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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#1501 - 2015-10-16 09:40:44 UTC
So there isn't anything really wrong with the change, it's just "principle"?

Like, it's a great change that will most definitely result in alot more newer players trying the game and possibly sticking around long enough for us all to enjoy some new content via interaction with different people.

But because the idea is similar to pay to win, even though it's been established that it's not pay to win since skill points do not equal winning, we're revolting against it?

So the United States of America is blowing up Hospitals. All western countries are spying on and collecting data on all of their citizens for whatever nefarious purposes they can dream up. . .

But this is where we draw the line? This is the topic that gets the spergers blood boiling?

An idea that we correlate to pay to win, even though it's not, but we say it is because money is involved?

How silly. People like you are why I have such a superiority complex.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#1502 - 2015-10-16 09:44:05 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Tippia wrote:
The character bazaar does not let you bypass game mechanics; this idea does.


no, it doesn't.
Yes it does, because again, we're talking raw SP. This creates a situation that is vastly different from how the bazaar works.

Yes, the SP have to be trained, but they can be trained and applied in parallel and without limitation to the pre-existing progression mechanics of the character. You bypass the mechanic that limit a single character to earn SP at 2700 SP/h. That character can now trivially acquire SP at two, three, ten times that speed if you're willing to pay for it. The parallelisation did not exist before, nor the direct effect on the pre-existing character.

Granted, trading entire skills bypasses the exact same mechanical limit, but it does so with strict limitations on applicability and parallelisation. It more closely parallels what we see in the bazaar, but with greater granularity than “a whole character” in terms of what you're trading.At that point, your observation would hold true: because you can only inject Carrier V once. With SP, that limit is gone, and with it any resemblance to the bazaar.


Apart from that, if you buy a character you buy its history, skill point allocation and its name, you're continuing that character's story progression. This new idea is circumventing normal procedure and character growth/advancement JUST like those Ishukone Scorps did back then and JUST as in that situation some folks at CCP apparently lack the understanding of how bad of an idea this is, which is quite worrying.
Dezray Azizora
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1503 - 2015-10-16 09:44:09 UTC
75 pages of the bitterest vet tears! I love it!

Also "winning" in eve isn't dictated by your SP it's dictated by your PLAYER skill, does it really frighten you that there might be a bunch of people who are better than you at playing eve that are going to lose there disadvantage to the people who have been playing longer? i hope that CCP does this so i can listen to the vets crying about how unfair it is that they have played for longer and this upstart 2 year old character just whelped them because suddenly it was a level playing field

Cry Me A River people! :D
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#1504 - 2015-10-16 09:44:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Burl en Daire
Dave Stark wrote:
Tippia wrote:
The character bazaar does not let you bypass game mechanics; this idea does.


no, it doesn't.

those SP still have to be trained by some one. in the same way plex doesn't let you bypass the subscription because some one has to pay for that plex.



I have to agree with Tippia, I have played DUST514 and EVE for the same amount of time and to be honest DUST514 was the game that got me to start a toon in EVE. In DUST SP is not allocated, it is in a pool that I can draw from to "train" skills. I haven't even logged on in months but I know the the pool is growing, more slowly than EVE but growing, and I can just log on and train any skill I want.

With EVE I have a connection with the toon that I don't have in DUST, it -for whatever reason is different- is not the same. Burl here is a character that has trained to whatever I wanted at the moment or thought was good in the upcoming events. I look after him and mold him to the meta or to the desire of the moment whereas in DUST it is just logging in and tune him to the whatever is happening.

Playing both games have influenced me and I like EVE more because if I screw up it means something. DUST allows for SP respecs which I fought. Here. There is even a Hitler parody about it but I couldn't find it. Here in EVE my screw ups mean I didn't read the meta correctly or I lose out out on a certain thing but in DUST I just don't play and wait it out. Yeah, it is all about how I feel but is doesn't change the FEEL of the game and in the end that is all that matters and that is all CCP is banking on.

Making the game unique, making the story unique and making each individual player unique is what EVE is about and I think and feel that selling SP takes away from that feeling and without that feeling there isn't anything thing that distinguishes us from another game.

P.S. I am drunk, please forgive my mistakes and/or whatever.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson
Theo Sotken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1505 - 2015-10-16 09:44:23 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Tippia wrote:
The character bazaar does not let you bypass game mechanics; this idea does.


no, it doesn't.

those SP still have to be trained by some one. in the same way plex doesn't let you bypass the subscription because some one has to pay for that plex.


