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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Dave Stark
#1701 - 2015-10-16 13:22:36 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
"supporters" have no counter arguments for those.


there's not really a lot to counter.

nothing about this new system is new or interesting - you've always been able to bypass the passive training system by buying/selling characters. now you just do it in sp directly.


There are plenty of things to counter. When you see proposed ideas there are always arguments pro & cons. We lack those pro arguments here as " great innovation, way to go ccp" is not really an argument.

And when making such decisions beside pro & cons you need to take possible side effects in the consideration. And there are plenty in this case. Luckily, we can hope there are people smarter and more analytical than you working for CCP.

edit: It is new, they are changing the fundamentals of the game, causing inconsistency in it. I understand that you cannot comprehend why is that not good :)


except the fundamentals really aren't being changed - anyone who wants a huge sp boost can already get one.

the fact it already exists means there's very little pros/cons of this idea. it already exists, just in a more convoluted form.

pretending this is anything other than a quality of life change is laughable.


Except that is not truth. Can you get 300mil sp char now? Is there any possibility to do so? NO.

Please do not go into how much it will cost to get it after the changes, it will be doable so fundamentals will be changed. And in that way the consistency and customer-service relationship.




is there anything a 300m sp character can do that i can't get any other character to do? no.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1702 - 2015-10-16 13:23:29 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Except that is not truth. Can you get 300mil sp char now? Is there any possibility to do so? NO.

Please do not go into how much it will cost to get it after the changes, it will be doable so fundamentals will be changed. And in that way the consistency and customer-service relationship.

Oh no, a fundamentalist.

Also, the customer-service in the bazaar is pretty good, I'll admit. They really have their work cut out constantly removing posts from there. Good thing SP packets won't need that busywork.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
deezy 1dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
#1703 - 2015-10-16 13:23:57 UTC
I just wanted to say that overall I support this idea.

It is really a huge improvement on character trading while also creating a huge SP sink once you have done it a certain number of times.

It will give dummies like me the chance to fly around in things we really should not be flying to give out some sweet kill mails to the real PVPers running around.



I see what people are saying about an issue with not being able to guess a persons SP by tapping their name in local but I would call that for the better. I remember in my first few months being very harshly targeted specifically for my low age. I may have come out better on the other side of dealing with that but that is not changed here. The only difference is those pirates could end up being the easy target when they jump in on someone who has dumped in a load of cash.

Only flying what you can afford to lose will take on a whole new meaning when newbies in battleships go where they should not be and get wiped out by a small group of players that actually know what they are doing with their SP.


With all that being said I do see people feeling like this significantly demeans their SP investment but there is much more that comes from growing your assets and abilities over time than just being able to sport a flashy ship that would take newbies a year or more to get.


Just my 2 ISK that will get quickly overlooked.

o7
Dave Stark
#1704 - 2015-10-16 13:24:56 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
a new player who starts playing today can't get past a few thousand SP. the character bazzar bypasses that limit.
No it does not. The new player's characters are restricted by the same mechanics as everyone else's. You are confusing character and player.

Put another way: you say that the character bazaar can bypass the game mechanic that determines how quickly characters acquire skills. Ok, let's test that. I want to train Tippia at 5,000 SP/h (which the new scheme will let me do) rather than the ~2,600 she's currently stuck at. Could you please point me to the post or process in the bazaar that lets me do this.



And while you're there, show me where I can buy back T3 skills immediately after a welp.

Because that will be a thing for big alliance.

"Nice one guys, we actually beat the T3 blob, they're down for a few days to retrain, most likely"
>LOLISK and we're back.


you mean - you don't have multiple t3 pilots like the rest of us?

peasant.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1705 - 2015-10-16 13:28:03 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
a new player who starts playing today can't get past a few thousand SP. the character bazzar bypasses that limit.
No it does not. The new player's characters are restricted by the same mechanics as everyone else's. You are confusing character and player.

Put another way: you say that the character bazaar can bypass the game mechanic that determines how quickly characters acquire skills. Ok, let's test that. I want to train Tippia at 5,000 SP/h (which the new scheme will let me do) rather than the ~2,600 she's currently stuck at. Could you please point me to the post or process in the bazaar that lets me do this.



And while you're there, show me where I can buy back T3 skills immediately after a welp.

Because that will be a thing for big alliance.

"Nice one guys, we actually beat the T3 blob, they're down for a few days to retrain, most likely"
>LOLISK and we're back.


