returns is as stated; regardless of whether it achieves that end or not.



read the devblog please. It says it protects, but it does not really do it. So it is fail on their side and (oh shocker) on yours as well. For you i have no worries as i understand that you have comprehension problems, but ccp coming up with such ideas is what worries me.


doesn't matter if it achieves it or not. the reason is the same regardless of what it does or doesn't do.


It matters of course. Because if it achieves it, CCP statement is faulty and incorrect. Which makes the whole story stupid (like it is not already) . And if we cannot be sure in CCP`s consistency of their game mechanics or their statements, it wont take much time before game dies.


so what you're saying is that ccp are completely wide of the mark? you're welcome to think that. to be honest.

i don't think there's any prestige associated with owning a character for a long period of time - because of the character bazzar. anyone who wants one can have one, type of thing.

similarly there's nothing special about "having lots of sp" - because if you want lots of sp you can just go and buy it, all this new system does is make it less hassle.


they are obviously as they are stating something which can be bypassed.

You might not think there is a prestige there, as Dr Caymus what he thinks and why did he put efforts to be top 1 all these years? And you cannot find such characters on bazaar.

You cannot buy more sp. I have 244mil and I cannot buy sp to become top 1. Until the new game mechanics change.

If i needed i could buy more different chars for different roles but I cannot increase SP on my main.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Laodell
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#1943 - 2015-10-16 16:22:20 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:


Now characters and their SP are modular. Why is that bad?



Not trying to belittle you in any way here, but here's a very relevant truth:

You haven't spent the time to grow a character for the years the older players have, to be able to appreciate the audacity of your statement. You cannot be asked to hold a valid opinion on a topic you have no frame of reference to understand.

'Why is that Bad', Ask yourself that again when you have been here 10 years.

Lets put this in another perspective. In those 10 years I have spent 1,794 for my game time. I have 114,343,548 SP in combat, exploration, commerce and industry based skills. That breaks down to about 63,736 SP per Dollar.


For less than a grand I can have a Titan pilot which I spent the last 10 years getting to. All I need is the ISK for the actual Skill book.

I could sell this toon for a LOT of cash for that. with this proposed change, it would make more monetary sense to just liquidate all that investment.

With the proposed change there's no incentive to encourage me to spend any time training for anything complex, for the reasons I and others have already stated in previous posts if you weren't so single-mindedly deliberately ignoring those valid points in favor of your own opinion on the matter.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1944 - 2015-10-16 16:22:42 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:

it doesnt really matter, the point is that it protects prestige of high sp players (no matter how you call them) and it cannot do it. But again you try to twist it out :)

Thank you for your contribution on this. Because if CCP takes opinions here in consideration you will be the most responsible person it will not be implemented :)


twist out of what?

even if there weren't diminishing returns on this system it it would still prevent the situation where everyone has a 400m sp character. not everyone has infinitely deep pockets - and there isn't an infinite amount of SP to be distributed.


It is not important at all are they high sp players or old players, both are referring to the same, yet you find a way to take it out of context and make it look like that is the whole point. Trolls used to be banned on these forums on pat, game aint going sh*t only ingame it seems :D

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1945 - 2015-10-16 16:23:29 UTC
I sense a disturbance in the force. As if a thousand lvl 3 defender missiles skills cried out, and were suddenly silenced.

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#1946 - 2015-10-16 16:24:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Ima Wreckyou
Sibyyl wrote:

CSM folks who oppose the change, or anyone else who's against it.

Can you point me to a cogent argument not using subjective buzzwords like "pay to win" why this change is bad?

Here is my list of arguments against this change:

SP source and price:

There are basically two possibilities of how SP will end up on the market:

1) vet who parts with a skill he does not use anymore and make it to ISK
2) SP farm alt

Since the first resource is very limited we will end up in a situation where the main source of SP are the SP farm alts. This alts basically consume a PLEX and produce SP to sell on the market.

With the ISK they buy PLEX again which will be transformed into SP again, for free gametime (there is another concern about this on it's own: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6102179#post6102179 ) and excess ISK. Since the SP creation is coupled to PLEX this will scale no matter how expensive the PLEX gets. No one in his right mind will sell for less than it costs to produce the SP pack.

So this will basically produce a lot of SP packs, but it will raise the PLEX price into new heights. If the PLEX price rises, so will the SP pack prices. There is no way a new player will be able to get enough ISK to get this SP. They will have to purchase a PLEX for $ to get them.

