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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Skinzee
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1401 - 2015-10-16 07:11:21 UTC
Pistonbroke wrote:
Skinzee wrote:
Pistonbroke wrote:
This is a terrible idea.

Newer players who want to get ahead in the game can use the character bazaar to get a toon. Evidence of it changing hands is in the forums for all to see, so the disingenuous claptrap about bad rep does not hold water.

Losing the ability to gauge from the age of a character his potential skills will ruin various balances within the game, and will be very horrible for pirates, solo pvpers etc

Have you heard of "street sleepers"? these are super tuned cars which look to all intents and purposes like the standard vehicle that granny uses to run down to the supermarket to buy milk and cat-food. underneath however, they are turbocharged nutters. That's what you are proposing to create.

This is clearly a cash cow, and whilst we don't mind ccp having cash cows to milk, please bear in mind that we are already in the shed every month with our udders out.

Here is my alternative suggestion.

Have your SP reallocators, by all means, but make them only work for the toon the SPs are extracted from.
Give them a delay (24 hrs?) so that you cant fly into the station a maxxed out BS pilot, and undock as a maxxed out carrier pilot 2 mins later.
I'd happily take a 5-1 loss in the exchange rate to get rid of some of the more ******** things I've changed and to gain a small boost on some skills I would still like to gain.

Permit changes of this nature by all means, but don't create the ability for the already super rich and Highly skilled pilots to rattle up to 500m SPs within a month of the change. Likewise don't create the game breaking situation where a two month old character can be able to fly every sup-cap in the game to maximum proficiency, just because he has RL isk to burn, and wants to create a "street sleeper".

If this goes ahead, I for one will finally say enough already, and bid farewell to eve, and hello to one of the other games which are rapidly making steps ahead, such as Elite Dangerous, or Star Citizen. I'll wish you luck, and I won't look back.


Basically, your arguement is purely based on PvP...

So what your saying is that you wont PvP with someone unless they are MUCH younger than you because you know you 'out skillpoint them'?

Coward... SKillpoints doesnt mean everything... I could beat you 1 on 1 in PvP with this character with 2m SP just because I have a counter fit.. or I out manually pilot you.. or I BLOB you...

If your going to leave because I get to fly a shiny ship in a month when it took you 3 months... Go then..


clearly you misunderstand, Let me spell it out to you. - A six week old player might choose not to engage a 10 year old player, for obvious reasons.

This change creates the situation where the money rich player can create a toon with the skills of a 10 year old player, that looks like a 2 month old player.

So my argument is entirely the converse to your assumption.

And when it comes to calling people coward.... who's the one in the NPC corp?


Why would I need to look at someones DOB to assume I can beat them? Its a simple case of ship vs ship, pilot vs pilot... As I said... I could destroy you in PvP just because im a better pilot... not because I have more skillpoints... Obviously, If your sitting in a legion and im in a Omen.. Im not going to engage you am I?

and im a coward because im in a NPC corp? maybe I like mission running in my punisher in a corp of 100's online that actually chat. Rather than a corp of 4 and in an active war? Yeah... Good comeback Roll
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1402 - 2015-10-16 07:13:00 UTC
Aerasia wrote:
Akako Higanjima wrote:
Which, I suppose, is why we're all here commenting. Blink
I'd say most people here are commenting just because they're scared some newbies Important Internets Spaceship Number will get closer to the veterans Important Internets Spaceship Number without the appropriate paying of dues and kissing of rings.
Estevan Andrard wrote:
That is reason enough to consider that skill and progression is being driven to the death row.
We can only hope.


This is utter bs. They will not get closer since majority of them cannot afford it. Therefore it does not help new players, only experienced, rich players might have some benefits in paying to fix their past mistakes and slightly easier creation of perfect alts.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
TSaQ
Fundamental
#1403 - 2015-10-16 07:13:35 UTC
The wrong way started with the need for speed and will end with Skill Trading.

After 10 years of playing EVE,
i am finally disgusted.
Scott Dracov
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1404 - 2015-10-16 07:15:11 UTC
wow I had no idea CCP had these things going on until I just read about it just now...

New CEO...

Big move to London...

Big shiny new servers...


Why do I envision an internal memo saying...

Quote:
The beatings will continue until moral and player base numbers improves.

If the goose laying the golden eggs must be killed to pay for my New IBM's so be it!

-New CEO


so a friendly face delivers this topic and disguises it and the fact that all the CSM's said hell no because the New CEO demands more money to pay for his expensive move and his new IBM's and his shiny salary?

