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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1881 - 2015-10-16 15:49:56 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Laodell wrote:
The choices you made during skill training are a permanent mark on the character and should be.


And now they won't be. Explain to me why that's bad.



Because it's a lessening of the game we are playing. Choices matter, they are the only things that give the experiences we have in EVE VALUE. This idea diminishes the value of the choices players make as well as the time they spend learning from and correcting their mistakes (and lets them do so with real life money in a way they previously could not), which diminishes the overall value of the game.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1882 - 2015-10-16 15:50:19 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
try reading the devblog.

it clearly states it favours younger players.


never said it didn't.

i pointed out the fact, as stated by the devblog, that this suggestion is aimed at everyone; not new just new players. i know reading is hard, but try it. please.



does it favour everyone? Nope, just young players. It is aimed at everyone in such great manner that not more than 1% of people will use it. Let me quote one of the previous posts you have already avoided to answer, so you can avoid it again, just for lolz:

"So CCP is changing the fundamentals of their game, fundamentals of multi million usd/eur business, to provide option to some people who did mistakes in skilling their chars or need just some more sp to make their dreams come true. Company is changing fundamentals of such business to gain couple of thousands usd/eur more or to make 1% of player base happier?"

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Corylus Avellana
Avaricious Crustaceans
#1883 - 2015-10-16 15:50:53 UTC
Is it April's Fools? I've reactivated few month ago and you want me to regret that?

Utterly terrible idea. Another step to pay2win junk.
Dave stark
#1884 - 2015-10-16 15:50:54 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
And then i challenge you to find 300mil sp char now and you cannot find it. Yet with this "feature" it will be doable. But then you skip to commenting that SP does not matter which is not related to original argument at all. And so you just keep taking one sentence out of context and keep changing subject every time you cannot come up with and argument for a challenge. Why are you surprised then, when i treat you as troll?

You have spammed this thread a lot, yet I do not think you made a single proper counter argument to solid arguments which are done here. SO enjoy your troll treatment.


what issue will a 300m sp character pose? and what should be done to prevent anyone ever owning a 300m sp character?

how will a character with 300m sp be an issue such that this idea should never happen?

300m sp characters will, at some point, happen. why should that point never come to pass?


Again you are changing the subject. Why not answer my question? Ah because then you would have to admit you are wrong...

Game mechanics does not give you possibility to own 300 mils sp char at the moment. After this changes you will be able to have it ahead of the time regularly needed for it. It will cost but you will be able to have it. And that means that game mechanics will be changed.

But please, keep repeating it will not, and keep your argument lacking posting, I am actually enjoying how you make yourself look like a clown :D And hopefully CCP will read this topic and after they see what people who support this idea think and say they will find out how ******** it is :D


because your only question wasn't related to the topic we're discussing.

you've yet to point out the issue caused by owning a 300m sp character.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1885 - 2015-10-16 15:51:01 UTC

Talsha Talamar wrote:
It has been pointed out several times in this thread that the character bazaar is not the same as the proposed system for trading skill points.

Your argument is actually the invalid one since it assumes an identity of terms, where it is not given.

The Character Bazaar isn't the same as this SP mechanic change. I never said they were one in the same. But as far as the "skipping to endgame content" argument goes, yes they are exactly the same.



Quote:
-> Skill Trading would allow to micro-customize any character new or existing.
It would even allow to micro-customize on the fly during operations.
Skill Trading would allow to train new characters up in minutes.
The costs of micro customizing would be below those of buying a complete character.

And why is micro customizing as a concept bad? I don't (yet) see an argument (not an opinion) against.



Quote:
b) History of Characters - Intelligence & Consequences
-> Characters on the bazaar have a history that reflects their identity in game.
The older a character is, the more history it likely has.
Looking at corp history, eve-search, killboards, age, sec status ... are important tools ingame to evaluate another character.

-> Skill Trading would allow to create high-sp characters that have a virgin history.

