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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Dave stark
#1441 - 2015-10-16 08:08:03 UTC
J Livermore wrote:
but I fail to see how it applies to a game where you should have fun.


if some body else having a different number of SP than you impacts your "fun" in eve... you're doing something seriously wrong.
Anthar Thebess
#1442 - 2015-10-16 08:08:35 UTC
No one buys 5mil sp chars.
They are not worth the investment - good chars start around 30mil sp , or around 17mil if this are pure focused projects.

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Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1443 - 2015-10-16 08:10:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
doesnt really make much difference to me, if it increases players and they buy sp to be "nullsec relevant" then ill shoot them in the bubble of my cloaky sabre and trololol

Code will probably have some fun with this, millions more easy gank alts just in time for the hyperdunking nerf with tons of fresh new targets who dont have a clue about the game flying around in blingy stuff.

Skills dont really bother me too much anymore, i can fly the ships i like and dont pay any attention to my skill queue anymore

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1444 - 2015-10-16 08:11:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
double post

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Dave stark
#1445 - 2015-10-16 08:12:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
edited.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1446 - 2015-10-16 08:12:18 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
No one buys 5mil sp chars.
They are not worth the investment - good chars start around 30mil sp , or around 17mil if this are pure focused projects.


Wrong

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1447 - 2015-10-16 08:12:38 UTC
Avanda Redblade wrote:
This thread is such a depressing read.

As it stands, a new player can NEVER catch up to someone who happened to start playing earlier. Surely you all see that this is becoming more and more of a problem to new players as time goes by?

I just want to play the game. I can't join a half-decent corp until I have 15 or 25 mil SP or whatever. This suggestion would help to enable me to start PLAYING the game rather than just logging in to check skills every few days. I just want to spend the same money on SP instead of subs and start playing sooner. I have played before and know it is worth waiting for but many will not.

The strength of the opinions of the older players should also be factored down by the diminishing returns mentioned in the blog. The mentality of these old gits is to keep their "rightful" place in society and do whatever they can to prevent any new characters becoming as famous as the old empire builders or legendary FCs.

I am in favour of this proposal to remove the most rusty nail of all from Eve's coffin-to-be.
I never thought that 'catching up' was an issue, even when I started 2 years ago.

But if it's a problem to you, do you really think it's a good idea to be able to 'catch up' only if you pay CCP additional money, on top of your monthly subscription?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1448 - 2015-10-16 08:13:06 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
J Livermore wrote:
but I fail to see how it applies to a game where you should have fun.


if some body else having a different number of SP than you impacts your "fun" in eve... you're doing something seriously wrong.



Wrong


then explain it to me, good sir.

Was ref to another guy soz

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1449 - 2015-10-16 08:13:12 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
No one buys 5mil sp chars.
They are not worth the investment - good chars start around 30mil sp , or around 17mil if this are pure focused projects.


Wrong


yes he is, covert cyno chars and trade chars still sell

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1450 - 2015-10-16 08:16:01 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
No one buys 5mil sp chars.
They are not worth the investment - good chars start around 30mil sp , or around 17mil if this are pure focused projects.
Maybe you should actually click on the character bazaar link and have a little look around. Then you can come back and edit that post to reflect more than your uninformed opinion.

Mr Epeen Cool
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1451 - 2015-10-16 08:21:33 UTC
Just to try and introduce some facts into this discussion as most people seem to be just knee jerking.

1. Any SP that ends up on the market has to be extracted from an existing character. No SP will be "created out of thin air".
To be clear on point 1, for SP to end up on the market a player will have to expend ISK or Aurum to first extract the SP, then to have that SP deposited into an SP packet. No SP will be created by CCP over an above the total number of SP at the time the player decides to "drain" one of his characters.

To give a concrete example, my main (the one I'm posting on), does not have many wasted SP. I have a bit in resource processing and trivial amount of SP here and there from when I first created the character (500 SP in defender missiles?!?!). Totaling it all up I can't even find 500,000 SP I'd like to part with. In other words, of my 123 million SP, none of it will end up on the market at this time.

2. The character bazaar is a "competitor" of this model. That is if I decide I'm going to make a character for sale I'm going to do my best to avoid "wasted SP"--i.e. if it is a PVP character I'm training chances are I'm not going to be training any social skills. However, if were to train a mission runner I might train some social skills.

3. The cost of buying SP will become increasing expensive. To give some numbers to this. To get a 20 million SP character with the current method I'd have to buy 22,750,000 SP to inject. That is, I have to buy 13.75% more SP than I am attempting to end up at. If I want to jump to 50 million SP I have to actually buy 60,250,000 SP or about 21% SP over where I'll end up. One poster blathered on about how there'd be all these characters with 600 million SP. Just to get to 500 million SP one would have to buy 3.495 billion SP. Yes, with a fracking 'B'...billion. So STFU about that ****.