Cascading Failure.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1405 - 2015-10-16 07:17:15 UTC
Chrome Veinss wrote:
Burl en Daire wrote:
In a way this seems to take advantage of new players.

These new pilots get into the game for $20 and then see how much things cost so they spend $20 on a PLEX to buy a cool ships only to learn they can't fly it without spending $20 -or whatever the price will be- to add SP to their toon. If they quit CCP has just milked them for some money just to learn they don't like the game, if my friend told me that about EVE I would have never signed up.

CCP needs to be mindful of how the things look to outsiders.


Those $60 will still be cheaper than paying a subscription for several months on top of grinding the isk to buy the ships though

Ive been playing for almost 3 years and I still cant fly many (most?) ships. I probably wouldnt have started playing if someone had told me i would still be lagging behind 3 years into the game, but I ended up liking it anyway


Maybe, but how many new players will start playing a game where beside 15 bucks a month for subscription you need 50-100 bucks to "start off"? 2-3? :D

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#1406 - 2015-10-16 07:17:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Ima Wreckyou
So this is what I will do if this horrible Idea actually makes it to TQ:

I will create x new accounts with the following character slot layout:

1) gank alt
2) gank / infiltration alt
3) SP farm

Since you can now create gank alts within 16min you can start the queue on the SP farm alt right away.

SP farm alt will work like this:

1) buy PLEX from market and add gametime
2) train SP at max efficiency
3) extract and sell the SP
4) => 1)

This will start to simply produce ISK after ~2 months. From this point onwards you will have as many free alts as you want no matter the PLEX price, since the SP you produce by consuming this PLEX will always sell for more than they cost to produce this way.

Welcome to the age of effortless endless free gank alts which will even fill your wallet with the excess money they produce. So no more waiting for 15min after a gank, you just switch to a new alt in your pool or scale your fleet to as much DPS is required for the kill.

I know you could do this with the bazzar in theory, but it involves a lot more effort to actually sell those toons, which makes it impractical.

RIP PLEX prices, sorry

I am starting to like this idea after all.

Evil RatKid
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1407 - 2015-10-16 07:20:03 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
Will new players with 'pay to win' mechanics actually increase the subscription rates?


How is this pay to win when it can be done all in game with in-game monetary units? Plex and Aurum can be purchased, as usual, does this make it pay-to-win? Does having better skills mean you instantly win a fight? I don't think so, buying a couple of level 5 skills doesn't make you know how to orbit in range properly or manual-keep-at-range.

Half of the time any skill-intensive ships are only used in large fleets anyhow. This seems like it would just allow new players to get the right ships to join the vets faster. If you are worried about whether you have rapid firing 4 rather than 5 compared to the guy you are fighting in a 1v1 you are doing 1v1s wrong anyhow, and that's the only place differing skills between two players truly matter.

The thing is usually grind to win.

As mentioned, if they grind and buy SP packets and use it, at least they can't lose it (can't even be alphapodded anymore). If anything, I hope that the poor constantly clueless new people who fall into every pit the veterans always are so concerned about....

perhaps if they spend their grinding isk on some SP, it'll be better than currently where the only thing to spend on is loseable ships. But I'm sure the so concerned vets are fine with that....


The vast majority of veteran players already have all skills that give a major statistical advantage maxed anyhow, it's not like most players having those maxed would make the game unfair for anyone. The only "winners" would be new players in terms of statistics, and veterans in terms of ISK. New players wouldn't necessarily have to pay real money for anything anyways, they could just make ISK through the ways that exist already.


No, since new players would not be able to afford it without investing significant amounts of cash (significant compared to subscription cost). And I am sure plenty would not be ready for that. So it would only rich vets who can benefit from this. And that is why this idea is fail. It does not benefit the target group.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Synthiosis
Perkone
Caldari State
#1408 - 2015-10-16 07:20:23 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
Synthiosis wrote:


In conclussion,


Is that when you have a eureka moment when someone clobbers you over the head with a brick ?


What **** wit?
Skinzee
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1409 - 2015-10-16 07:21:38 UTC
Skinzee wrote:
RL MONEY => PLEX => CHARACTER BAZAAR => 100M SP CHARACTER

RL MONEY => AUR => SKILLPOINT BOOST => 100M SP CHARACTER


Difference?

CHARACTERS BIRTH DATE
NO BAD CHARACTER HISTORY FOR SKILLPOINT BOOSTED CHARACTER.