Maybe you haven't been on the Character Bazaar. Characters are traded on and off the Bazaar using anonymous alts. The intelligence you gather isn't perfect, and I don't particularly think it's bad that spies gain an advantage from this change. Spies take down corps and create content.



Quote:
c) Availability of Characters
-> The amount characters for sale on the Bazaar is limited by the number of characters trained.
-> Skill Trading would create an unlimited amount of supply of characters with any skillset.

The skills you trade were trained by someone else, exactly in the same way as in the Bazaar. There is no "unlimited" SP since every SP would have to be trained in advance (just like Character Bazaar).


Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Dave stark
#1886 - 2015-10-16 15:51:51 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
does it favour everyone?


yes.

everyone is able to use this system to increase their total sp to a value higher than it was previously.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1887 - 2015-10-16 15:52:03 UTC

Gregor Parud wrote:
When you do that you buy an existing character with a character age (probably relative to its SP count), a character history, skill point allocation and a name. THAT CHARACTER is perfectly in line with the normal rules of the sandbox regardless of its actual owner. This new idea does NOT follow the normal character progression rules.

"Normal". Now are you going to defend why "normal" is "holy"? Why is it too holy to touch with a change like this? Why is the change actually bad?

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#1888 - 2015-10-16 15:52:24 UTC
Solution: start everyone out with all skills trained.

So far this is a pure troll proposal. But what if we add SP loss at podkill back into the mixture ?

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1889 - 2015-10-16 15:53:01 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Logical deduction will tell you that this will clearly be affordable if this is meant to be designed to help new players.



except that nowhere in the devblog, does it state that.

not a single place. there is ONE instance of the phrase "new players" in the devblog, and it doesn't say it's for them. the reference to "new players" is that they've noticed us talking about it. not once have they said this is for new players in that devblog. not a single time.


"0 – 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added
5 – 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added
50 – 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added
> 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added
As you can see, this design favors skill transfers for younger characters and makes them very inefficient for older characters. We’ve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character."

Now younger characters does not necessarily always mean new players, but you have to pretty damned obtuse to not see it is at least biased towards benefiting new players, both in their mentioning of them and in the skill point distribution.


now carry on reading, please.

"We’ve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character."

oh look, we can clearly see the reason for that change. again, go back to the devblog and read it.

the paragraph after quite literally says "By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone." that it's for everyone not just new players.

read
the
devblog


Try to read with understanding. Protect the prestige is not working, it is just more expensive to get it. You need to work on your comprehension skills.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
SFX Bladerunner
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1890 - 2015-10-16 15:53:14 UTC
Skinzee wrote:


SP ISNT EVERYTHING... EXPERIENCE IS ALSO REQUIRED.


Exactly our point.

If you didn't have to gradually make your way up the SP ladder to fly that shiny ship with the shiny mods, you don't have an appreciation for it or its worth.

If something didn't take you any effort or time to attain, you have no respect for it.. how could you.

That'd be like saying it's ok to hand a 16yo kid a nuclear bomb as long as his cheque clears out ok...
No effort, no responsibility, no respect.
Certain things you just shouldn't have access to unless you've proven your worth and ability to handle them properly be it through training, learning, figuring it out yourself or whatever.
There's plenty of stories and movies and other works of fiction out there trying to hammer down this idea, alas it is unfortunate to see even here in New Eden people are still struggling with the concept.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1891 - 2015-10-16 15:53:32 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Solution: start everyone out with all skills trained.
I've been suggesting that for years.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1892 - 2015-10-16 15:53:59 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
does it favour everyone?


yes.

everyone is able to use this system to increase their total sp to a value higher than it was previously.


read the devlog plz.

It states there it favours younger players. It is designed for everyone, but favours only younger players.


