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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1661 - 2015-10-16 12:49:00 UTC
Estevan Andrard wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Tippia wrote:
I care that you are able to pay to bypass a core game mechanic.


which is what the character bazzar has been doing for people since whenever it was introduced.

i'm glad you're fine with all of this, then.


Same logic as plex. With the bazaar, at least someone HAD to endure the training, all the way. HAD to think about it, elaborate it.

With skill sculpting, you not only able to put someone else's skill points freely and such, but you can also model your own char by "liposculpting" your skill pool.

In the bazaar you cannot circumvent the time by agregating skill points from multiple chars in one.

By means of skills modeling, you actually can put several chars to train in order to make a triple, ten fold, hundred fold, skill queue which then you just pull up to one single char.

That is impossible using the bazaar.


+1

Why this is so hard for some to understand is beyond me. PLEX and the character bazaar are one thing, but the "skill sculpting" is another entirely.

CCP should take this thread as a warning of the reaction to come if they go ahead with this, not everyone reads forums/reddit/whatever.
Banirtal Cadelanne
Extropic Industries
The Initiative.
#1662 - 2015-10-16 12:49:27 UTC
Love the idea! Go for it CCP!!
Eternal Bob
Doomheim
#1663 - 2015-10-16 12:50:01 UTC
Tippia wrote:
You just proved that you do not understand how the character bazaar works.
No. The bazaar does not allow you to bypass core game mechanics.


It allows the buyer to bypass the time spent accumulating SP, which is what the proposed idea also does.

Tippia wrote:
In fact, it currently requires those game mechanics to have been at work


As does the proposed idea.

Tippia wrote:
There are no two ways about it: this idea lets you train skill many times faster than the mechanics for training skills allow


But it doesn't allow sellers to train skills faster than mechanics allow. The sum total of skills distributed amongst player characters will not change. There will be no magical SP generation. All that will happen is that players will be able to trade their time and ISK in a more mutually beneficial way.

Biomassing to free a char slot.
Alladir
Alladarium
#1664 - 2015-10-16 12:50:37 UTC
Basically argument of most haters in this thread :

So I've been playing EVE since before space even existed, well before China started farming WoW gold in the 1800s. It's always touched me in places I never expected. I often sit and think how much headway I could make in life if it wasn't for internet spaceships, but the ship spinning alone brings joy and meaning to my life. But then this new thing was introduced to the game. This new thing will completely break and ruin the game! In the past, I did the old thing in the old way, and that was fine. I did it, I was fine, and nothing went wrong. But now there's this new thing... why?!

There are many reasons why this new thing will break the game.

  • The equipment we farmed will have different value now.
  • The work we did will be easier or harder for subsequent people to do.
  • It is different.
  • It is not the same as it was before.
  • The way it was before is how I want it to remain.
  • It is new.
  • I don't like it.


These are just the things that come to mind after barely glancing through the first paragraph of the devpost. But, enough of that. CCPlease, can we please stop this new thing before it's too late? I can tell you all about why the new thing is bad. I did the old thing day in, day out, and I was better at it than all of you. I had Mastery VI of the old thing. If you think my being too used to the old thing is why I dislike the new thing, you are sadly mistaken! For I have like Mastery VIIXIV of the new thing, too. Even though it's new, I'm still better at it than all of you, even the people who are better at it than I am, and I've been better at it since before I was born. But, still, the old thing was better, and this new thing is bad, and wrong, and badly wrong.

Devs, CSMs, ISBs, IPAs, please hear my pleas. This new thing will change the game from how it was before, and this cannot be allowed to happen. Stop, now. I know you'll listen to me, because you always listen to me—and only me—because we've known each other all our lives, even when we didn't know it. We used to do the thing (not the new thing, the old one) by the place, and you once told me, "Nez, your three semesters of Game Development at the community college give you more knowledge and experience than all of us together, and we'll let you veto any changes you don't like." Well, that didn't happen. You went behind my back, and you did it to my face.
Anyway. I'm not bitter, though I will unsubscribe my eleventy accounts at the drop of a hat if this thing isn't changed. I just want to be clear: I am basically the unofficial CSM chair with my dank skills, this new thing is bad, and the old thing is the only way that anything should ever be done.

