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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#1921 - 2015-10-16 16:05:25 UTC


Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
It's not even remotely good for new ones - new players aren't going to be buying these packets; they wont be able to, since the price will be dictated by what some Trillionaire is willing to pay to level up his next Titan pilot instantly, or what some speculator imagines the price point will go up to
.

The price will not be dictated by what some trillionaire is willing to pay. As soon as the price goes beyond what it costs to plex a character for the month so many people will start farming SP there wouldn't be enough isk in the game to buy it all, the price will be limited by plex prices.

Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Any new player joining the game already has to decide whether to ride the game as it is or buy PLEX to soften the isk-need at the beginning. But under this system that newbie now has to buy even more PLEX to get one of these packets too, or be left behind by those that can.


How awful for them, instead of being behind 99.9% of the population of eve they'll be behind 99.901% of the population of eve. I can see you really have the newbies interests at heart here.

Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Its an issue of perspective - some posters here think having a "pay to catch up" option will lure in more players, while people like me think a "pay or fall behind" as catastrophic for luring those same new players.


I see your point, but we all know that isn't what's going on here. CCP are not selling skills, they're letting players sell their skills and I think as long as that's clear it shouldn't be seen in a negative way
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#1922 - 2015-10-16 16:05:56 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
For people quitting in protest I remind them that Operation Magic School Bus does accept donations to help out the new players. Yes, this is a 'can I haz' post but it is one where the material will be put to good use, not just lining a wallet or hanger. Contract to me if you wish to donate.

m


People threaten to rage over everything these days. I don't see a reason to over this devblog as it is put out as a proposal to gather feedback and start a dialogue. People should always welcome such things.

I can understand some people's frustrations though as they associate every word that comes out from any employee of CCP as the company's policy. I'm not privy to their inner workings but I suspect they have many independent offices, teams and devs. Many of them seem to be misaligned and have different ideas about EVE.

If I thought that CCP as a compnay was seriously pushing for this idea I would be very worried. Everyone has their limit and there are some lines that should not be crossed.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
Dave Stark
#1923 - 2015-10-16 16:07:38 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
And again avoiding, my point owning 300mil sp (300mils is just example, can be 290 or 400)character proves exactly that game mechanics are altered. The thing you are failing to counter argument for last 30 spam posts you made :D

I am starting to feel like i am arguing a person with special needs and while it is quite easy to show how shallow your posts are it is not amusing to think that you really might be one :/


i;m not avoiding your point at all. i'm discussing the very point. you just seem to not want to discuss it.

game mechanics aren't altered. those characters will exist at some point anyway. unless owning a character with 300m sp will break the game it doesn't matter if some one owns it tomorrow, or in 2025.

there is no issue associated with owning 300m sp characters, as the game is designed such that owning a 300m sp character is the very intention of how the *current* mechanics work.



Let`s say 400mil instead of 300mil.

Does such character exists with current game mechanics - no. If they implement this next year will it be possible to have it - yes. What means that something which should not be able to happen before 2020 will be able to happen in 2016.

If this is not proof of altering game mechanics then I do not know what else to draw you. Maybe to start from traffic lights and basic colors? :D


and why shouldn't it happen? what issue would arise from some one owning a 400m sp character tomorrow?

honestly - if you have a situation where a 400m sp character appearing tomorrow would be the thing to completely annihilate eve, i will shake your hand and proclaim that this was the worst idea ccp could have ever come up with.

so, let's hear it.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#1924 - 2015-10-16 16:08:23 UTC
Ripard Teg wrote:
OK, I've calmed down slightly. Let's give you guys some specific feedback so that you understand what a ******* terrible idea this is.

I have an alt I bought on the bazaar years ago. He has 82 million SP. Much of it is focused on mining and reprocessing, skills I haven't used in years. As long as I'm a whale...

Step 1: Pump a ton of Aurum into CCP to buy 84 Transneural Skill Extractors.
Step 2: Use them to create 84 Transneural Skill Packets for a total of 42 million SP.
Step 3: Consume 25 of them myself to bring myself to 50 million SP, dumping my useless SP and focusing this alt on incursion-running.
Step 4: Sell 59 Transneural Skill Packets on the market, making it more or less unnecessary for me to actually run incursions for a while since 59 of these are going to be worth a ton of ISK.

And that doesn't even get into the matter of using those 84 Packets to more or less instantly jump a new character from 0 to 40 million SP. Character ages and birth dates will become completely meaningless.

Again, I can do these things as long as I'm a whale and pump a ton of money into CCP for the 84 Transneural Skill Extractors.

Am I missing anything here? Who in God's name thought this was a good idea? Can we sell them to Riot?



Good points.

To answer your question a ccp that wants to make money thought this was a good idea. From what you describe that is what would happen - at least in the short term.

I think the long term problem with what you describe still needs to be stated. the fact that character ages are meaningless is not that big of a deal imo.

I think I would say the problem with this is people would no longer need any attachment to their character. You could always just start a new character and who knows who is who?

In a game like eve that relies on relationships that might be a real problem.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1925 - 2015-10-16 16:08:50 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Protect the prestige is not working, it is just more expensive to get it. You need to work on your comprehension skills.


the reason for the diminishing returns is as stated; regardless of whether it achieves that end or not.



read the devblog please. It says it protects, but it does not really do it. So it is fail on their side and (oh shocker) on yours as well. For you i have no worries as i understand that you have comprehension problems, but ccp coming up with such ideas is what worries me.


doesn't matter if it achieves it or not. the reason is the same regardless of what it does or doesn't do.


It matters of course. Because if it achieves it, CCP statement is faulty and incorrect. Which makes the whole story stupid (like it is not already) . And if we cannot be sure in CCP`s consistency of their game mechanics or their statements, it wont take much time before game dies.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#1926 - 2015-10-16 16:09:59 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
For people quitting in protest I remind them that Operation Magic School Bus does accept donations to help out the new players. Yes, this is a 'can I haz' post but it is one where the material will be put to good use, not just lining a wallet or hanger. Contract to me if you wish to donate.

m


People threaten to rage over everything these days. I don't see a reason to over this devblog as it is put out as a proposal to gather feedback and start a dialogue. People should always welcome such things.

I can understand some people's frustrations though as they associate every word that comes out from any employee of CCP as the company's policy. I'm not privy to their inner workings but I suspect they have many independent offices, teams and devs. Many of them seem to be misaligned and have different ideas about EVE.

If I thought that CCP as a compnay was seriously pushing for this idea I would be very worried. Everyone has their limit and there are some lines that should not be crossed.


What line are they crossing here that hasn't already been crossed?
Lelira Cirim
Doomheim
#1927 - 2015-10-16 16:10:06 UTC
Oh, this is exactly the opposite of what I thought the facebook link was talking about.

Because if you'd like to improve the Character Bazaar to be less like a bastard child of Tinder and Kijiji, and more like the in-game contract system, that'd be real swell!

This **** is ****. Thanks for asking.
*steals slice of pizza*

Do not actively tank my patience.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#1928 - 2015-10-16 16:10:11 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Laodell wrote:
The choices you made during skill training are a permanent mark on the character and should be.


And now they won't be. Explain to me why that's bad.


If you want a game with no consequences then why are you playing Eve?
Dave Stark
#1929 - 2015-10-16 16:11:38 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Protect the prestige is not working, it is just more expensive to get it. You need to work on your comprehension skills.


the reason for the diminishing returns is as stated; regardless of whether it achieves that end or not.



read the devblog please. It says it protects, but it does not really do it. So it is fail on their side and (oh shocker) on yours as well. For you i have no worries as i understand that you have comprehension problems, but ccp coming up with such ideas is what worries me.


doesn't matter if it achieves it or not. the reason is the same regardless of what it does or doesn't do.


It matters of course. Because if it achieves it, CCP statement is faulty and incorrect. Which makes the whole story stupid (like it is not already) . And if we cannot be sure in CCP`s consistency of their game mechanics or their statements, it wont take much time before game dies.


so what you're saying is that ccp are completely wide of the mark? you're welcome to think that. to be honest.

i don't think there's any prestige associated with owning a character for a long period of time - because of the character bazzar. anyone who wants one can have one, type of thing.

similarly there's nothing special about "having lots of sp" - because if you want lots of sp you can just go and buy it, all this new system does is make it less hassle.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1930 - 2015-10-16 16:11:47 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


yes.

everyone is able to use this system to increase their total sp to a value higher than it was previously.


read the devlog plz.

It states there it favours younger players. It is designed for everyone, but favours only younger players.




yes; which is very different to it being created for younger players. we've been through this.


oh really

so they state it favours younger players but it is not made for them and at the same time it protects older players but it does not do it for real. And you can lean on such statement to come up with something good? :D


no, it "We’ve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character." protects the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character. not "older players".

if you're going to ask leading questions at least have the decency to be correct in your quotations.


it doesnt really matter, the point is that it protects prestige of high sp players (no matter how you call them) and it cannot do it. But again you try to twist it out :)

Thank you for your contribution on this. Because if CCP takes opinions here in consideration you will be the most responsible person it will not be implemented :)

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Robert Warner
Back Door Burglars
#1931 - 2015-10-16 16:13:01 UTC
Querns wrote:
Robert Warner wrote:
CCP Logibro wrote:
[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68656/1/skilltrade1_550.jpg[/img]
The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside.


While many of my compatriots will likely shun any notion of trading skill points, I must say the idea doesn't bother me (and yes I'm a player who has multiple characters over or approaching 200M SP). I don't mind certain ingrained mechanics being changed provided there is a rational reason behind it and that the solution is well conceived and well implemented (take note Fozzie sov).

My main concern is in pricing of the packet itself in Aurum: we are already developing a serious issue with the price of PLEX and without being a doomsayer, the game has lost 25% of its active player base since February of this year (source: Eve-offline.net) - an extraordinary statistic by any reckoning. My primary interest is seeing a recovery in player activity, for the good of both myself and the Developer.

While I'm sure CCP's accountants are eyeing this as a financial opportunity, I would very strongly suggest extreme caution in the introduction of further micro-transactions based on the PLEX/Aurum model at this time. Eve is currently in a very delicate position, following a number of somewhat dubious design changes, now requiring substantial time and investment to repair. If the game world loses critical mass of players, it may 'fail cascade' very quickly.

If such a feature really must be introduced within the next year, careful planning of pricing will be required to ensure no further stress is placed on the transferable game time market.

This is a fair point, but it's sort of looking at it the wrong way.

Right now, to affect a transfer of SP to a person, one has to pay 2 PLEX just to do the transfer. This is in addition to whatever deal the two parties struck.

Adding an aurum cost to skill extractors merely maintains this "tax;" it doesn't add a new source of pressure to PLEX. You can expect quite a bit of the pressure to PLEX applied by the Character Bazaar to be relieved as folks move to this more granular, personalizable system.

Of course, the transfer won't be perfect; it could indeed increase total PLEX pressure, or maybe even reduce it overall. It remains to be seen.


This is indeed my concern. While the Charcter Bazaar will still be active, albeit at a lower level of acivity, the question becomes whether the in-game transfer of skill points via the Aurum vector translates to a higher consumption of transferrable game time (PLEX) in the overall sense. My distinct suspicion is that it probably will, that CCP realise this, and this is why CCP are thinking of introducing this feature in the first place.

My distinct impression is that not all is as it seems with this 'good intention' of introducing this feature so players can keep their character names. While it ostensibly appears noble in nature, I smell that the financial incentive is the driving force here and the dressing up of this idea by CCP Rise was upon request by the financial team. A Trojan horse, if you will.
Dave Stark
#1932 - 2015-10-16 16:14:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Don ZOLA wrote:

it doesnt really matter, the point is that it protects prestige of high sp players (no matter how you call them) and it cannot do it. But again you try to twist it out :)

Thank you for your contribution on this. Because if CCP takes opinions here in consideration you will be the most responsible person it will not be implemented :)


twist out of what?

even if there weren't diminishing returns on this system it it would still prevent the situation where everyone has a 400m sp character. not everyone has infinitely deep pockets - and there isn't an infinite amount of SP to be distributed.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1933 - 2015-10-16 16:14:19 UTC
Estevan Andrard wrote:
Well, they say "Each peoples have the government it deserves."

It seems "Each playerbase has the game they deserve."

CCP, do whatever you want. People will swallow it as it seems.


You're only half right. "People will swallow it as it seems" is the 1st half. "People will act like they weren't in favor of it and won't admit they were wrong about it when it proves to be a total disaster" is the other half.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1934 - 2015-10-16 16:14:43 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
And again avoiding, my point owning 300mil sp (300mils is just example, can be 290 or 400)character proves exactly that game mechanics are altered. The thing you are failing to counter argument for last 30 spam posts you made :D

I am starting to feel like i am arguing a person with special needs and while it is quite easy to show how shallow your posts are it is not amusing to think that you really might be one :/


i;m not avoiding your point at all. i'm discussing the very point. you just seem to not want to discuss it.

game mechanics aren't altered. those characters will exist at some point anyway. unless owning a character with 300m sp will break the game it doesn't matter if some one owns it tomorrow, or in 2025.

there is no issue associated with owning 300m sp characters, as the game is designed such that owning a 300m sp character is the very intention of how the *current* mechanics work.



Let`s say 400mil instead of 300mil.

Does such character exists with current game mechanics - no. If they implement this next year will it be possible to have it - yes. What means that something which should not be able to happen before 2020 will be able to happen in 2016.

If this is not proof of altering game mechanics then I do not know what else to draw you. Maybe to start from traffic lights and basic colors? :D


and why shouldn't it happen? what issue would arise from some one owning a 400m sp character tomorrow?

honestly - if you have a situation where a 400m sp character appearing tomorrow would be the thing to completely annihilate eve, i will shake your hand and proclaim that this was the worst idea ccp could have ever come up with.

so, let's hear it.


It will obviously be doable, only question is if anyone wants to be #1 that badly.

I have already explained the importance of consistency in relations to your customers. Find a post and read it. Try to comprehend as well please :)

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Vollhov
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1935 - 2015-10-16 16:14:46 UTC
The premium ships waiting longQuestion By slaying a NPCs giving more income. Bear

End of Time. I'm not fanatic, I'm just a servant by Her Majesty the Empress Jamyl Sarum I. It's time to leave this world to me. YC111 to YC117.12.10 20:00
Dave Stark
#1936 - 2015-10-16 16:15:34 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
It will obviously be doable, only question is if anyone wants to be #1 that badly.

I have already explained the importance of consistency in relations to your customers. Find a post and read it. Try to comprehend as well please :)


yes - so what issue will there be when some one does do it?

what problem will that cause?
Bloody2k
SKULL AND B0NES
#1937 - 2015-10-16 16:15:49 UTC
I fear that it was not the idea of CCP. Much more, I suspect that sponsors want to increase profits.
sixteen 64
1664.
#1938 - 2015-10-16 16:16:45 UTC
I've already said how I feel about the topic, just going to add, my account expires in 5 days, and I'm not renewing it all the time selling unallocated SP is a thing.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#1939 - 2015-10-16 16:18:01 UTC
Orions Lord wrote:
I have enough on this pvp character so if I sell 1 mont earned skill point does that equal me an plex.
Then eve will be free to play for me.

I am sure CCP would love that loss of income.


I was thinking that myself, I only fly frigs and literally only train skills because I am paying the sub. I might as well just farm out all my new SPs that I am not going to use and plex my account from here on in, do CCP really want to offer more ways for people to stop subbing with real money ? Obviously someone has to pay real money but in my case that real money would go into my pocket and not CCPs.
Uncle Dunk
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1940 - 2015-10-16 16:18:59 UTC
Hi,

-You can even buy them dank injectors for iskies too, so not exclusive to credit cards. Some people seem to be forgetting this.

-someone in here cares about someone having 300m sp and breaking the game, which shows you care about e-peen too much. Please consider the benefits in regards to the enjoyment of the game this will have.

-time on an active account is still the only thing that increases the net sp in the game. So there will definitely be a supply and demand instead of a bottomless CCP cashpit that vomits back sp.

-There will also be less multiple char trainings due to this and a decrease in total sp due to respecs. Your e-peen 100m+ char will thus be worth more.

btw CCP:

-If you do not want to limp the bittervet e-peen, you may want to introduce a hard cap, ie not able to inject after 120m sp. I don't care, but it might lower a lot of pitchforks