So basically the newbros will pay the gametime of the vets at a horrible price so they can catch up a little.

Appearance:

Now with this in mind think about how this will look to a new player coming from some other game.

EVE is a subscription game. He will learn that he accumulates SP at a slow rate, but he can purchase SP from the market as well.. wait, that sounds like some F2P paywall.. but it's a subscription game WTF... How do you think he will react if he actually looks up how much the SP for one simple level V skill will cost him?

Would you invest 15$ for some ingame skill you don't know how useful it actually is in a game you just started. Or will you quit the game and shake your head about why you should pay so much for a skill in a subscription game?

This will benefit players with a lot of ISK or players with a really really big RL wallet. But it will in no way help a new player. It will scare them away.

PLEX price:

This will radically increase the PLEX price, since there will be a big demand for SP and they will be created from PLEX. So a lot of players who can not afford the game with RL $ will basically be replaced with some farm alt which consumes the PLEX instead. Because the ISK price will just be to damn high for most of the players who not sell the created SP

Evil RatKid
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1947 - 2015-10-16 16:25:00 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
It will obviously be doable, only question is if anyone wants to be #1 that badly.

I have already explained the importance of consistency in relations to your customers. Find a post and read it. Try to comprehend as well please :)


yes - so what issue will there be when some one does do it?

what problem will that cause?


Beside making CCP statement void I am sure it will create unrest among players. As not having consistency and not beaing able to lean on something you planned to commit in a long term is not going to work. Meaning losing more players, meaning dead eve.

But oh, i already wrote about this like 50 pages ago and mentioned it like 10 times after it again, seems you are really failing on both reading & comprehension :/

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Dave Stark
#1948 - 2015-10-16 16:25:38 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
they are obviously as they are stating something which can be bypassed.

You might not think there is a prestige there, as Dr Caymus what he thinks and why did he put efforts to be top 1 all these years? And you cannot find such characters on bazaar.

You cannot buy more sp. I have 244mil and I cannot buy sp to become top 1. Until the new game mechanics change.

If i needed i could buy more different chars for different roles but I cannot increase SP on my main.


why did he put the effort in? probably the same reason roger next door collects stamps.

not being able to buy #1 spot on the sp leaderboard isn't going to break the game. it's not going to cause everyone to quit, it's not going to cause the servers to die.

no, but you can change who your main is. you're free to change it to one with more SP if you can afford it. - not that it matters, there's no situation where you can't buy a pilot that can do whatever you need a new pilot/more sp for, anyway.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1949 - 2015-10-16 16:27:57 UTC
Laodell wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:


Now characters and their SP are modular. Why is that bad?



Not trying to belittle you in any way here, but here's a very relevant truth:

You haven't spent the time to grow a character for the years the older players have, to be able to appreciate the audacity of your statement. You cannot be asked to hold a valid opinion on a topic you have no frame of reference to understand.

'Why is that Bad', Ask yourself that again when you have been here 10 years.

Lets put this in another perspective. In those 10 years I have spent 1,794 for my game time. I have 114,343,548 SP in combat, exploration, commerce and industry based skills. That breaks down to about 63,736 SP per Dollar.


For less than a grand I can have a Titan pilot which I spent the last 10 years getting to. All I need is the ISK for the actual Skill book.

I could sell this toon for a LOT of cash for that. with this proposed change, it would make more monetary sense to just liquidate all that investment.

With the proposed change there's no incentive to encourage me to spend any time training for anything complex, for the reasons I and others have already stated in previous posts if you weren't so single-mindedly deliberately ignoring those valid points in favor of your own opinion on the matter.


What if I tell you that you can actually read the whole topic and find plenty of solid arguments against this proposal before just dissing some comments you read. 300mil sp is just one example of altering game mechanics and the part about sp is not even the most important one.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Dave Stark
#1950 - 2015-10-16 16:28:21 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
It will obviously be doable, only question is if anyone wants to be #1 that badly.

I have already explained the importance of consistency in relations to your customers. Find a post and read it. Try to comprehend as well please :)


yes - so what issue will there be when some one does do it?

what problem will that cause?


Beside making CCP statement void I am sure it will create unrest among players. As not having consistency and not beaing able to lean on something you planned to commit in a long term is not going to work. Meaning losing more players, meaning dead eve.

