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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Arja Archangel
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1681 - 2015-10-16 12:57:16 UTC
Sounds good! Supporting this! ;D
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1682 - 2015-10-16 12:59:24 UTC
Arja Archangel wrote:
Sounds good! Supporting this! ;D

Are you relatively new? I don't want to assume based on the corp/alliance, but I'm told that if you are this new option will seriously harm you.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Miss Hello Kitty
We Have Lost the Game
#1683 - 2015-10-16 13:01:17 UTC
I've used the character bazaar before and if implemented, I'm sure I'd use SP if the price wasn't prohibitive. I really cont care a whole lot either way if it's done or not, I'm sure people will adapt to it. I don't see how something like this would attract new players in and of itself, but I can see them buying SP if they (or older players) wanted to skill up faster for any number of reasons (corp/ally doctrine changes...etc)

Sort of off topic, but here's an idea if CCP really wants to make some money without changing the client at all: Put stuff in your eve store that isnt junk and way overpriced. I'm talking about T-shirts, water bottles, keychains, mugs...etc. CCP gets money from people like me who like wearing stuff like this, gets free advertising from me and might just gain a few new players by asking me what EVE Online is or what is that Rifter model on my desk at work.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1684 - 2015-10-16 13:01:27 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
So you just quoted the part where it says it favors new players and challenged me for stating the same with additional comment that it will not work. Thank you for making your own previous posts looking dump and finally taking away chances that anyone can give some seriousness to your posts. And of course thank you for such great meaningful contribution.

ROFL.


actually i quoted the reason why there's diminishing returns - and it quite clearly states it isn't for new players it's to protect the prestige of having an older character.

if you want to make random connections that's cool - but the fact remains that nowhere in the devblog does ccp state this is for new players.

you can say it was intended for new players all you want - however there's not a single statement that supports that assertion.


Let me bold that once more for you. Beside the obvious mechanism which does it.

favors new players

or you need more?

favors new players
favors new players
favors new players

Please, either stop trolling or start to add some real contribution to the discussion. kktnxbye


favours =/= is designed for.

learn english, kkthnxbye


Aha so it is designed for those who it does not favor? Amazing logic. For a sake of argument let`s say that this nonsense you said is true.

So CCP is changing the fundamentals of their game, fundamentals of multi million usd/eur business, to provide option to some people who did mistakes in skilling their chars or need just some more sp to make their dreams come true. Company is changing fundamentals of such business to gain couple of thousands usd/eur more or to make 1% of player base happier?

If you cannot realize why that is ******** then I really give up.

Then by all means CCP go ahead, kill the game as soon as possible so we do not have anything to hope for. Since this might be just a start of avalanche of ******** ideas.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know

Dave kazkade
Lethal Devotion
#1685 - 2015-10-16 13:02:01 UTC
Dave kazkade wrote:
First off I would like to say even though I do like the idea that ccp is trying to make the game allot easier for new players to get into, I am not for the idea that skill points can be something that can be bought or sold on the market. I don't have to say the reason, as everyone has stated allot of possibilities why this will cause more harm than good.

Now I will like to suggest a idea, instead of making sp tradeable, how about making character trading allot easier to know about, implement it as a game feature. Like a market place that can be opened in the game, rather than A forum section that people have to look for to find. Also, implement the ability for freshly traded characters to have the name changed, how ever limit this to were players cannot fake a name change that own the account or are abusing the name change system in a way to reuse a character for corp theft.

Also if you want to make the game more fun for new players, implement a way for them to test ships they cannot fly, like a arena or something interesting to show them how fun the game can be when they get good sp.


Another thing, make it to were all new players have access to the advanced cerebral accelerator, this is another item that even though can be traded for isk on the market, I find that the only way for new players to get there hands on it is to buy the (expansion packs) online, which I see it as a "if you pay us money we will make the game easier for you to get into" this is a no no. so please remove it. Also, remove remaps, and make all the stats maxed and keep the implants. Reduce the amount of time it takes to train skills.