(not mine, just sharing)

While i appreciate ppl who actually argument their point why is it bad, it would be nice for more ppl to do the same instead of "QQ Eve is dead, Unsubbing"
Joffy Aulx-Gao
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#1665 - 2015-10-16 12:50:48 UTC
I'm not a fan of this change.

1. This will be abused in large alliances where they just plex lots of farming alts and give their members all skills to new doctrines, this will mean big alliances will get even more dominant.

2. This will most likely make PLEX prices even higher and we certainly don't need that, we need more ppl not less with more alts!

If CCP needs to get more Money then they need a bigger sale on PLEX to get Price to drop to below 1b Again, many has a hard time to keep playing without grinding for ISK, EVE Online is still a game not a job.

I'm a lowsec pirate and diplo of A Band Apart.
Dave Stark
#1666 - 2015-10-16 12:50:54 UTC
Tippia wrote:
You are confusing character and player.

Put another way: you say that the character bazaar can bypass the game mechanic that determines how quickly characters acquire skills. Ok, let's test that. I want to train Tippia at 5,000 SP/h (which the new scheme will let me do) rather than the ~2,600 she's currently stuck at. Could you please point me to the post or process in the bazaar that lets me do this.


i'm not confusing it. it's simply irrelevant.

funfact; this new service doesn't do that either. tippia will still be training at 2600 sp/hour, you'll just have a higher SP total. the new service directly injects sp, it doesn't speed up training.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1667 - 2015-10-16 12:51:02 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
a new player who starts playing today can't get past a few thousand SP. the character bazzar bypasses that limit.
No it does not. The new player's characters are restricted by the same mechanics as everyone else's. You are confusing character and player.

Put another way: you say that the character bazaar can bypass the game mechanic that determines how quickly characters acquire skills. Ok, let's test that. I want to train Tippia at 5,000 SP/h (which the new scheme will let me do) rather than the ~2,600 she's currently stuck at. Could you please point me to the post or process in the bazaar that lets me do this.

It's always funny to see people who've sold the character their forum/jabber account was named after.

They should've been more attached.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1668 - 2015-10-16 12:51:15 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
So you just quoted the part where it says it favors new players and challenged me for stating the same with additional comment that it will not work. Thank you for making your own previous posts looking dump and finally taking away chances that anyone can give some seriousness to your posts. And of course thank you for such great meaningful contribution.

ROFL.


actually i quoted the reason why there's diminishing returns - and it quite clearly states it isn't for new players it's to protect the prestige of having an older character.

if you want to make random connections that's cool - but the fact remains that nowhere in the devblog does ccp state this is for new players.

you can say it was intended for new players all you want - however there's not a single statement that supports that assertion.


Let me bold that once more for you. Beside the obvious mechanism which does it.

favors new players

or you need more?

favors new players
favors new players
favors new players

Please, either stop trolling or start to add some real contribution to the discussion. kktnxbye

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Crashys
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1669 - 2015-10-16 12:51:31 UTC
Banirtal Cadelanne wrote:
Love the idea! Go for it CCP!!


Why only the CCP sponsored goonies love the idea of spending ISK given by CCP on their 'more than proven' aid to help Papa Mittani be something in the game?? Is it because CCP gave you (and continue to give) a perfect game mechanics adjusted to your needs??

LOL

I see EVE as 'Goonies Enterprise' only.

I wish i was being paid like Mittani is by CCP... :(
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1670 - 2015-10-16 12:52:35 UTC
Alladir wrote:
There are many reasons why this new thing will break the game.

  • The equipment we farmed will have different value now.
  • The work we did will be easier or harder for subsequent people to do.
  • It is different.
  • It is not the same as it was before.
  • The way it was before is how I want it to remain.
  • It is new.
  • I don't like it.