But oh, i already wrote about this like 50 pages ago and mentioned it like 10 times after it again, seems you are really failing on both reading & comprehension :/


the very nature of the system ensures that pestige is maintained. only a limited number of people can have that "super high sp" like 300 or 400m sp. we're not creating sp out of thin air.

there's still going to be prestige associated with long standing accounts - remember fanfest? 4 guys who hadn't unsubbed once since the release being given nvidia titan graphics cards?

a lot of **** ccp has said has turned to dust - and the game's still going.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#1951 - 2015-10-16 16:30:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Niko Lorenzio
I'm sure someone probably already mentioned this but this is nothing short of RMT to skill up.

Basically, you get as many alts as your wallet allows. You start training them and every 5mil SP you strip their SP and inject into your main. You can basically have alt farms to win. With character bazaar or just training alts, you can gain an advantage but they're still stuck in their respective speeds, roles and skills. This is LITERALLY paying $ to accelerate skill training with no limit to it. The only limit is how much you're willing to spend to accelerate your skill training.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
Laodell
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#1952 - 2015-10-16 16:31:43 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Reading comments and thinking about benefits and issues, I changed my mind from "interesting proposal" to "omg, it's a minefield".

Please add your pros and cons to the list below:


pros:

  • pilots can get rid of unwanted skills (less important than it was when we had to pay for gradually more expensive medical clone updates)
  • reduces boring waiting periods for long skill plans
  • boost to new players ability to get into T2 ships as often required by PvP groups
  • players having been unsubbed for a while can buy back training time (with the risk of unsubbing, because keeping up training is not a strict requirement anymore. Resubbing is less likely than getting back on an already subbed account) [post #1901 by RavenPaine]


cons:

  • T3 pilots being able to immediately replace SP lost when their ship explodes changes the way T3 was designed to affect pilots.
  • Newbs could skip entire parts of the game and learning experience to jump to a percieved end-game with possible disappointment. (losing the "looking foward to fly x" and replacing it by "... started playing last week, bought a Dread and it sucks, I quit")
  • Rich alliances could bolster their ranks with higher SP pilots by simply buying them SP packs.
    • equality.





Cons:

  • Rich alliances can now hold space indefinitely.
  • When I joined Eve everyone had the same start on life. We were all equal to build our empire. Trading SP destroys that


If you are going to allow SP Trading, then make all ship losses take SP away. Then CCP can harvest even more cash, and penalize the poor even more. For some of us, 14.95 and our Internet connection is all we can afford to entertain ourselves.
Dave Stark
#1953 - 2015-10-16 16:31:55 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:

it doesnt really matter, the point is that it protects prestige of high sp players (no matter how you call them) and it cannot do it. But again you try to twist it out :)

Thank you for your contribution on this. Because if CCP takes opinions here in consideration you will be the most responsible person it will not be implemented :)


twist out of what?

even if there weren't diminishing returns on this system it it would still prevent the situation where everyone has a 400m sp character. not everyone has infinitely deep pockets - and there isn't an infinite amount of SP to be distributed.


It is not important at all are they high sp players or old players, both are referring to the same, yet you find a way to take it out of context and make it look like that is the whole point. Trolls used to be banned on these forums on pat, game aint going sh*t only ingame it seems :D


high sp, and old are not the same.

some one who made an account 10 years ago and left it unsubbed is old, but not high sp. there's a difference between the two already, before we add this mechanic.
Nixon Bum
Doomheim
#1954 - 2015-10-16 16:33:01 UTC
Sooo...... Jita riot 2.0 anyone?
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1955 - 2015-10-16 16:33:07 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
they are obviously as they are stating something which can be bypassed.

You might not think there is a prestige there, as Dr Caymus what he thinks and why did he put efforts to be top 1 all these years? And you cannot find such characters on bazaar.

You cannot buy more sp. I have 244mil and I cannot buy sp to become top 1. Until the new game mechanics change.

If i needed i could buy more different chars for different roles but I cannot increase SP on my main.


why did he put the effort in? probably the same reason roger next door collects stamps.

not being able to buy #1 spot on the sp leaderboard isn't going to break the game. it's not going to cause everyone to quit, it's not going to cause the servers to die.

no, but you can change who your main is. you're free to change it to one with more SP if you can afford it. - not that it matters, there's no situation where you can't buy a pilot that can do whatever you need a new pilot/more sp for, anyway.


Because the game seemed to be consistent. So it looked like it was worth putting in effort. By changing that, CCP sends a message to the player base that when it comes to money there is no consistency. It`s all about the benjamins babe. Problem is that they can only see short term yield of money and fail to foresee what will happen in the long run.