And if you want to find a way to introduce more players onto eve? Work on project legion again, The only reason I see why you guys decided to stop working on it is because the dust 514 community was upset because (I don't have a gaming pc) or something stupid like that, supporting a game on a outdated console like the ps3 is a very dumb and stupid idea. Who cares what the dust community thinks, allot of them don't give you any money what so ever, and they just play the game, allot of them don't even know what eve is, but know how to log onto the forums. So. long story short, you want more players of eve? Port dust 514 to pc and add allot of features to it, like being able to manufacture goods for legion players, just something more to interact with the eve universe than rather (oh I push f1 now i get pew pew on planets im so cool, this is boring)

Now that I have given my suggest to CCP what i think should change I will like to now start giving my input to the players of this game. If you do what I am about to describe below, then shame on you, you are the reason this game is going to ****, and you should feel bad everytime you suggest a way to fix the game, you are not helping.

First off for the players that come onto threads like this and state "Im going to unsub now because this is a bad idea" This thread was made to give feedback to ccp to tell them how you feel about the changes, it doesn't mean that they will do it. So far from what I have seen, the CSM says no, and the community says no. So it will most likely will not happen. But when you start to say that eve is dieing and you threaten CCP with the fact that you are going to stop supplying them with money, you are a good reason why this game is going to ****, because if you don't get what you want, you will stop giving money to the people who try to make the game for interesting for new people.

And for those players who say "the game is dieing" or something related to that, you are not helping, when you put this information out there for everyone to see, how do you think a new player feels about seeing a 3+ year old pilot in a game saying its dieing, do you think they will invest the time and money into a game that since you all are saying "its dieing" they think that ccp will pull the plug one day? Yeah, you are not helping, everytime you state this, you make a new player think the game that you enjoy playing is a ******* waist of time and **** you for even saying osmething remotely close to this.

I love this game as much as you guys do. Probably even more.
But when you say the game is dieing you make new players think it is a waist of time, that they shouldn't even train skills in it.

When ccp comes along and ask the community about a idea they had, they are asking you guys if it is okay to implement it. So far you guys have made great responses to CCP, but actually unsubscribing is not the way to change ccp's mind, you are killing the game by doing this.


I put allot of thought into this, and I have waisted a long time writing this.

tl;dr:

SP trading is no no, make other ways for new players to enjoy the game without real money

Remove remaps and make it to were all skills train at same pace, with the option of implants still

Resume development on project legion, there are allot of FPS players on PC, and tons of them will love the idea, dust 514 community is salty, and ps3 is a outdated piece of ****. stop supporting it.

Rant about how players should stop saying that "eve is a dieing game" as this causes more players to not even want to spend time in it because they think it will die because all these old players are saying so.




After reading into it more, and thinking about how this will make the game better for new players, I have decided I am for the SP trading rather than against it, I still stand on my other points made in this post.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1686 - 2015-10-16 13:03:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Don ZOLA
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
"supporters" have no counter arguments for those.


there's not really a lot to counter.

nothing about this new system is new or interesting - you've always been able to bypass the passive training system by buying/selling characters. now you just do it in sp directly.


There are plenty of things to counter. When you see proposed ideas there are always arguments pro & cons. We lack those pro arguments here as " great innovation, way to go ccp" is not really an argument.

And when making such decisions beside pro & cons you need to take possible side effects in the consideration. And there are plenty in this case. Luckily, we can hope there are people smarter and more analytical than you working for CCP.

edit: It is new, they are changing the fundamentals of the game, causing inconsistency in it. I understand that you cannot comprehend why is that not good :)

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know

Banirtal Cadelanne
Extropic Industries
The Initiative.
#1687 - 2015-10-16 13:04:20 UTC
Crashys wrote:
Banirtal Cadelanne wrote:
Love the idea! Go for it CCP!!


Why only the CCP sponsored goonies love the idea of spending ISK given by CCP on their 'more than proven' aid to help Papa Mittani be something in the game?? Is it because CCP gave you (and continue to give) a perfect game mechanics adjusted to your needs??

LOL

I see EVE as 'Goonies Enterprise' only.

I wish i was being paid like Mittani is by CCP... :(



Actually I am worse than a goonie.....I rent from them
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1688 - 2015-10-16 13:04:40 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Estevan Andrard wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Tippia wrote:
I care that you are able to pay to bypass a core game mechanic.


which is what the character bazzar has been doing for people since whenever it was introduced.

i'm glad you're fine with all of this, then.


Same logic as plex. With the bazaar, at least someone HAD to endure the training, all the way. HAD to think about it, elaborate it.