Disagree? Why?


Skinzee wrote:
I have a question for ALL people that say this is a bad idea...


--- WHAT EFFECT WOULD IT HAVE ON YOU AS A PILOT IF THIS WOULD ACTUALLY GO LIVE? ---


There is already an option to buy 0-200m SP characters... Character Bazaar - (Thats Pay2Win if you look at it that way)


I've read through most of the post's this morning and still not seen a 'valid' argument against this idea. All I see is people saying "Dont, I will quit, wha wha wha", "Doing this will mean my 10year DOB means nothing wha wha wha"

If your crying this much about the transfer of SP for substantially more RL money than character bazaar, Why have none of you kicked off this much about buying characters with already 100's millions of SP?

ITS EXACTLY THE SAME... - Only difference is what ive stated above... and again, its the PvPer that are crying the most PURELY because of the DOB? Does it really mean that much to you that you cant PvP someone fairly? You only pick on people born after you? Thats kinda like bullying and cowardly if thats the case.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1410 - 2015-10-16 07:22:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Don ZOLA wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
This gives new players an actual reason, an actual object to strive for to further their progression.

They can subscribe, then go farm isk for the purpose of using it to buy skill points to level their characters faster.

Instead of subscribe and wait for a year, they can subscribe and play a ****-ton of EvE being out in the game actively playing, using their activity to acquire an actual benefit. Using the actual desirable reward of leveling their character as incentive to want to spend more time actively pursuing it.

Sure, just as it's possible to purchase a subscription with dollars, it's also possible to purchase a subscription with isk.
This adds another benefit to the new player, something he wants.



No it does not. They will have to spend isk (which they dont have as they are new, so cash) to get in the game. How many people are going to do so. Your subscription is 15 bucks per month, but you should invest 50-100 bucks to get better start. If you think that is going to get people attracted or keep them in the game, you are wrong.



New players can get ISK via selling PLEX. Another version of "pay to win". A single PLEX can take a new player up to 5 million SP or so and leave them with 300-400 million ISK in their wallet.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Truli Puh
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1411 - 2015-10-16 07:24:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Truli Puh
hey i want to transfer all my skill points to my BRAVE alt *snaps fingers* hurry up OR ELSE

so bad
sixteen 64
1664.
#1412 - 2015-10-16 07:28:43 UTC  |  Edited by: sixteen 64
EVE is touted as a cold harsh world where everything you do has consequences of some kind or the other and decisions you make matter

The consequence of selling ones SP would be the diminishing returns

As it stands you can buy a character of the bazaar, and the consequence of that is, you don't get to pick your name, possible bad corp history, ex thief, possibility of still having SP in skills you won't use etc etc

But wheres the consequence of buying raw unallocated sp? (other than the cost, but then most hobbies cost money)

It sounds like a horrid idea and borderline cheating \ pay2win, and goes against everything I thought EVE was about.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1413 - 2015-10-16 07:29:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Don ZOLA
Teckos Pech wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
This gives new players an actual reason, an actual object to strive for to further their progression.

They can subscribe, then go farm isk for the purpose of using it to buy skill points to level their characters faster.

Instead of subscribe and wait for a year, they can subscribe and play a ****-ton of EvE being out in the game actively playing, using their activity to acquire an actual benefit. Using the actual desirable reward of leveling their character as incentive to want to spend more time actively pursuing it.

Sure, just as it's possible to purchase a subscription with dollars, it's also possible to purchase a subscription with isk.
This adds another benefit to the new player, something he wants.



No it does not. They will have to spend isk (which they dont have as they are new, so cash) to get in the game. How many people are going to do so. Your subscription is 15 bucks per month, but you should invest 50-100 bucks to get better start. If you think that is going to get people attracted or keep them in the game, you are wrong.



New players can get ISK via selling PLEX. Another version of "pay to win". A single PLEX can take a new player up to 5 million SP or so and leave them with 300-400 million ISK in their wallet.


Actually, your calc seems to be way off, it will be more expensive. But for example let`s even say it stays like that. How many would be interested to spend so much in the game they just started? And after getting those 5 mils and seeing new ship they will want to buy sp again instead of waiting training to finish. How many would do repeat buy of plex for that? ANd with time because of diminishing mechanic it gets even more expensive. Do you think more than those who would give up as they do not want to keep paying extra to get all they want in fast manner? It will not work.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Skinzee
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1414 - 2015-10-16 07:29:23 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
So this is what I will do if this horrible Idea actually makes it to TQ:

I will create x new accounts with the following character slot layout:

1) gank alt
2) gank / infiltration alt
3) SP farm

Since you can now create gank alts within 16min you can start the queue on the SP farm alt right away.