There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1893 - 2015-10-16 15:53:59 UTC

Tippia wrote:
except that the bazaar does not bypass any game mechanics. You cannot increase the SP on your character in bulk or make it acquire SP any faster through the use of the bazaar. All you can do is continue to acquire SP at the same maximum speed as everyone else on a character that has been built, still using that same maximum speed, by someone else. At no point in all of that are the mechanics that determine SP acquisition — or indeed any mechancis — bypassed, altered, or in any way tweaked.


The Bazaar does bypass game mechanics. Purchasing a character instantly increases the SP pool in your account. Those SP in the character you bought weren't trained by you, and yet here they sit now in your account.

It is exactly and fundamentally the same (in concept) to the SP boost you will receive from this change.

I believe your issue with it is the flexibility, and I haven't seen you prove why this flexibility is bad for EVE.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1894 - 2015-10-16 15:54:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Rawthorm wrote:
You talk about bypassing mechanics but I think you ignore the difference between bypassing mechanics and mechanics evolving. warp to zero, scan changes, hell the addition of autopilot all "bypassed" the mechanics of the day, and you know what, they were all for the better.
But this isn't a case of evolving — it's a case of putting a paywall on letting some players work under vastly different conditions.

If they wanted to evolve the mechanics, they would have made it universal: remove attributes; double (or something) training speed, possibly with some slow-down based on total SP; remove the remaining instances of SP loss. Bish bash bosh, evolved training with very similar effects. In short, they would actually have altered the underlying mechanic rather than put a cash-based layer on top of it, where the main purpose is to not be bothered by the mechanic to begin with.

I use the word “bypassed” for a very specific reason: they are not actually changing the mechanic. They are only providing means to skip over some of the effects that players occasionally complain about. The actual reasons for the complaint are still there and still apply as much as ever to anyone who doesn't want to pay.

Sibyyl wrote:
The Bazaar does bypass game mechanics. Purchasing a character instantly increases the SP pool in your account.

SP pool on your account is not a game mechanic.

Player — character access — EULA.
Character — SP acquisition — game mechanics.

Don't confuse the two.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#1895 - 2015-10-16 15:54:14 UTC
Also:
There are a percentage of the player base that don't really play any more, but they keep the account subbed so they can keep skilling.
This proposal would let them drop the subscription, because they could just buy the SP later.
At this juncture though, "later" might never happen. Most subscriptions would most likely never re-sub.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1896 - 2015-10-16 15:54:56 UTC

SFX Bladerunner wrote:
If you didn't have to gradually make your way up the SP ladder to fly that shiny ship with the shiny mods, you don't have an appreciation for it or its worth.


There's a Character Bazaar. Did you miss it?

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1897 - 2015-10-16 15:55:23 UTC
Lets lol a bit.

What is the difference of a char owning tons of SP ?

It is contraproducent to cultivate a pletoria of alts that can fit a destroyer with its maximum DPS if you need to wait months to have it.

As you can just buy a skill pill bottle, you just can make a capacitor, speed, damage, agility and sig radius efficient army of t1 frigate alts capable of detroying a trillion ship piloting a less than 1 mil ship which would need almost 1000 alts to match cost, not counting module costs which differ A LOT.

Once a veteran does it, a charismatic veteran can start a cult to make it so lots of people do the same.

In no time you have actual no fly zones as far in hisec as Jita. With less than 200 USD cost.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1898 - 2015-10-16 15:56:09 UTC

Tippia wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:

The Bazaar does bypass game mechanics. Purchasing a character instantly increases the SP pool in your account.
SP pool on your account is not a game mechanic.


The Bazaar lets you buy SP you didn't train yourself.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Dave stark
#1899 - 2015-10-16 15:56:23 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Protect the prestige is not working, it is just more expensive to get it. You need to work on your comprehension skills.


the reason for the diminishing returns is as stated; regardless of whether it achieves that end or not.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#1900 - 2015-10-16 15:56:25 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
does it favour everyone?


yes.

everyone is able to use this system to increase their total sp to a value higher than it was previously.

bingo Blink