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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#1361 - 2015-10-16 05:06:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Burl en Daire
In a way this seems to take advantage of new players.

These new pilots get into the game for $20 and then see how much things cost so they spend $20 on a PLEX to buy cool ships only to learn they can't fly it without spending $20 -or whatever the price will be- to add SP to their toon. If they quit CCP has just milked them for some money just to learn they don't like the game, if my friend told me that about EVE I would have never signed up.

CCP needs to be mindful of how the things look to outsiders.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1362 - 2015-10-16 05:15:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
All this "concern" about new players (who stand to gain the most from the option value). Touching.

Burl en Daire wrote:
CCP needs to be mindful of how the things look to outsiders.

I, too, want to see the The Mittani dot com articles on it. I expect at least one for each side now!

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Morihei Akachi
Doomheim
#1363 - 2015-10-16 05:16:35 UTC
DeadNite wrote:
Those of you who disagree with a system like this are bafflingly disconnected from how utter hellish it was as a new player who was either stuck on tackle duty, ewar duty, or uninvited to fleet activities because you didn't have enough skill points to fly something "useful." This doesn't even begin to touch the subject of the fact that you were years away from the doctrine versatility that is required of a modern day eve player.

Sounds to me like you found yourself as a new player in the wrong kind of corp. Your personal experience is of course entirely valid, but it wasn't in any sense mine, and I don’t take entirely kindly to being told that it should have been. In my view, you would have had a better time getting to your 100 million if you had explored different play-styles along the way, rather than being obsessed with making yourself fit into the corset of what you apparently believe is the "modern day Eve player” (as if there were any such thing …). For my part, I have had an excellent time whilst training my current ± 50 million, and if I had to start over, I would do (most of) it this way again.

New players who are told that they first need god knows how many million SP before they can even begin to enjoy themselves are being lied to. That's the problem here.

"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and don’t belong in Eve Online. (And as for “scoped” …)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1364 - 2015-10-16 05:18:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Morihei Akachi wrote:
DeadNite wrote:
Those of you who disagree with a system like this are bafflingly disconnected from how utter hellish it was as a new player who was either stuck on tackle duty, ewar duty, or uninvited to fleet activities because you didn't have enough skill points to fly something "useful." This doesn't even begin to touch the subject of the fact that you were years away from the doctrine versatility that is required of a modern day eve player.

Sounds to me like you found yourself as a new player in the wrong kind of corp. Your personal experience is of course entirely valid, but it wasn't in any sense mine, and I don’t take entirely kindly to being told that it should have been. In my view, you would have had a better time getting to your 100 million if you had explored different play-styles along the way, rather than being obsessed with making yourself fit into the corset of what you apparently believe is the "modern day Eve player” (as if there were any such thing …). For my part, I have had an excellent time whilst training my current ± 50 million, and if I had to start over, I would do (most of) it this way again.

New players who are told that they first need god knows how many million SP before they can even begin to enjoy themselves are being lied to. That's the problem here.

Yeah. Totally with you here.

I enjoyed ewar duty. Jammed** you out ehhhhhhhh~~~


Now I ewar from a ship with a jumpdrive that is itself ewar immune. It's the logical progression to putting isk and sp on field.


**Now I believe the usual flavor is damps. Due to stacking penalties things like webs and painters are usually specialists.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1365 - 2015-10-16 05:22:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
Doesn't this mean I can just rip out 500000 skill points every time I train that much and use it to pay for my account? So I can reach a point of "not needing to train anything else" then sell 500k skillpoints every time I train that much, only paying cash to get the aurum for an extractor?

Hoping you don't make the transneural extractors the same price as a plex in aurum then. That would make extracting points not very useful to the extractor.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1366 - 2015-10-16 05:23:36 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Doesn't this mean I can just rip out 500000 skill points every time I train that much and use it to pay for my account? So I can reach a point of "not needing to train anything else" then sell 500k skillpoints every time I train that much?

Will be interesting to see how much AUR one of these costs and what the market isk price will be on sale, huh?