SP farm alt will work like this:

1) buy PLEX from market and add gametime
2) train SP at max efficiency
3) extract and sell the SP
4) => 1)

This will start to simply produce ISK after ~2 months. From this point onwards you will have as many free alts as you want no matter the PLEX price, since the SP you produce by consuming this PLEX will always sell for more than they cost to produce this way.

Welcome to the age of effortless endless free gank alts which will even fill your wallet with the excess money they produce. So no more waiting for 15min after a gank, you just switch to a new alt in your pool or scale your fleet to as much DPS is required for the kill.

I know you could do this with the bazzar in theory, but it involves a lot more effort to actually sell those toons, which makes it impractical.

RIP PLEX prices, sorry

I am starting to like this idea after all.


Really? Your in Code. and from what ive seen... You all run around in Catalysts killing freighters... How long does it take to actually train for a Catalyst? 2hrs?

and your idea of creating a "SP farmer"... You still have to pay RL cash to transfer the SP... Are you going to spend £20 every 500k Skillpoints? that would be around £50/month + £10 sub fee.... Yeah... Sounds logical doesnt it? -.-

The fact that creating a 'boosted character' would cost a S**T ton of RL money... like, I mean... in the 1000's of £ to get anywhere near even 150m SP... How many people in the world do you think will actually SPEND £1000's on 1 character?

I wouldnt... I wouldnt anywhere near that... I would spend enough to get my character to 10-15m SP so I can fly a few ships decently and have fun... Rather than running around t1 cruiser and t1 guns and t1 drones doing missions just out of boredom!
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1415 - 2015-10-16 07:34:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
Skinzee wrote:
Skinzee wrote:
RL MONEY => PLEX => CHARACTER BAZAAR => 100M SP CHARACTER

RL MONEY => AUR => SKILLPOINT BOOST => 100M SP CHARACTER


Difference?

CHARACTERS BIRTH DATE
NO BAD CHARACTER HISTORY FOR SKILLPOINT BOOSTED CHARACTER.

Disagree? Why?


Skinzee wrote:
I have a question for ALL people that say this is a bad idea...


--- WHAT EFFECT WOULD IT HAVE ON YOU AS A PILOT IF THIS WOULD ACTUALLY GO LIVE? ---


There is already an option to buy 0-200m SP characters... Character Bazaar - (Thats Pay2Win if you look at it that way)


I've read through most of the post's this morning and still not seen a 'valid' argument against this idea. All I see is people saying "Dont, I will quit, wha wha wha", "Doing this will mean my 10year DOB means nothing wha wha wha"

If your crying this much about the transfer of SP for substantially more RL money than character bazaar, Why have none of you kicked off this much about buying characters with already 100's millions of SP?

ITS EXACTLY THE SAME... - Only difference is what ive stated above... and again, its the PvPer that are crying the most PURELY because of the DOB? Does it really mean that much to you that you cant PvP someone fairly? You only pick on people born after you? Thats kinda like bullying and cowardly if thats the case.



There is an obviois logic of how things get achieved. And if the only powerfull cobmination which is - left click of your mouse hit "pay" button. Then all the rest doesn't really matter.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Zafriel
MASS-Logistics
#1416 - 2015-10-16 07:34:59 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Ok to sum it up.


They want to introduce new feature which should help new players.

So when the new player comes he finds out that beside subscription he should spent 5x-10x that money to "get it going". Meaning that since the start he does not get the EVE. Eve is not about speeding things up and having it easy way. When that reality hits them a lot will just quit, since they were not prepared for that.


After that turbo start he realizes the game is quite slow unless he wants to keep spending more and more money to speed it until he gets comfortable with sp. Pity that in the most cases he will not have any idea what he needs/wants. Because that is what you learn while your skills are training. There is no Instant Start Up Course to teach them everything in couple of hours. Then disappointment comes. Guess what, 99% will quit. You will make them spend extra cash and give them false image of the game which will not lead to anything.

So the group this should help the most will actually have the least benefit of it. Ie the whole idea is a giant fail. There are people mentioning alliances who will buy sp to boost news etc. How many alliances accepts new players? How many puts effort in them? Eve Uni cannot fund something like this, other alliances/corps might eventually use it to affect some battle doctrine they are using, but there is low possibility due to high cost as alliances tend to have players with more sp.