With skill sculpting, you not only able to put someone else's skill points freely and such, but you can also model your own char by "liposculpting" your skill pool.

In the bazaar you cannot circumvent the time by agregating skill points from multiple chars in one.

By means of skills modeling, you actually can put several chars to train in order to make a triple, ten fold, hundred fold, skill queue which then you just pull up to one single char.

That is impossible using the bazaar.


+1

Why this is so hard for some to understand is beyond me. PLEX and the character bazaar are one thing, but the "skill sculpting" is another entirely.

CCP should take this thread as a warning of the reaction to come if they go ahead with this, not everyone reads forums/reddit/whatever.


Ok, all fine and dandy that you will be able to pour SP into a single character.

However, even if we disregard the differences between this new system and the char bazaar (which IMO there is virtually none whatsoever) there is still that little matter of one versus many. So what if you can max out a character in no-time assuming you have the wallet to do so. In the end, what will it REALLY matter? I mean, in all these years EVE has consistently encouraged people to use alts whenever possible for the sole reason of multi-tasking.

It doesn't matter in the slightest if a single character is maxed out. It will still be unable to multi-task. Sure, it can do everything from mining to whatever just perfectly but....so what?

Furthermore, who cares is a complete newbie gets a maxed out character? The only thing that will happen is that said player will just lose expensive ships - something that seem to happen more often than not with new wallet-warriors with 0 actual experience. Isn't that kinda what players would want to see more of?

All in all I say that this new system is a worse deal than the current bazaar system for the sole reason that SP are actually destroyed in the process.

All in all what CCP has to do is simply make sure that the efficiency of this new system decreases exponentially as a characters SP decreases. That way it will be a system that is aimed at young capsuleers and be utterly worthless for anyone past say...150 mil SP or so.

Frankly this community has become quite something. All these entitled whiners who almost actively seek to see this game shut down.
Dave stark
#1689 - 2015-10-16 13:06:42 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Aha so it is designed for those who it does not favor?


it's designed for everyone

"By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone."

if you took a moment to read the devblog, that would be fantastic.
Dave stark
#1690 - 2015-10-16 13:08:37 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
"supporters" have no counter arguments for those.


there's not really a lot to counter.

nothing about this new system is new or interesting - you've always been able to bypass the passive training system by buying/selling characters. now you just do it in sp directly.


There are plenty of things to counter. When you see proposed ideas there are always arguments pro & cons. We lack those pro arguments here as " great innovation, way to go ccp" is not really an argument.

And when making such decisions beside pro & cons you need to take possible side effects in the consideration. And there are plenty in this case. Luckily, we can hope there are people smarter and more analytical than you working for CCP.

edit: It is new, they are changing the fundamentals of the game, causing inconsistency in it. I understand that you cannot comprehend why is that not good :)


except the fundamentals really aren't being changed - anyone who wants a huge sp boost can already get one.

the fact it already exists means there's very little pros/cons of this idea. it already exists, just in a more convoluted form.

pretending this is anything other than a quality of life change is laughable.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1691 - 2015-10-16 13:10:49 UTC
Miss Hello Kitty wrote:
CCP gets money from people like me who like wearing stuff like this, gets free advertising from me and might just gain a few new players by asking me what EVE Online is or what is that Rifter model on my desk at work.

Aww, how much is a Rifter model? I'm assuming this is a thing they already sell...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Elfaen Ethenwe
Effluvium.
#1692 - 2015-10-16 13:11:30 UTC
Why not bump the starting SP for young players to 1 million, have it free to spend how they wish, OR alloctaed for them depending on preference.

Then leave the character bazaar alone.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1693 - 2015-10-16 13:11:54 UTC
Banirtal Cadelanne wrote:
Crashys wrote:
Banirtal Cadelanne wrote:
Love the idea! Go for it CCP!!

Why only the CCP sponsored goonies love the idea of spending ISK given by CCP on their 'more than proven' aid to help Papa Mittani be something in the game?? Is it because CCP gave you (and continue to give) a perfect game mechanics adjusted to your needs??

LOL

I see EVE as 'Goonies Enterprise' only.