P.S. Start buying plex now so you can have all the AUR you need!

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Chrome Veinss
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1367 - 2015-10-16 05:26:00 UTC
Burl en Daire wrote:
In a way this seems to take advantage of new players.

These new pilots get into the game for $20 and then see how much things cost so they spend $20 on a PLEX to buy a cool ships only to learn they can't fly it without spending $20 -or whatever the price will be- to add SP to their toon. If they quit CCP has just milked them for some money just to learn they don't like the game, if my friend told me that about EVE I would have never signed up.

CCP needs to be mindful of how the things look to outsiders.


Those $60 will still be cheaper than paying a subscription for several months on top of grinding the isk to buy the ships though

Ive been playing for almost 3 years and I still cant fly many (most?) ships. I probably wouldnt have started playing if someone had told me i would still be lagging behind 3 years into the game, but I ended up liking it anyway
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1368 - 2015-10-16 05:27:38 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Doesn't this mean I can just rip out 500000 skill points every time I train that much and use it to pay for my account? So I can reach a point of "not needing to train anything else" then sell 500k skillpoints every time I train that much?

Will be interesting to see how much AUR one of these costs and what the market isk price will be on sale, huh?

P.S. Start buying plex now so you can have all the AUR you need!


I would like the idea that people who have played the game for years can live off of their extra skillpoints while still paying a bit for aurum to extract them. It's like a veteran discount. I can see plex soaring even higher though if it's that easy.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1369 - 2015-10-16 05:27:54 UTC
Chrome Veinss wrote:
Ive been playing for almost 3 years and I still cant fly many (most?) ships. I probably wouldnt have started playing if someone had told me i would still be lagging behind 3 years into the game, but I ended up liking it anyway

That's what vince draken and co would've liked, huh. OR BoB or whoever

Isk on field
SP on field

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#1370 - 2015-10-16 05:28:37 UTC
My thoughts are trying to follow a logical path, so :

If every veteran player knows this is bad, then CCP must know it too.

If CCP doesn't care what the vets are saying, then do they care if the vets quit?

Will new players with 'pay to win' mechanics actually increase the subscription rates?

In a game that's evolved into 'frigates online' who actually needs to buy SP anyway?

Has CCP left this huge business decision in the hands of a 14 year old kid?




The whole sales pitch sounds like it was well thought out, to be presented as, smoke and mirrors with a touch of humor and throw in some big scientific words for spice.

I see 68 pages of "NO" in this blog, but I don't feel like this is actually something the players get to vote on.
But IF my vote counts for anything at all, then it's a resounding NO!
I think it will devalue all the veteran characters, and eventually devalue the SP themselves in a similar fashion to META 1 modules. The market will be flooded with parted out characters and CCP is the only participant that will actually make money.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1371 - 2015-10-16 05:31:12 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
My thoughts are trying to follow a logical path, so :

If every veteran player knows this is bad, then CCP must know it too.

Depends which veteran plays you ask eh?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
kraken11 jensen
ROOKS AND KRAKENS
#1372 - 2015-10-16 05:37:26 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
My thoughts are trying to follow a logical path, so :

If every veteran player knows this is bad, then CCP must know it too.

Depends which veteran plays you ask eh?


agree
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#1373 - 2015-10-16 05:38:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Burl en Daire
Chrome Veinss wrote:
Burl en Daire wrote:
In a way this seems to take advantage of new players.

These new pilots get into the game for $20 and then see how much things cost so they spend $20 on a PLEX to buy a cool ships only to learn they can't fly it without spending $20 -or whatever the price will be- to add SP to their toon. If they quit CCP has just milked them for some money just to learn they don't like the game, if my friend told me that about EVE I would have never signed up.

CCP needs to be mindful of how the things look to outsiders.