+1

This post embodies my opposition to the idea.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1706 - 2015-10-16 13:28:57 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Aha so it is designed for those who it does not favor?


it's designed for everyone

"By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone."

if you took a moment to read the devblog, that would be fantastic.


I did not just read it, I have also comprehended it, I suggest you do the same, maybe then you will figure it out.


Ie instead of just blindly reading you could try to get the picture of it and understand the whole mechanism and then realize that it obviously works as they said "it favours younger players". Not many older players will use it. And guess what - not many young players either.

Coming again to something i already have drawn to you, they are making change which will benefit only minor amount of player base and in order to do so they are changing the fundamentals.

It does not really matter what they wrote, what matters is how it will actually work and in that part they have obviously failed to analyze possible threats. Or they do not really care about the player base and just want to milk some more while the game lats.
Both options sucks.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1707 - 2015-10-16 13:30:35 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


there's not really a lot to counter.

nothing about this new system is new or interesting - you've always been able to bypass the passive training system by buying/selling characters. now you just do it in sp directly.


There are plenty of things to counter. When you see proposed ideas there are always arguments pro & cons. We lack those pro arguments here as " great innovation, way to go ccp" is not really an argument.

And when making such decisions beside pro & cons you need to take possible side effects in the consideration. And there are plenty in this case. Luckily, we can hope there are people smarter and more analytical than you working for CCP.

edit: It is new, they are changing the fundamentals of the game, causing inconsistency in it. I understand that you cannot comprehend why is that not good :)


except the fundamentals really aren't being changed - anyone who wants a huge sp boost can already get one.

the fact it already exists means there's very little pros/cons of this idea. it already exists, just in a more convoluted form.

pretending this is anything other than a quality of life change is laughable.


Except that is not truth. Can you get 300mil sp char now? Is there any possibility to do so? NO.

Please do not go into how much it will cost to get it after the changes, it will be doable so fundamentals will be changed. And in that way the consistency and customer-service relationship.




is there anything a 300m sp character can do that i can't get any other character to do? no.


That does not answer my question. Thanks for proving you are here just for gibberish spam.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1708 - 2015-10-16 13:30:53 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
a new player who starts playing today can't get past a few thousand SP. the character bazzar bypasses that limit.
No it does not. The new player's characters are restricted by the same mechanics as everyone else's. You are confusing character and player.

Put another way: you say that the character bazaar can bypass the game mechanic that determines how quickly characters acquire skills. Ok, let's test that. I want to train Tippia at 5,000 SP/h (which the new scheme will let me do) rather than the ~2,600 she's currently stuck at. Could you please point me to the post or process in the bazaar that lets me do this.



And while you're there, show me where I can buy back T3 skills immediately after a welp.

Because that will be a thing for big alliance.

"Nice one guys, we actually beat the T3 blob, they're down for a few days to retrain, most likely"
>LOLISK and we're back.


you mean - you don't have multiple t3 pilots like the rest of us?

peasant.



I do, and you jest - but don't try and make out it won't be a thing overnight.

Even at the peak high end cap it will be plenty affordable for most non-trivial alliances.


That's the fundamental difference between the bazaar and this idea - one is ENTIRELY DEPENDENT on supply - the other circumnavigates it in totality. The bazaar cannot react to a shifting meta in the way this concept can.

They are fundamentally different and to think otherwise is either foolish or being deliberately obtuse.


No, no-one is going to roll along and max out for funises, but what WILL happen is bad toons/thiefs will be trivially laundered, there will be alliance SPRP for T3s, new ship classes will be instantly maxed out by older players - thus utterly destroying the core concept of "specialisation beats age" amongst various other nasties people have pointed out and hand-waving "but the bazaar" singularly fails to address a single one of these problems.


Consider - the new T2 destroyers coming - if this is in play - who do you think will have that at Vs first, the newbean, who specialised for it, or the rick old dude who just bought it?
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1709 - 2015-10-16 13:31:19 UTC
we should all make incursion alts and flood the channels with alts, carebears will start moaning then ccp will change something Pirate

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1710 - 2015-10-16 13:32:55 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Except that is not truth. Can you get 300mil sp char now? Is there any possibility to do so? NO.

Please do not go into how much it will cost to get it after the changes, it will be doable so fundamentals will be changed. And in that way the consistency and customer-service relationship.

Oh no, a fundamentalist.

Also, the customer-service in the bazaar is pretty good, I'll admit. They really have their work cut out constantly removing posts from there. Good thing SP packets won't need that busywork.