4. Alt SP farms will likely not be a thing, except for people who don't understand basic economics. If I were to start a new account and train a character for 1 month with maxed out attributes I could get about 2.1 million SP. Given the current price of PLEX I'd have to be able to sell this alts SP for 583 ISK/SP just to be able to PLEX the account. And that is ignoring the cost of the extractor and the SP packet items.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1452 - 2015-10-16 08:25:52 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Just to try and introduce some facts into this discussion as most people seem to be just knee jerking.

1. Any SP that ends up on the market has to be extracted from an existing character. No SP will be "created out of thin air".
To be clear on point 1, for SP to end up on the market a player will have to expend ISK or Aurum to first extract the SP, then to have that SP deposited into an SP packet. No SP will be created by CCP over an above the total number of SP at the time the player decides to "drain" one of his characters.

To give a concrete example, my main (the one I'm posting on), does not have many wasted SP. I have a bit in resource processing and trivial amount of SP here and there from when I first created the character (500 SP in defender missiles?!?!). Totaling it all up I can't even find 500,000 SP I'd like to part with. In other words, of my 123 million SP, none of it will end up on the market at this time.

2. The character bazaar is a "competitor" of this model. That is if I decide I'm going to make a character for sale I'm going to do my best to avoid "wasted SP"--i.e. if it is a PVP character I'm training chances are I'm not going to be training any social skills. However, if were to train a mission runner I might train some social skills.

3. The cost of buying SP will become increasing expensive. To give some numbers to this. To get a 20 million SP character with the current method I'd have to buy 22,750,000 SP to inject. That is, I have to buy 13.75% more SP than I am attempting to end up at. If I want to jump to 50 million SP I have to actually buy 60,250,000 SP or about 21% SP over where I'll end up. One poster blathered on about how there'd be all these characters with 600 million SP. Just to get to 500 million SP one would have to buy 3.495 billion SP. Yes, with a fracking 'B'...billion. So STFU about that ****.

4. Alt SP farms will likely not be a thing, except for people who don't understand basic economics. If I were to start a new account and train a character for 1 month with maxed out attributes I could get about 2.1 million SP. Given the current price of PLEX I'd have to be able to sell this alts SP for 583 ISK/SP just to be able to PLEX the account. And that is ignoring the cost of the extractor and the SP packet items.


All mentioned is correct BUT it does not change the fact that new players will not benefit from it and that the game fundamentals are being changed for something with such low benefit (almost non existent) for 99% of players. Simple as that.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Dave stark
#1453 - 2015-10-16 08:26:36 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
4. Alt SP farms will likely not be a thing, except for people who don't understand basic economics. If I were to start a new account and train a character for 1 month with maxed out attributes I could get about 2.1 million SP. Given the current price of PLEX I'd have to be able to sell this alts SP for 583 ISK/SP just to be able to PLEX the account. And that is ignoring the cost of the extractor and the SP packet items.


To be fair. depending on the price of the extractor one of my accounts may just become an SP farm.

It's an account with 3 PI characters on it. after about 15 days you kinda don't need to train any more SP. this account is a perfect candidate to be an "sp farm" - it already pulls in a good amount of isk with the PI, it'll just be icing on the cake to make isk with unused SP.

admittedly, my situation isn't going to be super common but i doubt it's unique.
J Livermore
Doomheim
#1454 - 2015-10-16 08:33:47 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
J Livermore wrote:
but I fail to see how it applies to a game where you should have fun.


if some body else having a different number of SP than you impacts your "fun" in eve... you're doing something seriously wrong.


I meant more in general than in this particular case. In gaming industry it's probably not a good idea leave your customers feeling disappointed where as on other areas of life it may be right thing to do.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1455 - 2015-10-16 08:37:55 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Just to try and introduce some facts into this discussion as most people seem to be just knee jerking.

1. Any SP that ends up on the market has to be extracted from an existing character. No SP will be "created out of thin air".
To be clear on point 1, for SP to end up on the market a player will have to expend ISK or Aurum to first extract the SP, then to have that SP deposited into an SP packet. No SP will be created by CCP over an above the total number of SP at the time the player decides to "drain" one of his characters.

To give a concrete example, my main (the one I'm posting on), does not have many wasted SP. I have a bit in resource processing and trivial amount of SP here and there from when I first created the character (500 SP in defender missiles?!?!). Totaling it all up I can't even find 500,000 SP I'd like to part with. In other words, of my 123 million SP, none of it will end up on the market at this time.

2. The character bazaar is a "competitor" of this model. That is if I decide I'm going to make a character for sale I'm going to do my best to avoid "wasted SP"--i.e. if it is a PVP character I'm training chances are I'm not going to be training any social skills. However, if were to train a mission runner I might train some social skills.