There is definitely need to find a way to attract and keep new players, but this is not the proper one.


Meanwhile, some older players will utilize this function to spec new alts. Also some rich old players could try to get on top of total sp list and take off someone who committed himself for years to the game to be where he is. During that plenty of older/vet players will quit, disappointed in CCP. They will not be disappointed because "some newbs are overtaking them in sp". Let`s be realistic, there will be only minor amount of those who will spend a lot of cash to get high sp just for the sake of sp. There might be couple of contenders on top spots, i know some people can afford spending thousands of usd/eur on the game if they find that idea (to be top 1) in sp interesting.

People will be disappointed as they will see CCP making great mistakes. Changing FUNDAMENTALS of the game for something new, something they cannot even assume the result of, without considering side effects and without caring about their customers feelings. Meaning that if they are ready to do it once, they will do it again and people will not commit their time as they cannot know what to expect next in the long run. People will be disappointed as they will lose faith in CCP and company`s vision of the game. No one is going to trust with his money company which is inconsistent and on whom`s ideas and vision they can lean on or see themselves be part of.

So, even though some people have personal interests to be able to fix the mistakes they did (boofkinhoo, cry me a river about wrongly put 2mil sp) or to get an alt easier without being able to look at the whole picture as they can look up only on their own asses, this whole idea will strike whole player base in much worse sense.

And there could be even more side effects like rmt and who knows what else...


I hope I have drawn it nicely for everyone.


Summed up for all those who are not able to see how this develops in the long run.
Skinzee
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1417 - 2015-10-16 07:35:51 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
A single PLEX can take a new player up to 5 million SP or so and leave them with 300-400 million ISK in their wallet.


Please explain where you got this information from? There has not been given a price for the SP transfer and i'm sure as hell its going to cost ALOT more than PLEX to get as the SP is actually created from another player and then sold... not like a PLEX where you can buy it straight from CCP...

AND...

to get from Brand new character to 5million SP.. you would need NINE (9) of them... then higher SP you go, the less SP you actually get from the SP transfer...

I would imagine the SP transfers would cost around the same as x2 PLEX... So to boost a character from 0-5mil SP would be

Wait for it....

18 BILLION ISK... EIGHTEEN BILLION!!.... for 5M SP?... Would you pay that? seriously? Thats Equivalent to around £220...

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1418 - 2015-10-16 07:38:22 UTC
Interesting trend I'm seeing here.

The vets are cranking on about how new players will abuse this and newer players gettin' grumpy because the vets will abuse this.

I grew up in politics and it was often said that when both sides think they are being cheated in something, then you are probably doing something right. So, I think it may actually end up that CCP is doing this right since both the new and old players feel they will be screwed over by the other side taking advantage.

Mr Epeen Cool
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#1419 - 2015-10-16 07:38:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
If you buy a character you buy its history, its SP allocation and name. A new owner simply continues that character's story and journey. You can buy a character but you're not buying character advancement.

With the new system you cannibalise characters and ARE buying character advancement, you're circumventing the normal progression of a character and pay your way forward. JUST like how the ishukone Scorps circumvented the normal game and industry rules within the sandbox, and got shot down in the end (but only after a massive outcry).


There is a MASSIVE difference between the two and if one can't see that then that person is either blind, an idiot or thinks it would benefit him. Short term it might, long term it's yet another step down a path we shouldn't want to go.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1420 - 2015-10-16 07:39:33 UTC
Skinzee wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
A single PLEX can take a new player up to 5 million SP or so and leave them with 300-400 million ISK in their wallet.


Please explain where you got this information from? There has not been given a price for the SP transfer and i'm sure as hell its going to cost ALOT more than PLEX to get as the SP is actually created from another player and then sold... not like a PLEX where you can buy it straight from CCP...

AND...

to get from Brand new character to 5million SP.. you would need NINE (9) of them... then higher SP you go, the less SP you actually get from the SP transfer...

I would imagine the SP transfers would cost around the same as x2 PLEX... So to boost a character from 0-5mil SP would be

Wait for it....

18 BILLION ISK... EIGHTEEN BILLION!!.... for 5M SP?... Would you pay that? seriously? Thats Equivalent to around £220...



A PLEX will sell for about 1.2 billion ISK. How much does a 5 million SP character sell for on the character bazaar?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online