Yes it does. It allows one character to benefit from the training of an unlimited amount of characters instantly.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1506 - 2015-10-16 09:44:26 UTC
Short break for catch up with some books and what?
Pay to win? Really CCP?
Whole unique character building system just landed in the dumpster.
Wrong move IMO, it will backfire in the future. This will ruin whole player base.


"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Tex Raynor
Guardians of Asceticism
#1507 - 2015-10-16 09:45:46 UTC
Love it.
I suggest considering placing a cap, say around 150 or 200 mil sp, at which point sp cannot be injected. Otherwise one could technically purchase his way all up to maximum skillpoints - not sure if I am ok with that.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1508 - 2015-10-16 09:47:25 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
this limitation doesn't limit anything other than the max sp on a character - which is irrelevant as i pointed out; only a finite number of skills affect any activity at any given time and we're LONG past the time where a situation exists where nobody has a character with a perfect skill set for any given activity.
LOL worst example ever of a stale bittervet point of view.

If this were true, a fundamental game mechanic would be completely irrelevant. CCP should start worrying about how to completely revamp this (e.g. introducing new space that requires new skills, putting everybody on the same page again) instead of completing the f-up with this crap idea.

But since this isn't true, at least for all the players that have just started and/or don't hardcore grind ISK 10 hours/day and/or don't throw hundreds of $ in cash to buy PLEX, CCP would be wise to not f-up themselves a game mechanic (skill training) that's fundamentally not broken.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Uber Pie
#1509 - 2015-10-16 09:47:53 UTC
Buying SP for ISK/PLEX/Cash is already taking place at the character bazaar, so let's not hide our heads in the sand and pretend it's not taking place already.

Two comments from my end to limit abuse:


  • A max limit of SP injections per year is a good idea I read in the thread. 2.5m SP is about a year's training @ 2610 SP per hr and there's a ton you can do with 2.5m SP reallocated. 5m is over the top in my book.

  • A timer between SP injections as we have for Neural remapping. 1 year per injection sounds reasonable.

CorporationsUnlimited™ - Providing New Eden with High Faction Standing Corporations since 2010
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1510 - 2015-10-16 09:48:55 UTC
Tex Raynor wrote:
Love it.
I suggest considering placing a cap, say around 150 or 200 mil sp, at which point sp cannot be injected. Otherwise one could technically purchase his way all up to maximum skillpoints - not sure if I am ok with that.


there was a post earlier explaining what the cost would be to have max level, that wont happen...

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#1511 - 2015-10-16 09:49:02 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
No one is going to force you to give up your skill points.

If you don't want other people to buy your skill points, well then you don't have to extract them for sale.

Giving a veteran an opportunity to make a choice that not only benefits him self isk-financially but whomever decides to trade that fair amount to receive the product is only a win-win for everyone involved.

The only people who incorrectly think there is any negative are those who are imagining that their own skill point totals are some how going to become devalued.

My getting to have more skill points isn't going to make your already collected SP any less valuable. The backlash is based purely on your own improperly imagined sense of self-importance.

It is funny that you actually think you or your newbro friends will somehow benefit from this at all.

While you are still celebrating about something you have no idea about how it will impact the game we already make plans how to gut that system if it actually hits the servers.

All the ingredients to this, SP and massive amounts of ISK, are in the hands of old players.

All you have to look forward too are massive PLEX prices and SP you are too pore to purchase. Sucks to be you.

Evil RatKid
Themes
Turcopolier
#1512 - 2015-10-16 09:51:42 UTC
NO
Tex Raynor
Guardians of Asceticism
#1513 - 2015-10-16 09:51:44 UTC
Uber Pie wrote:
Buying SP for ISK/PLEX/Cash is already taking place at the character bazaar, so let's not hide our heads in the sand and pretend it's not taking place already.

Two comments from my end to limit abuse:


  • A max limit of SP injections per year is a good idea I read in the thread. 2.5m SP is about a year's training @ 2610 SP per hr and there's a ton you can do with 2.5m SP reallocated. 5m is over the top in my book.

  • A timer between SP injections as we have for Neural remapping. 1 year per injection sounds reasonable.


Good points, a cap per year would also work.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1514 - 2015-10-16 09:52:00 UTC
Uber Pie wrote:
Buying SP for ISK/PLEX/Cash is already taking place at the character bazaar, so let's not hide our heads in the sand and pretend it's not taking place already.

Two comments from my end to limit abuse:


  • A max limit of SP injections per year is a good idea I read in the thread. 2.5m SP is about a year's training @ 2610 SP per hr and there's a ton you can do with 2.5m SP reallocated. 5m is over the top in my book.