I wish i was being paid like Mittani is by CCP... :(

Actually I am worse than a goonie.....I rent from them

Now now... it's all part of co-prospering on the farms and fields ccp gave moa to burn. Haha moa...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Wendrika Hydreiga
#1694 - 2015-10-16 13:12:21 UTC
Banirtal Cadelanne wrote:
Actually I am worse than a goonie.....I rent from them


The horror! Have you no decency?!
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1695 - 2015-10-16 13:12:40 UTC
I am starting to change my idea of supporting this or not.

As it seems, no one really cares how this affects new players or the overall perception of EVE.

If that is not really a concern for most people, I am starting to like the idea of basking in bought SP and Tony Stark style alt armies.

Think I will start to support this XD

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?

Elfaen Ethenwe
Effluvium.
#1696 - 2015-10-16 13:13:45 UTC
The Future:
A (insert alliance name here) Broadcast:

Tomorrow, CCP are going to boost Nightmares to be the greatest thing ever. Please ensure everyone has their skills configured to exploit the meta as MUCH as possible to ensure that we remain dominant. Skill points are still available via alliance forums so if you don't have them yet be sure to cough up your pennies. There is no excuse in modern eve to not have exactly the ship we ask you to fly so be there on time!



If you honestly think this wont change eve, then you are dumb. The current system is bottlenecked by the existence of the characters in the bazaar. Sue you can find a character atm to fit every need but thay are upwards of 40-60bil isk. They do not impact on a wider scale (if they did you'd have all bought ratting ishtar alts for ratting by now) and it takes a long time for the current meta characters to be trained up and then hit the market. This natural bottleneck stops one entity theory crafting something the day the patch notes are released and steam rolling eve the day after patch day.
Dave stark
#1697 - 2015-10-16 13:15:49 UTC
Estevan Andrard wrote:
I am starting to change my idea of supporting this or not.

As it seems, no one really cares how this affects new players or the overall perception of EVE.

If that is not really a concern for most people, I am starting to like the idea of basking in bought SP and Tony Stark style alt armies.

Think I will start to support this XD


let's face it - clueless youtube commenters think it's pay to win anyway - even after this it still won't be pay to win.

new players are going to be affected the same as the rest of us - if they dig out their credit cards or find a good way to make isk they can buy SP (just like they could before on the character bazzar).
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1698 - 2015-10-16 13:17:54 UTC
What's next?
Removing subs and just paying for SP?
PvP arenas?
Queing for group DEDs?
This change is nothing for the players, it's a big change for you CCP. New players still not be catching up, unless they pay you...

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1699 - 2015-10-16 13:21:27 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
"supporters" have no counter arguments for those.


there's not really a lot to counter.

nothing about this new system is new or interesting - you've always been able to bypass the passive training system by buying/selling characters. now you just do it in sp directly.


There are plenty of things to counter. When you see proposed ideas there are always arguments pro & cons. We lack those pro arguments here as " great innovation, way to go ccp" is not really an argument.

And when making such decisions beside pro & cons you need to take possible side effects in the consideration. And there are plenty in this case. Luckily, we can hope there are people smarter and more analytical than you working for CCP.

edit: It is new, they are changing the fundamentals of the game, causing inconsistency in it. I understand that you cannot comprehend why is that not good :)


except the fundamentals really aren't being changed - anyone who wants a huge sp boost can already get one.

the fact it already exists means there's very little pros/cons of this idea. it already exists, just in a more convoluted form.

pretending this is anything other than a quality of life change is laughable.


Except that is not truth. Can you get 300mil sp char now? Is there any possibility to do so? NO.

Please do not go into how much it will cost to get it after the changes, it will be doable so fundamentals will be changed. And in that way the consistency and customer-service relationship.


There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1700 - 2015-10-16 13:22:05 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
a new player who starts playing today can't get past a few thousand SP. the character bazzar bypasses that limit.
No it does not. The new player's characters are restricted by the same mechanics as everyone else's. You are confusing character and player.

Put another way: you say that the character bazaar can bypass the game mechanic that determines how quickly characters acquire skills. Ok, let's test that. I want to train Tippia at 5,000 SP/h (which the new scheme will let me do) rather than the ~2,600 she's currently stuck at. Could you please point me to the post or process in the bazaar that lets me do this.



And while you're there, show me where I can buy back T3 skills immediately after a welp.

Because that will be a thing for big alliance.

"Nice one guys, we actually beat the T3 blob, they're down for a few days to retrain, most likely"
>LOLISK and we're back.