This is amazing.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Dave Stark
#1671 - 2015-10-16 12:52:38 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
So you just quoted the part where it says it favors new players and challenged me for stating the same with additional comment that it will not work. Thank you for making your own previous posts looking dump and finally taking away chances that anyone can give some seriousness to your posts. And of course thank you for such great meaningful contribution.

ROFL.


actually i quoted the reason why there's diminishing returns - and it quite clearly states it isn't for new players it's to protect the prestige of having an older character.

if you want to make random connections that's cool - but the fact remains that nowhere in the devblog does ccp state this is for new players.

you can say it was intended for new players all you want - however there's not a single statement that supports that assertion.


Let me bold that once more for you. Beside the obvious mechanism which does it.

favors new players

or you need more?

favors new players
favors new players
favors new players

Please, either stop trolling or start to add some real contribution to the discussion. kktnxbye


favours =/= is designed for.

learn english, kkthnxbye
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#1672 - 2015-10-16 12:53:07 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
which is what the character bazzar has been doing for people since whenever it was introduced.
…except that no game mechanics are being bypassed by the bazaar.

Again, I know you are smarter than this, so just stop playing stupid.

I don't know, perhaps he really is as stupid as he is displaying himself to be in this thread.
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1673 - 2015-10-16 12:53:41 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Yeah, as the liquidation has a trivial cost.... what's the cost again, did they tell us yet?

Logical deduction will tell you that this will clearly be affordable if this is meant to be designed to help new players.

You are familiar with CCP's microtransaction price policy right? My bet is on it being 1/2 - full PLEX per widget just to create the packet, and I reckon I'm underpricing. Trivial price... yeah Big smile

Well putting it as AUR does allow them to ... ah what is it...

"tweak knobs" as it were... but then again doing that might be too painful, increasing or decreasing the cost huh?

You are also familiar with CCP's stellar history in swift and agile knob twisting right? It only took 11 months til the first sqeaky turn of the jump fatigue knob after all. Light-speed :whoosh: Pirate
Dave Stark
#1674 - 2015-10-16 12:53:42 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Alladir wrote:
There are many reasons why this new thing will break the game.

  • The equipment we farmed will have different value now.
  • The work we did will be easier or harder for subsequent people to do.
  • It is different.
  • It is not the same as it was before.
  • The way it was before is how I want it to remain.
  • It is new.
  • I don't like it.

This is amazing.



copy and paste from reddit usually is, which was also copy and pasted from somewhere else.
Dave Stark
#1675 - 2015-10-16 12:54:34 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
which is what the character bazzar has been doing for people since whenever it was introduced.
…except that no game mechanics are being bypassed by the bazaar.

Again, I know you are smarter than this, so just stop playing stupid.

I don't know, perhaps he really is as stupid as he is displaying himself to be in this thread.


i'm not the one claiming this new service increases sp/hour. the devblog clearly states it injects unallocated sp.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1676 - 2015-10-16 12:55:18 UTC
Alladir wrote:
Basically argument of most haters in this thread :

So I've been playing EVE since before space even existed, well before China started farming WoW gold in the 1800s. It's always touched me in places I never expected. I often sit and think how much headway I could make in life if it wasn't for internet spaceships, but the ship spinning alone brings joy and meaning to my life. But then this new thing was introduced to the game. This new thing will completely break and ruin the game! In the past, I did the old thing in the old way, and that was fine. I did it, I was fine, and nothing went wrong. But now there's this new thing... why?!

There are many reasons why this new thing will break the game.

  • The equipment we farmed will have different value now.
  • The work we did will be easier or harder for subsequent people to do.
  • It is different.
  • It is not the same as it was before.
  • The way it was before is how I want it to remain.
  • It is new.
  • I don't like it.


These are just the things that come to mind after barely glancing through the first paragraph of the devpost. But, enough of that. CCPlease, can we please stop this new thing before it's too late? I can tell you all about why the new thing is bad. I did the old thing day in, day out, and I was better at it than all of you. I had Mastery VI of the old thing. If you think my being too used to the old thing is why I dislike the new thing, you are sadly mistaken! For I have like Mastery VIIXIV of the new thing, too. Even though it's new, I'm still better at it than all of you, even the people who are better at it than I am, and I've been better at it since before I was born. But, still, the old thing was better, and this new thing is bad, and wrong, and badly wrong.