  • A timer between SP injections as we have for Neural remapping. 1 year per injection sounds reasonable.


2.5mil sp is not a years worth of training

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#1515 - 2015-10-16 09:52:30 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
No one is going to force you to give up your skill points.

If you don't want other people to buy your skill points, well then you don't have to extract them for sale.

Giving a veteran an opportunity to make a choice that not only benefits him self isk-financially but whomever decides to trade that fair amount to receive the product is only a win-win for everyone involved.

The only people who incorrectly think there is any negative are those who are imagining that their own skill point totals are some how going to become devalued.

My getting to have more skill points isn't going to make your already collected SP any less valuable. The backlash is based purely on your own improperly imagined sense of self-importance.

It is funny that you actually think you or your newbro friends will somehow benefit from this at all.

While you are still celebrating about something you have no idea about how it will impact the game we already make plans how to gut that system if it actually hits the servers.

All the ingredients to this, SP and massive amounts of ISK, are in the hands of old players.

All you have to look forward too are massive PLEX prices and SP you are too pore to purchase. Sucks to be you.


So then you prove your intentions are set to serve no one but your own. Therefore any opinion you offer one way or the other is tainted by your impure personage relegating your opinion as nothing but manipulation for your sole benefit at the expense of others.

Thanks for exposing the truth about yourself so we know not to listen to what you try to say.

lol @ pore
Dave stark
#1516 - 2015-10-16 09:53:09 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
If this were true


uh, it is.

you can't magically train skills to VI, and not every skill applies to every activity, ship, or weapon.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1517 - 2015-10-16 09:53:14 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
So there isn't anything really wrong with the change, it's just "principle"?

Like, it's a great change that will most definitely result in alot more newer players trying the game and possibly sticking around long enough for us all to enjoy some new content via interaction with different people.

But because the idea is similar to pay to win, even though it's been established that it's not pay to win since skill points do not equal winning, we're revolting against it?

So the United States of America is blowing up Hospitals. All western countries are spying on and collecting data on all of their citizens for whatever nefarious purposes they can dream up. . .

But this is where we draw the line? This is the topic that gets the spergers blood boiling?

An idea that we correlate to pay to win, even though it's not, but we say it is because money is involved?

How silly. People like you are why I have such a superiority complex.


Stop being ignorant for a start and read arguments people write and stop repeating bs. Also there is no point referring this to drawing the line related to RL politics / security measure / spying. Only correlation between this and RL is us being RL customers paying with RL money for CCP services.

It is not a great change and it will definitely NOT result in a lot more new players. Quite contrary. This change would have side effects firing left end right without real benefit.

I am glad you have superiority complex. Ignorant people usually do have it. What a coincidence eh? :)

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
TurboX3
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#1518 - 2015-10-16 09:54:48 UTC
lm Stuck wrote:
This is a terrible idea, and you should feel bad for suggesting it.

CCP Rise is killing this game one horrible idea at a time. smh

Seriously, is CCP so broke that this is even necessary? Stop being like every other company out there and quit treating your players like cashcows to be milked until dry.


This man is right....
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#1519 - 2015-10-16 09:55:18 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
So there isn't anything really wrong with the change, it's just "principle"?

Like, it's a great change that will most definitely result in alot more newer players trying the game and possibly sticking around long enough for us all to enjoy some new content via interaction with different people.

But because the idea is similar to pay to win, even though it's been established that it's not pay to win since skill points do not equal winning, we're revolting against it?

So the United States of America is blowing up Hospitals. All western countries are spying on and collecting data on all of their citizens for whatever nefarious purposes they can dream up. . .

But this is where we draw the line? This is the topic that gets the spergers blood boiling?

An idea that we correlate to pay to win, even though it's not, but we say it is because money is involved?

How silly. People like you are why I have such a superiority complex.


Stop being ignorant for a start and read arguments people write and stop repeating bs.


I can say this exact same thing to you and it will be just as true, and probably more so.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1520 - 2015-10-16 09:55:50 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Tex Raynor wrote:
Love it.
I suggest considering placing a cap, say around 150 or 200 mil sp, at which point sp cannot be injected. Otherwise one could technically purchase his way all up to maximum skillpoints - not sure if I am ok with that.


there was a post earlier explaining what the cost would be to have max level, that wont happen...


There are people who spend thousands, even tents of thousands on this game, why do you think it is not going to happen? Rare cases of course, but it will happen.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know