Bazaar came the way of fighting RMT, which was present since the start of the game. I do agree it is not the perfect solution but this is different topic.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1711 - 2015-10-16 13:35:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Estevan Andrard
Dave Stark wrote:
Estevan Andrard wrote:
I am starting to change my idea of supporting this or not.

As it seems, no one really cares how this affects new players or the overall perception of EVE.

If that is not really a concern for most people, I am starting to like the idea of basking in bought SP and Tony Stark style alt armies.

Think I will start to support this XD


let's face it - clueless youtube commenters think it's pay to win anyway - even after this it still won't be pay to win.

new players are going to be affected the same as the rest of us - if they dig out their credit cards or find a good way to make isk they can buy SP (just like they could before on the character bazzar).


Well, all paid games can be considered pay to win, as if you dont pay, you also dont win. Concept Wars at its best.

Those talking about pay to win are just mumbling a point of order they dont actually understand.

I am criticized when I make IRL examples for EVE issues, but I wont stop because of that.

The problem is not pay to win, as the problem of the World is not rich people circumventing the law. The problem of paid augumentation is the lack of considering what the non-target public can do with things. And the "Scientifc Determinism".

Scientific Determinism is the practice of assuming you understand a complex system by understanding its simple parts.

Pay to win is the least of worries. Actually, most people who intent to pay to win end up losing money, losing the game, and rage quitting because "there is no playing just spending". Pay to Win is just bullshit people use to excuse lack of ability to play. They blame the game for being corrupt instead of taking action to learn how to play.

The problem is the possible use of a given thing that may be acquiired for any means, be it paying real money, farming or any other easy way that has no direct link with achieving a learning step.

You may pay to be able to enter a process in which you gain something and learn something, is still a form of pay to win by idiocratic eyes, but it does not impact the overall game, as it still requires learning.

The problem is having people who have not learned in a position of benefiting. And that for me has nothing to do with elitism, has to do with the lack of preparation the player has in facing a part of the gameplay the player has not trained to in lesser challenging situations, which in turn will lead to a mass of such players demanding the "nerf", the "balance" or anyway kids today call "I cant find a solution, solve it for me".

That is the real problem. It is not how a given player reaches or passes by a given content, but the notion that after you put a lot of rookies into a veterans postion, you dumb down that postion to suit the now majority that is theres and for the lack of experience, demands lesser challenges.

It is not pay to win the problem, it is paid powers misused demanding adaptation to the minimal common denominator.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#1712 - 2015-10-16 13:35:32 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
a new player who starts playing today can't get past a few thousand SP. the character bazzar bypasses that limit.
No it does not. The new player's characters are restricted by the same mechanics as everyone else's. You are confusing character and player.

Put another way: you say that the character bazaar can bypass the game mechanic that determines how quickly characters acquire skills. Ok, let's test that. I want to train Tippia at 5,000 SP/h (which the new scheme will let me do) rather than the ~2,600 she's currently stuck at. Could you please point me to the post or process in the bazaar that lets me do this.



And while you're there, show me where I can buy back T3 skills immediately after a welp.

Because that will be a thing for big alliance.

"Nice one guys, we actually beat the T3 blob, they're down for a few days to retrain, most likely"
>LOLISK and we're back.


well this depends on how many of this packs do i need on my 180 mil sp char to cover my sp loss...

on the other hand, i just killed your 800 mil ship and you have to spend another billion on sps, so even better for me Blink

i think this is a good idea in general the numbers need a bit of mishmashing around but a good thing all over;
Malou Hashur
Enterprise Holdings
#1713 - 2015-10-16 13:36:25 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Then by all means CCP go ahead, kill the game as soon as possible so we do not have anything to hope for. Since this might be just a start of avalanche of ******** ideas.


This isnt the START of an avalanche of sh!t ideas, that started a long time ago.

CCP Philosophy ==>>

  1. If it works, break it. If it’s broken, leave it and break something else.

  2. Ignore all Forum comments that raise issues and concerns about our "features", and bring said "features" in anyway.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1714 - 2015-10-16 13:36:30 UTC
gascanu wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
a new player who starts playing today can't get past a few thousand SP. the character bazzar bypasses that limit.
No it does not. The new player's characters are restricted by the same mechanics as everyone else's. You are confusing character and player.

Put another way: you say that the character bazaar can bypass the game mechanic that determines how quickly characters acquire skills. Ok, let's test that. I want to train Tippia at 5,000 SP/h (which the new scheme will let me do) rather than the ~2,600 she's currently stuck at. Could you please point me to the post or process in the bazaar that lets me do this.



And while you're there, show me where I can buy back T3 skills immediately after a welp.

Because that will be a thing for big alliance.