Devs, CSMs, ISBs, IPAs, please hear my pleas. This new thing will change the game from how it was before, and this cannot be allowed to happen. Stop, now. I know you'll listen to me, because you always listen to me—and only me—because we've known each other all our lives, even when we didn't know it. We used to do the thing (not the new thing, the old one) by the place, and you once told me, "Nez, your three semesters of Game Development at the community college give you more knowledge and experience than all of us together, and we'll let you veto any changes you don't like." Well, that didn't happen. You went behind my back, and you did it to my face.
Anyway. I'm not bitter, though I will unsubscribe my eleventy accounts at the drop of a hat if this thing isn't changed. I just want to be clear: I am basically the unofficial CSM chair with my dank skills, this new thing is bad, and the old thing is the only way that anything should ever be done.

(not mine, just sharing)

While i appreciate ppl who actually argument their point why is it bad, it would be nice for more ppl to do the same instead of "QQ Eve is dead, Unsubbing"


Actually there are plenty of arguments around, if you read whole topic you will find them out, pretty much the most of side effects is summed up and "supporters" have no counter arguments for those.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1677 - 2015-10-16 12:55:24 UTC
Crashys wrote:
Banirtal Cadelanne wrote:
Love the idea! Go for it CCP!!


Why only the CCP sponsored goonies love the idea of spending ISK given by CCP on their 'more than proven' aid to help Papa Mittani be something in the game?? Is it because CCP gave you (and continue to give) a perfect game mechanics adjusted to your needs??

LOL

I see EVE as 'Goonies Enterprise' only.

I wish i was being paid like Mittani is by CCP... :(


Yeah, I want to help those newbies be literally damping you on day 1 rather than I think like day 7 or something.

500,000 SP is like a week at max training, but for a newbie without those options (and while we give out implants, they do get exploded or make them just sit out a week, and then another week, etc etc) it might be worth, I don't know 2 weeks if you consider they need various skills and won't be optimally remapped for all of them as well.

So yeah, it's about perpetuating our power by pushing the agenda of our newbies.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1678 - 2015-10-16 12:56:46 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Yeah, as the liquidation has a trivial cost.... what's the cost again, did they tell us yet?

Logical deduction will tell you that this will clearly be affordable if this is meant to be designed to help new players.

You are familiar with CCP's microtransaction price policy right? My bet is on it being 1/2 - full PLEX per widget just to create the packet, and I reckon I'm underpricing. Trivial price... yeah Big smile

Well putting it as AUR does allow them to ... ah what is it...

"tweak knobs" as it were... but then again doing that might be too painful, increasing or decreasing the cost huh?

You are also familiar with CCP's stellar history in swift and agile knob twisting right? It only took 11 months til the first sqeaky turn of the jump fatigue knob after all. Light-speed :whoosh: Pirate

Was that because the person at the knob is... ah... elsewhere?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1679 - 2015-10-16 12:56:47 UTC
As the thread grows it seems somethings must be repeated.

Earlier in this thread we built upon a very simple presmisse all blobers know and love:

- Anything that benefits new players, benefits veterans making new alts by the potency of how many alts they can make.

- Anything that benefits single player game play benefits group gameplay by the potency of number of players.

I say potency, not sum, because two alts, and further more two players, are not only twice as powerful as one, but individual two players cannot achieve what combined two players can. Alts follow the same pattern.

Improving with ill conceived ideas the new single player gameplay can improve by the 1000 potency the power of multiple dozen account holders that may become just too powerful to fall.

That has happened in the past, that will happen again. That is the reason some of the most powerful groups in EVE are the most powerful groups in EVE to begin with.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
Dave Stark
#1680 - 2015-10-16 12:57:09 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
"supporters" have no counter arguments for those.


there's not really a lot to counter.

nothing about this new system is new or interesting - you've always been able to bypass the passive training system by buying/selling characters. now you just do it in sp directly.