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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Author
jaqwith
Tiefbauamt
#1541 - 2015-10-16 10:13:15 UTC
I got very mixed feelings about this.

It would be nice to reallocate skill points, but I don't like the idea of trading them. Just give every character the option to deallocate eg. 1M SP/year and increase that for traded chars.

A better integration of the Character Bazaar seems a good thing. To see a char's previous trades in a info tab would certainly be helpful.

The part I dislike most though is that the only limit for this activity seems to be ISK/AUR/money. There should be some time limit as well in my opinion – either on extractor use or affected skill points.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1542 - 2015-10-16 10:13:59 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:

Quoted cost from previous pages:

3. The cost of buying SP will become increasing expensive. To give some numbers to this. To get a 20 million SP character with the current method I'd have to buy 22,750,000 SP to inject. That is, I have to buy 13.75% more SP than I am attempting to end up at. If I want to jump to 50 million SP I have to actually buy 60,250,000 SP or about 21% SP over where I'll end up. One poster blathered on about how there'd be all these characters with 600 million SP. Just to get to 500 million SP one would have to buy 3.495 billion SP. Yes, with a fracking 'B'...billion. So STFU about that ****.

So its not really going to be very economical to max level characters, once you get to the certain sp its going to be more viable buying a character from the bazaar


I agree with that. But I never mentioned it as a key issue. How about you read this and then comment : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6101499#post6101499


i agree with all the alts stuff after all 3 new alts and you in theory you have to pay for another subscription, maybe ccp see it like that and realise they can make more money from the whole playerbase not just new players.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Ghengis Khuan
Primal Instinct Inc.
The Initiative.
#1543 - 2015-10-16 10:14:59 UTC
I can tell you for sure, if you do this "pay to win" thing, i'll cancel all my subscriptions and quit playing for good. This is not EVE, this is something else. I'm defending my position telling you that you are going to blow up the game for good. EVE was unique a time ago, it is not anymore with all the changes you've made. If you proceed with this ideas and decisions, the game witch took more than a decade to develop will fall and your servers will get empty. So, go ahead...

Affff....

Nillus K'varr
Trident Nebula Corporation
#1544 - 2015-10-16 10:15:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Nillus K'varr
I thought you were against RMT. But this screams 'farmer' like no other.

No, please. Just no. We don't need a Winter of Rage to complement the Summer from 4 years ago.

If you want reallocation just do it within the character itself and not with transactions.
Tex Raynor
Guardians of Asceticism
#1545 - 2015-10-16 10:15:47 UTC
To keep attribute choice relevant, sp should probably stay in their respective categories.

This would also prevent a character from training some perception/willpower max speed only to relocated the sp into say, charisma related skills.

Other than that, can't wait to see the final iteration.

And for those claiming this make your character OP-pay-to-win... unless you can magically fly more than 1 ship I fail to find this argument convincing. Ever since I passed 100 mil sp, I have been queuing level 5 skills, in no particular order, which provide marginal benefits. Still die to the blob, still get killed by half-skilled hard counters, still pwn F1 kitchensink fleets...
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1546 - 2015-10-16 10:17:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Don ZOLA
Dave Stark wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
The issue is that this is supposed to help new players and it will not.


think i missed the line in the devblog that said that.

could you quote it for me, my eyesight seems to be failing me in my old age

Devblog wrote:
For those reasons, we’ve been wanting to take a look at improving the Bazaar for some time now. Recently, we’ve seen new threads emerging where EVE players discuss options to help new players with progression. The combination of your threads and our Character Bazaar evaluation together were that extra kick in the pants to get us into gear.


they said that us discussing helping new players has kicked them in to gear, not that this idea is for new players.


"Recently, we’ve seen new threads emerging where EVE players discuss options to help new players with progression. The combination of your threads and our Character Bazaar evaluation together were that extra kick in the pants to get us into gear."

To start with. Just noticed you quoted it as well. Whole diminishing return mechanism setup is that new players get the most of the benefit out of it. If they are willing to spend additional cash for a game they just started. IF. I am sure majority will not and as i already mentioned numerous times before, game fundamentals are being changed for something that will not yield any real benefit. Set sail for fail.

Regardless of that, it is main "argument" of supporters of this idea. And it is fail argument as it will not work as intended.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1547 - 2015-10-16 10:20:38 UTC
Tex Raynor wrote:
And for those claiming this make your character OP-pay-to-win... unless you can magically fly more than 1 ship I fail to find this argument convincing. Ever since I passed 100 mil sp, I have been queuing level 5 skills, in no particular order, which provide marginal benefits. Still die to the blob, still get killed by half-skilled hard counters, still pwn F1 kitchensink fleets...
Agree. So why do the players need this pay-to-SP crap?

If it was, say, a once-an-year partial skill reallocation I'd say ok, whatever, maybe good maybe bad, who cares.

But since it's a whenever-you-pay-us mechanic, I can't help thinking it's stinky and shady as hell...