Not everyone will quit because of it, it is not going to break a game imediatelly but it will surely make some people quit immediately and others to drop long term plans for the game as they cannot lean on it. So, yes more and more people will quit, causing less and less money for ccp and in the end the servers are going to die...

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1956 - 2015-10-16 16:34:40 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:

it doesnt really matter, the point is that it protects prestige of high sp players (no matter how you call them) and it cannot do it. But again you try to twist it out :)

Thank you for your contribution on this. Because if CCP takes opinions here in consideration you will be the most responsible person it will not be implemented :)


twist out of what?

even if there weren't diminishing returns on this system it it would still prevent the situation where everyone has a 400m sp character. not everyone has infinitely deep pockets - and there isn't an infinite amount of SP to be distributed.


It is not important at all are they high sp players or old players, both are referring to the same, yet you find a way to take it out of context and make it look like that is the whole point. Trolls used to be banned on these forums on pat, game aint going sh*t only ingame it seems :D


high sp, and old are not the same.

some one who made an account 10 years ago and left it unsubbed is old, but not high sp. there's a difference between the two already, before we add this mechanic.


This is the essence of your posting, grabbing the least important part and discussing it like cruicial. Of course everyone understood it as high sp players. Though again with your comprehension, maybe i should really draw all the details carefully.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Dave Stark
#1957 - 2015-10-16 16:35:03 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
I'm sure someone probably already mentioned this but this is nothing short of RMT to skill up.

Basically, you get as many alts as your wallet allows. You start training them and every 5mil SP you strip their SP and inject into your main. You can basically have alt farms to win. With character bazaar or just training alts, you can gain an advantage but they're still stuck in their respective speeds, roles and skills. This is LITERALLY paying $ to accelerate skill training with no limit to it. The only limit is how much you're willing to spend to accelerate your skill training.


so, your issue is what exactly? that it's a paid service, or you can have as much sp as you want? what exactly is the grip here?

we know how the system works, there's a whole devblog telling us that.
Pic'n dor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1958 - 2015-10-16 16:35:46 UTC
The only point missing is the price of the SP extractor.
On the other hand, let's try to put a market price on a SP Pack.

My hypothesis :
500k SP in fully in full remap/implant setup is reach within a 7/8 days.
We can speculate that skill trainign to extract them gonna be a carreer path.
So a packet is 1/4 of a plex time.
At current price : this would get into the 300M isk


So from 350k SP to 5M, you need 9 packs >(or 9 weeks of training) which would be 2.7B isk
That means a new player have to make 50M per week in the 4 or 5 first week of EVE
ohhh but wait :
Quote:
Trial characters may not consume Skill Packets


That means in the first 3 weeks of eve, you can't inject !! that means you are able to consume them for around 6 weeks only to get full 500k !

If you are able to get 300M per week (which is not possible for new players whatever game carreer you take), well, you will only take 3 packs :
3 weeks of trial, +1 pack per week + self training per week : at week 7 you reach 5M SP

So now is my question :

- How is this feature good for new players since market price hypothesis is not compatible with new players
- Is it intended to allow wealthy average SP player to fine tune their skills to take over new players ?
- How do you expect new players to get to know this feature when they already have 1 billion thing to get used to when you start this game ? (Some vets still don't understand dominion sov and far more are lost with fozziesov) ( i won't speak of rules of engagement in highsec)
- Why would a 5M+ SP player would pay for 400k SP which would be 6 days of training when he can save the same amount of money to allow him to play for 7/8 days ?
- Why would we give the SuperCaps pilote a career path to make money when the already have reach suffcient wealth to get into the finest ships of the game with the right amount of skills ?

We should focus and get the NPE at top level and allow new comers to feel they are part of something bigger.


COUCOU TOUCHE TOUCHE
Astroyka
IXXAXAAR
#1959 - 2015-10-16 16:36:55 UTC
We got 99 pages and we still ain't done.

Astroyka

A New Eden pilot, fighting against slavery in New Eden

www.astroyka.net

@Astroyka
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1960 - 2015-10-16 16:37:51 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
RavenPaine wrote:
Also:
There are a percentage of the player base that don't really play any more, but they keep the account subbed so they can keep skilling.
This proposal would let them drop the subscription, because they could just buy the SP later.
At this juncture though, "later" might never happen. Most subscriptions would most likely never re-sub.

This "later" makes no sense. Why somebody need to wait for SP injenction? I think there're much more people droped the game because they lost interest while waiting.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts