These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Dave Stark
#1901 - 2015-10-16 15:57:29 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
does it favour everyone?


yes.

everyone is able to use this system to increase their total sp to a value higher than it was previously.

bingo Blink


was his name'o!
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1902 - 2015-10-16 15:57:37 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
And then i challenge you to find 300mil sp char now and you cannot find it. Yet with this "feature" it will be doable. But then you skip to commenting that SP does not matter which is not related to original argument at all. And so you just keep taking one sentence out of context and keep changing subject every time you cannot come up with and argument for a challenge. Why are you surprised then, when i treat you as troll?

You have spammed this thread a lot, yet I do not think you made a single proper counter argument to solid arguments which are done here. SO enjoy your troll treatment.


what issue will a 300m sp character pose? and what should be done to prevent anyone ever owning a 300m sp character?

how will a character with 300m sp be an issue such that this idea should never happen?

300m sp characters will, at some point, happen. why should that point never come to pass?


Again you are changing the subject. Why not answer my question? Ah because then you would have to admit you are wrong...

Game mechanics does not give you possibility to own 300 mils sp char at the moment. After this changes you will be able to have it ahead of the time regularly needed for it. It will cost but you will be able to have it. And that means that game mechanics will be changed.

But please, keep repeating it will not, and keep your argument lacking posting, I am actually enjoying how you make yourself look like a clown :D And hopefully CCP will read this topic and after they see what people who support this idea think and say they will find out how ******** it is :D


because your only question wasn't related to the topic we're discussing.

you've yet to point out the issue caused by owning a 300m sp character.


And again avoiding, my point owning 300mil sp (300mils is just example, can be 290 or 400)character proves exactly that game mechanics are altered. The thing you are failing to counter argument for last 30 spam posts you made :D

I am starting to feel like i am arguing a person with special needs and while it is quite easy to show how shallow your posts are it is not amusing to think that you really might be one :/

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1903 - 2015-10-16 15:57:58 UTC

Estevan Andrard wrote:
Once a veteran does it, a charismatic veteran can start a cult to make it so lots of people do the same.

In no time you have actual no fly zones as far in hisec as Jita. With less than 200 USD cost.


We already have skill plans for every single type of pilot in EVE. I don't understand what this change has anything to do with it.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#1904 - 2015-10-16 15:58:20 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Tippia wrote:
except that the bazaar does not bypass any game mechanics. You cannot increase the SP on your character in bulk or make it acquire SP any faster through the use of the bazaar. All you can do is continue to acquire SP at the same maximum speed as everyone else on a character that has been built, still using that same maximum speed, by someone else. At no point in all of that are the mechanics that determine SP acquisition — or indeed any mechancis — bypassed, altered, or in any way tweaked.


The Bazaar does bypass game mechanics. Purchasing a character instantly increases the SP pool in your account. Those SP in the character you bought weren't trained by you, and yet here they sit now in your account.

It is exactly and fundamentally the same (in concept) to the SP boost you will receive from this change.

I believe your issue with it is the flexibility, and I haven't seen you prove why this flexibility is bad for EVE.



Personally I would say that flexibility is good, but the possibilities to exploit or META the F out of the proposed system would need to be ironed out.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Dave Stark
#1905 - 2015-10-16 15:58:47 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
does it favour everyone?


yes.

everyone is able to use this system to increase their total sp to a value higher than it was previously.


read the devlog plz.

It states there it favours younger players. It is designed for everyone, but favours only younger players.




yes; which is very different to it being created for younger players. we've been through this.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1906 - 2015-10-16 15:58:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Sibyyl wrote:
The Bazaar lets you buy SP you didn't train yourself.

No. It lets you buy characters you didn't build on your account. They were still built, entirely in line with the game mechanics that
determine how you can build a character.

Your getting access to that character does not in any way skip, bypass, or is even related to any game mechanics. It is a dev-approved EULA exemption; not a game function.
IlIIlIIIlllIlIllIIIIll
Doomheim
#1907 - 2015-10-16 15:59:23 UTC
I hate this idea so much i even log in to reply to this post ...




Just no, it's a really bad idea

You can already pay to win with plex, or paying an high sp account via other players.

It will never stop or minimise the ammount of players who buy char illegally.

And how about the players who spend so much time training skills ? (like everyone not just old vet)

What the point when we will be able to train 100M sp in a day ?

The more money you'll make in game and the more sp you will be able to buy it's just game breaking.

Quote:
we would be looking at a large web feature for browsing, buying, and selling characters


Just do that, people will be able to trade char, end of story, don't touch our LP.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1908 - 2015-10-16 15:59:51 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Protect the prestige is not working, it is just more expensive to get it. You need to work on your comprehension skills.


the reason for the diminishing returns is as stated; regardless of whether it achieves that end or not.



read the devblog please. It says it protects, but it does not really do it. So it is fail on their side and (oh shocker) on yours as well. For you i have no worries as i understand that you have comprehension problems, but ccp coming up with such ideas is what worries me.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Dave Stark
#1909 - 2015-10-16 16:00:54 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
And again avoiding, my point owning 300mil sp (300mils is just example, can be 290 or 400)character proves exactly that game mechanics are altered. The thing you are failing to counter argument for last 30 spam posts you made :D

I am starting to feel like i am arguing a person with special needs and while it is quite easy to show how shallow your posts are it is not amusing to think that you really might be one :/


i;m not avoiding your point at all. i'm discussing the very point. you just seem to not want to discuss it.

game mechanics aren't altered. those characters will exist at some point anyway. unless owning a character with 300m sp will break the game it doesn't matter if some one owns it tomorrow, or in 2025.

there is no issue associated with owning 300m sp characters, as the game is designed such that owning a 300m sp character is the very intention of how the *current* mechanics work.
Rawthorm
The Establishment
#1910 - 2015-10-16 16:01:01 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:
You talk about bypassing mechanics but I think you ignore the difference between bypassing mechanics and mechanics evolving. warp to zero, scan changes, hell the addition of autopilot all "bypassed" the mechanics of the day, and you know what, they were all for the better.
But this isn't a case of evolving — it's a case of putting a paywall on letting some players work under vastly different conditions.

If they wanted to evolve the mechanics, they would have made it universal: remove attributes; double (or something) training speed, possibly with some slow-down based on total SP; remove the remaining instances of SP loss. Bish bash bosh, evolved training with very similar effects. In short, they would actually have altered the underlying mechanic rather than put a cash-based layer on top of it, where the main purpose is to not be bothered by the mechanic to begin with.

I use the word “bypassed” for a very specific reason: they are not actually changing the mechanic. They are only providing means to skip over some of the effects that players occasionally complain about. The actual reasons for the complaint are still there and still apply as much as ever to anyone who doesn't want to pay.

Sibyyl wrote:
The Bazaar does bypass game mechanics. Purchasing a character instantly increases the SP pool in your account.

SP pool on your account is not a game mechanic.

Player — character access — EULA.
Character — SP acquisition — game mechanics.

Don't confuse the two.


I hate to break it to you, but this isn't behind a paywall. If it was exclusively for people who hand over RL money then sure, but just like PLEX they can also be bought for ISK on the open market. At this point it's no more behind a paywall than say a Titan you currently can't afford.

I also think your really starting to abuse the term "game mechanic" as I think in your context it's really a non-issue. SP as a game mechanic determines what you can or can not fly. Buying a character means that me as a person can fly whatever ship I want and I think anyone who cares under which name I do it is really just trying to argue the toss for the sake of it.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1911 - 2015-10-16 16:01:20 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
does it favour everyone?


yes.

everyone is able to use this system to increase their total sp to a value higher than it was previously.


read the devlog plz.

It states there it favours younger players. It is designed for everyone, but favours only younger players.




yes; which is very different to it being created for younger players. we've been through this.


oh really

so they state it favours younger players but it is not made for them and at the same time it protects older players but it does not do it for real. And you can lean on such statement to come up with something good? :D

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Chigiku
DDo Squad Gaming
#1912 - 2015-10-16 16:01:21 UTC
I think it shouldn't be done, though if it does i would probably use & abuse it TwistedTwistedTwisted

I would prefer if it could be like skill transference instead of transforming any number of sp in unallocated one, twould avoid the low sp farm, people would still make char to sell those skills as people already do for character sale as a whole

though even that, seems dangerous to me!

as other people pointed twould give a pay to win free to play vibe to eve
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1913 - 2015-10-16 16:01:21 UTC

Tippia wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
The Bazaar lets you buy SP you didn't train yourself.

No. It lets you buy characters you didn't build on your account. They were still built, entirely in line with the game mechanics that
determine how you can build a character.

Your getting access to that character does not in any way skip, bypass, or is even related to any game mechanics. It is a dev-approved EULA exemption; not a game function.


You certainly place importance on that distinction, by why is it important?

Now characters and their SP are modular. Why is that bad?

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Dave Stark
#1914 - 2015-10-16 16:01:41 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Protect the prestige is not working, it is just more expensive to get it. You need to work on your comprehension skills.


the reason for the diminishing returns is as stated; regardless of whether it achieves that end or not.



read the devblog please. It says it protects, but it does not really do it. So it is fail on their side and (oh shocker) on yours as well. For you i have no worries as i understand that you have comprehension problems, but ccp coming up with such ideas is what worries me.


doesn't matter if it achieves it or not. the reason is the same regardless of what it does or doesn't do.
Laodell
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#1915 - 2015-10-16 16:02:04 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Laodell wrote:
The choices you made during skill training are a permanent mark on the character and should be.


And now they won't be. Explain to me why that's bad.




Because you can't wish consequences away. Who you are, in game or out, is a reflection of the choices you or the previous owner made. That's part of the consequences, or balance if I may, of buying SP though the purchase of a new toon.

Just being able to abstract the purchase of the SP through whatever euphemism is still paying to win. There's some 'loss' in the equation that can be compensated by more cash but what's 10% of your SP when the exchange rate is so much more in favor of cash? Sure someone still has to buy the plexes with cash but not everyone does. For some free to play is a real thing. And this will only make that easier.

'Buying Sp through the Bazaar' has consequence to offset the time investment. All SP should have a balance that is not cash-based.
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1916 - 2015-10-16 16:02:48 UTC
Well, they say "Each peoples have the government it deserves."

It seems "Each playerbase has the game they deserve."

CCP, do whatever you want. People will swallow it as it seems.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
Dave Stark
#1917 - 2015-10-16 16:03:30 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
does it favour everyone?


yes.

everyone is able to use this system to increase their total sp to a value higher than it was previously.


read the devlog plz.

It states there it favours younger players. It is designed for everyone, but favours only younger players.




yes; which is very different to it being created for younger players. we've been through this.


oh really

so they state it favours younger players but it is not made for them and at the same time it protects older players but it does not do it for real. And you can lean on such statement to come up with something good? :D


no, it "We’ve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character." protects the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character. not "older players".

if you're going to ask leading questions at least have the decency to be correct in your quotations.
Rawthorm
The Establishment
#1918 - 2015-10-16 16:04:15 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
The Bazaar lets you buy SP you didn't train yourself.

No. It lets you buy characters you didn't build on your account. They were still built, entirely in line with the game mechanics that
determine how you can build a character.

Your getting access to that character does not in any way skip, bypass, or is even related to any game mechanics. It is a dev-approved EULA exemption; not a game function.


Jump drives allow people to "bypass" the mechanic of using stargates for travel. Both characters still arrive at their end destination so whats the issue? I'm guessing you don't have one, so whats the issue with the same path for SP? It's not like those skills were not obtainable via a more convoluted path (IE waiting it out or buying a character to skip the process entirely) anyway?
Alexander Renoir
Covenant Trading Agency
#1919 - 2015-10-16 16:04:59 UTC
Really CCP? You want to bring skillpoint- trading? And it isn't something other than skillpoint- trading for me!
Its a daft idea in the beginning! It is sad to see what direction Eve goes.

May I ask if your terrific team, with such ideas, ever played EVE online? I mean longer than 1 year? Do they even know what eve online WAS standing for?

Perhaps it is time to move on ... to other games.
I strongly recommend to trash the idea of skillpoint-trading at once. It is horrible, unnecessary and it is wrong on so many Levels.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1920 - 2015-10-16 16:05:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Don ZOLA
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
And again avoiding, my point owning 300mil sp (300mils is just example, can be 290 or 400)character proves exactly that game mechanics are altered. The thing you are failing to counter argument for last 30 spam posts you made :D

I am starting to feel like i am arguing a person with special needs and while it is quite easy to show how shallow your posts are it is not amusing to think that you really might be one :/


i;m not avoiding your point at all. i'm discussing the very point. you just seem to not want to discuss it.

game mechanics aren't altered. those characters will exist at some point anyway. unless owning a character with 300m sp will break the game it doesn't matter if some one owns it tomorrow, or in 2025.

there is no issue associated with owning 300m sp characters, as the game is designed such that owning a 300m sp character is the very intention of how the *current* mechanics work.



Let`s say 400mil instead of 300mil.

Does such character exists with current game mechanics - no. If they implement this next year will it be possible to have it - yes. What means that something which should not be able to happen before 2020 will be able to happen in 2016.


edit: Which obviously shows the difference in tempo you are gaining sp. Someone needed 20 years to get up to that and someone will be able to do it in 1 day.

If this is not proof of altering game mechanics then I do not know what else to draw you. Maybe to start from traffic lights and basic colors? :D

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know