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Jaime Wulfe
30O.
Fraternity.
#1548 - 2015-10-16 10:21:00 UTC
If I could turn back time...

... I would have left with phoebe.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1549 - 2015-10-16 10:23:37 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:

Quoted cost from previous pages:

3. The cost of buying SP will become increasing expensive. To give some numbers to this. To get a 20 million SP character with the current method I'd have to buy 22,750,000 SP to inject. That is, I have to buy 13.75% more SP than I am attempting to end up at. If I want to jump to 50 million SP I have to actually buy 60,250,000 SP or about 21% SP over where I'll end up. One poster blathered on about how there'd be all these characters with 600 million SP. Just to get to 500 million SP one would have to buy 3.495 billion SP. Yes, with a fracking 'B'...billion. So STFU about that ****.

So its not really going to be very economical to max level characters, once you get to the certain sp its going to be more viable buying a character from the bazaar


I agree with that. But I never mentioned it as a key issue. How about you read this and then comment : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6101499#post6101499


i agree with all the alts stuff after all 3 new alts and you in theory you have to pay for another subscription, maybe ccp see it like that and realise they can make more money from the whole playerbase not just new players.


Majority of new players cannot afford it. For older players the return is quite low so I doubt many will do it. Ie they are ready to change game fundamentals for something which will have weak results? What`s next we can expect? No idea if they have no consistency and who would want to invest years of playing in something which does not have consistency? Not many for sure.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know

Jade Blackwind
#1550 - 2015-10-16 10:25:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Blackwind
A bold move!

Years later, watching a sunset on a water world somewhere near Sagittarius A*, I'll probably have those fond memories of EVE, what it could become, and what it ultimately couldn't. I'll then exit E:D, load some screenshots from my first EVE trial in 2007 and shed a crocodile tear or two.

*sigh*
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#1551 - 2015-10-16 10:27:41 UTC
Eternal Bob wrote:
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:
This means from now on no matter what decision you make in the game it has no consequence any more? Just buy some more SP to get all the ships you want to fly, without any effort.


Tell me all about the effort needed to gain skill points currently.


Time.
Dave Stark
#1552 - 2015-10-16 10:29:19 UTC
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:
Eternal Bob wrote:
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:
This means from now on no matter what decision you make in the game it has no consequence any more? Just buy some more SP to get all the ships you want to fly, without any effort.


Tell me all about the effort needed to gain skill points currently.


Time.


or money, pay some one else for their time.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1553 - 2015-10-16 10:32:25 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Tex Raynor wrote:
And for those claiming this make your character OP-pay-to-win... unless you can magically fly more than 1 ship I fail to find this argument convincing. Ever since I passed 100 mil sp, I have been queuing level 5 skills, in no particular order, which provide marginal benefits. Still die to the blob, still get killed by half-skilled hard counters, still pwn F1 kitchensink fleets...
Agree. So why do the players need this pay-to-SP crap?

If it was, say, a once-an-year partial skill reallocation I'd say ok, whatever, maybe good maybe bad, who cares.

But since it's a whenever-you-pay-us mechanic, I can't help thinking it's stinky and shady as hell...

But if you bought it from another player....

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Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1554 - 2015-10-16 10:35:14 UTC
Skebet wrote:
To me the saddest part of all of this is that CCP itself doesn't seem to understand that Eve is not a spaceship simulation game; that is, characters are not meaningless bags of fungible SP. Eve is a role-playing game; each character has a unique history, reputation, quirks, oddities - a real personality of its own. If you want to control a character completely, make it yourself. Buying and selling entire characters works because each character is preserved as a unique entity. Devolving characters into sacks of points that can be bought and sold with granularity will completely destroy any sense of identity and, perhaps worse, any individual sense of progression.

Hilmar, the rest of you, please see what it means to create a true role playing universe and then potentially destroy its sense of place and soul. Realize this is a mistake and don't do it. The long term consequences will be dire. Please believe us and stop this plan.

With love and respect
Skebet


I believe the real problem is not that CCP does not understand that. Sadly I think that CCP do understand, but act upon that would be act against a playerbase that is actually the part that dont understand that.

Incarna, WiS, Content, Immersion in general, it is all compromised by the idea of favouring a sector of the playerbase in detriment of another.

There was not only one person in these forums to use the argument that "people dont play MMOs for lore and immersion, but for progression in content and pvp".

It is indeed sad.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?

TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1555 - 2015-10-16 10:36:43 UTC
I don't even really care about being able to buy SP for any char. Even if we consider the character bazaar the be an equal thing, which it isn't. There's a lot of hoops to jump through to buy a character.

Anyway, what I'm concerned with is how this is going to essentially **** over the entire skill system. Why have a skill system to begin with if newbies can simply pay 10 bucks and advance a month?