3. The cost of buying SP will become increasing expensive. To give some numbers to this. To get a 20 million SP character with the current method I'd have to buy 22,750,000 SP to inject. That is, I have to buy 13.75% more SP than I am attempting to end up at. If I want to jump to 50 million SP I have to actually buy 60,250,000 SP or about 21% SP over where I'll end up. One poster blathered on about how there'd be all these characters with 600 million SP. Just to get to 500 million SP one would have to buy 3.495 billion SP. Yes, with a fracking 'B'...billion. So STFU about that ****.

4. Alt SP farms will likely not be a thing, except for people who don't understand basic economics. If I were to start a new account and train a character for 1 month with maxed out attributes I could get about 2.1 million SP. Given the current price of PLEX I'd have to be able to sell this alts SP for 583 ISK/SP just to be able to PLEX the account. And that is ignoring the cost of the extractor and the SP packet items.
Too lazy to check the math, so I'll take your word on these points.

But in any case, it all boils down to:

1. If farming SP on one side, and injecting SP on the other, is viable/efficient --> bad idea, because p2w: if you have the cash, you can trivialize a fundamental game mechanic

2. If, as you seem to suggest, the proposed system is not so efficient --> bad idea, because you're introducing something fundamentally useless/meaningless but charging cash for it: sounds like a rip off to me

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#1456 - 2015-10-16 08:40:21 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

4. Alt SP farms will likely not be a thing, except for people who don't understand basic economics. If I were to start a new account and train a character for 1 month with maxed out attributes I could get about 2.1 million SP. Given the current price of PLEX I'd have to be able to sell this alts SP for 583 ISK/SP just to be able to PLEX the account. And that is ignoring the cost of the extractor and the SP packet items.

Why would anyone sell the SP at a price below what it costs to produce them? The only people with excess SP to sell will be:

a) vets which have all the SP they need already
b) people running SP farms.

So either SP farms are a thing or the only supply will be vets. Vets only seams highly unlikely to me to be enough to saturate the market with SP to an amount that the price falls below what it will take to produce them in a SP farm with PLEX + extractor for free gametime.

Maybe I am wrong and there are a ton of vets who have no idea what to train and just want to lower their sub costs or produce free ISK out of excess SP.

Evil RatKid
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#1457 - 2015-10-16 08:40:39 UTC
I think the sanest thing you could do at this point is delete the dev blog and this thread and pretend it never happened.
Dave stark
#1458 - 2015-10-16 08:42:07 UTC
J Livermore wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
J Livermore wrote:
but I fail to see how it applies to a game where you should have fun.


if some body else having a different number of SP than you impacts your "fun" in eve... you're doing something seriously wrong.


I meant more in general than in this particular case. In gaming industry it's probably not a good idea leave your customers feeling disappointed where as on other areas of life it may be right thing to do.


I'm largely indifferent to this change - and i think that's a good thing.

let me explain why;

when i feel excited about a change usually it's because there's something i can abuse - that means whatever change we're discussing is generally bad or flawed in some way.
when i feel outraged by a change usually it's because it's poorly executed - that means it's generally bad or flawed in some way.

look at the faction warfare changes a while ago - certain people got very excited because they were blowing up freighers of zydrine.
look at the fallout from fozziesov recently - certain people got very upset because lets be honest, releasing half a system with no information about the other half was a terrible idea that thankfully CCP have now realised and hopefully won't repeat.

when i feel completely indifferent about an idea it's usually because it's GOOD.

we should also remember - how i feel about an idea in a devblog and how i feel when i'm zipping around in my confessor are two separate things and feelings.
Big rEy
Ro Maniacs
Fragsters
#1459 - 2015-10-16 08:42:44 UTC
wow, so much crying.
p2w you say. Well, let's do a croud funding yo, make one of you crybabyes have the best thing this game can offer and max skills. What will that do to you? NOTHING. You will still get gilled by blob no mather what you are in. I have 150 bil, and 50 mil sp, that does not make me better at solo pvp. I don't even have solo kills, cause i don't go solo, so you can have all the isk, it's for nothing if you don't have the experience. it's not like all of you out there are like guados and predator666.
oh wow, we may end up with characters maxed out. WOW, that science and mining and other stuff will be so hard to counter in a 1v1 pvp. Roll
Also, what's the deal with the "won't matter the age"? you should rather check his kb to see what's about that char for a smarther intel.
Yeah, plex will likely be more expensive for a bit, then should drop out. I have alts that I don't care about due to the fact that my main has all I need for this game. So i would unsubscribe the after i strip the sp. 8 less plex/month.

I Don't always PvP, but when I do...

I Don't always PvP, but when I do...
Eternal Bob
Doomheim
#1460 - 2015-10-16 08:46:42 UTC
Scott Dracov wrote:
I am an individual with unique real life aviation ... experiences


rofl

Why do you keep mentioning this as if it has any relevance at all?

Better listen to this guy, CCP, he can fly a plane IRL.

Biomassing to free a char slot.