"Nice one guys, we actually beat the T3 blob, they're down for a few days to retrain, most likely"
>LOLISK and we're back.


well this depends on how many of this packs do i need on my 180 mil sp char to cover my sp loss...

on the other hand, i just killed your 800 mil ship and you have to spend another billion on sps, so even better for me Blink

i think this is a good idea in general the numbers need a bit of mishmashing around but a good thing all over;



At worst it will be 5. More likely 4 and a very short train unless it is a massive CTA.
Mynxee
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#1715 - 2015-10-16 13:36:37 UTC
After considering everyone's opinions in this entire thread, several blog posts, Twitter discussion, and reddit, I've had a change of heart about skill trading.

tl;dr: Go for it, it won't impact me personally, will help newer players become more invested in the game, and could be a positive for CCP's bottom line. Had to let go my CSM5 baggage to arrive at that opinion though.

Blog post is here.

Lost in space, looking for sigs...

Blog: Cloaky Wanderer
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1716 - 2015-10-16 13:41:37 UTC
Eternal Bob wrote:
It allows the buyer to bypass the time spent accumulating SP, which is what the proposed idea also does.
No. The proposed idea lets characters bypass the in-game mechanic that determines how fast characters can acquire SP. The character bazaar changes which out-of-game player has access to which character. Since the players exist outside of the game, there is no game mechanic that restricts what characters they can use — at most, that's falls under the out-of-game EULA.

So no, the bazaar does not in any way, shape, or form bypass game mechanics.

Quote:
As does the proposed idea.
…except that the proposed idea lets you bypass the game mechanics in how those SP are accumulated.

Quote:
But it doesn't allow sellers to train skills faster than mechanics allow.
Sure it does. It just doesn't make much sense for them to make use of that mechanic since there's little gain in it for them.

So there will indeed be a magical SP production that simply couldn't exist before. Rather than being a serial, singular process contained within a single character, it becomes a trivially parallelisable distributed process — one that can create SP at a vastly higher pace than is currently possible.

Dave Stark wrote:
I'm not confusing it. it's simply irrelevant.
Wrong on both accounts.
It is only the character side that is relevant because it is the only one that is restricted in its SP acquisition. This idea lets you bypass this restriction, wholly unlike how the bazaar operates.

Quote:
funfact; this new service doesn't do that either. tippia will still be training at 2600 sp/hour,
…plus another 2,400 SP/h from my SP farm, or a total of 5,000 SP per hour. If I choose to pay for it.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1717 - 2015-10-16 13:41:38 UTC
next up...aurum for jump fatigue steroids Big smile

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1718 - 2015-10-16 13:44:29 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
next up...aurum for jump fatigue steroids Big smile


Next on New Eden Store

**Race** Donation Fund - Earn you +1 Standing rise with **Race**

Then we know it is the end of times.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1719 - 2015-10-16 13:45:30 UTC
Estevan Andrard wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
next up...aurum for jump fatigue steroids Big smile


Next on New Eden Store

**Race** Donation Fund - Earn you +1 Standing rise with **Race**

Then we know it is the end of times.


the possibilities are endless Cool

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#1720 - 2015-10-16 13:49:22 UTC
afkalt wrote:
gascanu wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
a new player who starts playing today can't get past a few thousand SP. the character bazzar bypasses that limit.
No it does not. The new player's characters are restricted by the same mechanics as everyone else's. You are confusing character and player.

Put another way: you say that the character bazaar can bypass the game mechanic that determines how quickly characters acquire skills. Ok, let's test that. I want to train Tippia at 5,000 SP/h (which the new scheme will let me do) rather than the ~2,600 she's currently stuck at. Could you please point me to the post or process in the bazaar that lets me do this.



And while you're there, show me where I can buy back T3 skills immediately after a welp.

Because that will be a thing for big alliance.

"Nice one guys, we actually beat the T3 blob, they're down for a few days to retrain, most likely"
>LOLISK and we're back.


well this depends on how many of this packs do i need on my 180 mil sp char to cover my sp loss...

on the other hand, i just killed your 800 mil ship and you have to spend another billion on sps, so even better for me Blink

i think this is a good idea in general the numbers need a bit of mishmashing around but a good thing all over;



At worst it will be 5. More likely 4 and a very short train unless it is a massive CTA.


depending how much this packs will cost, let's say ~500 mil a high sp char will need to spend 2-2.5 bil plus the ship cost; i think not many alliances can cover that on a day to day base, a fleet of 50 ppl will need around 150 bil- that a titan and a half