Let me explain. A while ago there was some racing game, I think it was Forza, that introduced a way to buy new cars with real money instead of having to grind for it. You could still earn all the cars without paying by just grinding hours into the game so it wasn't really exclusive content, but the grinding would require a good 500 hours of play time before you got to the best car. In other words, the grind was purposely made so long that just investing some money sees like a more decent alternative to getting that shiny car.

Going back to EVE, the skill system has always been the backbone of the game. Everyone progresses roughly at the same speed and because it's roughly the same for everyone, there has never been a reason to really complain about the training length. However, that becomes an issue when you start offering people the option to buy unallocated SP, because now suddenly that long training time is directly used to encourage micro transactions. You're basically telling people that they can either wait a month to fly a Battleship, or pay 10 bucks and fly it right now. If you're going to introduce a system like this you need to take a very long hard look at the training times as they stand today. You're obviously trying to cater to the instant gratification crowd, so maybe a skill that takes 60 days to reach level 5 isn't really fit for this day and age anymore. If you're trying to cater to that particular crowd, why not half all training times across the board and maybe it will make the buying SP thing a bit more balanced.

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Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1556 - 2015-10-16 10:37:10 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Tex Raynor wrote:
And for those claiming this make your character OP-pay-to-win... unless you can magically fly more than 1 ship I fail to find this argument convincing. Ever since I passed 100 mil sp, I have been queuing level 5 skills, in no particular order, which provide marginal benefits. Still die to the blob, still get killed by half-skilled hard counters, still pwn F1 kitchensink fleets...
Agree. So why do the players need this pay-to-SP crap?

If it was, say, a once-an-year partial skill reallocation I'd say ok, whatever, maybe good maybe bad, who cares.

But since it's a whenever-you-pay-us mechanic, I can't help thinking it's stinky and shady as hell...

But if you bought it from another player....
Actually you're buying it from CCP twice:

1st time: subscription to train the SP in the first place

2nd time: aurum to transfer them


Fascinating way to milk money, isn't it?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Big Lynx
#1557 - 2015-10-16 10:37:11 UTC
Ripard Teg wrote:


Please do not do this.


THIS
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#1558 - 2015-10-16 10:40:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Big Lynx wrote:
Ripard Teg wrote:


Please do not do this.


THIS
Agreed, I thought it'd be a cold day in hell before I ever agreed with anything Ripard Teg has to say after eroticagate; yesterday, hell apparently froze over.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#1559 - 2015-10-16 10:40:28 UTC
Rather than buying skill points, personally I would rather new players be able to complete missions that involved traveling into low and null sec space to accomplish it's objectives, whatever those objectives may be.

Ship specific missions that offered your choice of rewards towards that ships specific "mastery level" in skill point allocation.

So lets say I want to fly a Drake. I go to one of the NPC agents that offer Drake missions. I put down my ISK desposit, like 70 million and I get to fly around this drake with it's mastery level 1, 2, 3 whatever gets decided as the baseline. I get sent to low sec to do a mission chain.

While I'm doing this mission chain I get experience with the drake. I get an idea of a possible fit that indicates at least an idea of how the ship is suppose to be flown. If I complete the mission, I get skill points towards being able to fly one of my own accord whenever and however I want.

This will allow me and anyone else doing these missions for whatever ship they've chosen to get to know if continuing down the path of training for it is indeed something we want to do. Also, it gets us out into the game in dangerous situations really seeing what the game offers. It puts us out in the field so others can try to stop us from accomplishing our objectives. If we get destroyed, we lose the deposit. If we don't complete the mission in time, the ship gets repo'd and we have to limp back to wherever we choose to go in a noob ship or capsule.

Times change, and if the game doesn't change, it wont grow. We already see it's not growing anymore. It's not even stagnant. The numbers are declining (debatable but not going to debate it). This is a drastic change, and CCP is probably considering it because drastic times call for desperate measures.

It's nice that the game has held together so well over the years, but nothing lasts forever. Instead of rolling over and accepting a slow death, CCP is showing it has the balls to make big changes to the core constructs of the game in an effort to give us what we all really want:
A more populated EvE.

Now if people would stop threatening to quit or actually quitting the game, a fun game, over silly ideals and principles that ultimately do not negatively effect anything other than their egos and perception of how they personally feel the game should be, then we would stand a real chance at convincing all those newbros who've stepped away to come back and give it another shot.

Throttle back on the knee jerk reactions because Change scares you.

Things are always changing, and the ability to do so is what separates the living from the dead.
Epic Name
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1560 - 2015-10-16 10:45:09 UTC
Dezray Azizora wrote:
75 pages of the bitterest vet tears! I love it!

Also "winning" in eve isn't dictated by your SP it's dictated by your PLAYER skill, does it really frighten you that there might be a bunch of people who are better than you at playing eve that are going to lose there disadvantage to the people who have been playing longer? i hope that CCP does this so i can listen to the vets crying about how unfair it is that they have played for longer and this upstart 2 year old character just whelped them because suddenly it was a level playing field

Cry Me A River people! :D
You know it! +1