Those $60 will still be cheaper than paying a subscription for several months on top of grinding the isk to buy the ships though

Ive been playing for almost 3 years and I still cant fly many (most?) ships. I probably wouldnt have started playing if someone had told me i would still be lagging behind 3 years into the game, but I ended up liking it anyway



You are correct but I was thinking of the players whom don't make it past the first paid month. Seems like a cash grab. CCP knows the retention rate isn't very high and it is like they are trying to get all they can while they are here. That is my only point. I don't like the idea but I do understand it will help new pilots and make CCP money so I'll just suck it up.

I've been here about 3.5 years and I did understand that it would be a slow burn so the wait isn't such a big deal to me. Most people are attached to their toons and this takes some of that away and I think that is why I don't like the idea.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#1374 - 2015-10-16 05:40:30 UTC
Synthiosis wrote:


In conclussion,


Is that when you have a eureka moment when someone clobbers you over the head with a brick ?
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1375 - 2015-10-16 05:46:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
RavenPaine wrote:
Will new players with 'pay to win' mechanics actually increase the subscription rates?


How is this pay to win when it can be done all in game with in-game monetary units? Plex and Aurum can be purchased, as usual, does this make it pay-to-win? Does having better skills mean you instantly win a fight? I don't think so, buying a couple of level 5 skills doesn't make you know how to orbit in range properly or manual-keep-at-range.

Half of the time any skill-intensive ships are only used in large fleets anyhow. This seems like it would just allow new players to get the right ships to join the vets faster. If you are worried about whether you have rapid firing 4 rather than 5 compared to the guy you are fighting in a 1v1 you are doing 1v1s wrong anyhow, and that's the only place differing skills between two players truly matter.

The only way having more skills grants you any "win" by having them is a statistical advantage in small-scale combat and the ability to fly a more varied set of ships. So basically, in 90% of scenarios, which are fleet combat scenarios, this wouldn't result in an instant win, and hence can't really be called "pay to win".

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1376 - 2015-10-16 05:49:41 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
My thoughts are trying to follow a logical path, so :

If every veteran player knows this is bad, then CCP must know it too.

If CCP doesn't care what the vets are saying, then do they care if the vets quit?
Only the vets that agree with you count as vets in this instance I suppose.

RavenPaine wrote:
The market will be flooded with parted out characters and CCP is the only participant that will actually make money.
Well, yes, CCP is the only one making money now, on the product they sell us access to, so that wouldn't be expected to change, nor is it a negative in any way. I'm not really sure if this was supposed to suggest a negative or be a statement of the obvious.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1377 - 2015-10-16 05:49:55 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
Will new players with 'pay to win' mechanics actually increase the subscription rates?


How is this pay to win when it can be done all in game with in-game monetary units? Plex and Aurum can be purchased, as usual, does this make it pay-to-win? Does having better skills mean you instantly win a fight? I don't think so, buying a couple of level 5 skills doesn't make you know how to orbit in range properly or manual-keep-at-range.

Half of the time any skill-intensive ships are only used in large fleets anyhow. This seems like it would just allow new players to get the right ships to join the vets faster. If you are worried about whether you have rapid firing 4 rather than 5 compared to the guy you are fighting in a 1v1 you are doing 1v1s wrong anyhow, and that's the only place differing skills between two players truly matter.

The thing is usually grind to win.

As mentioned, if they grind and buy SP packets and use it, at least they can't lose it (can't even be alphapodded anymore). If anything, I hope that the poor constantly clueless new people who fall into every pit the veterans always are so concerned about....

perhaps if they spend their grinding isk on some SP, it'll be better than currently where the only thing to spend on is loseable ships. But I'm sure the so concerned vets are fine with that....

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1378 - 2015-10-16 05:55:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
Will new players with 'pay to win' mechanics actually increase the subscription rates?


How is this pay to win when it can be done all in game with in-game monetary units? Plex and Aurum can be purchased, as usual, does this make it pay-to-win? Does having better skills mean you instantly win a fight? I don't think so, buying a couple of level 5 skills doesn't make you know how to orbit in range properly or manual-keep-at-range.

Half of the time any skill-intensive ships are only used in large fleets anyhow. This seems like it would just allow new players to get the right ships to join the vets faster. If you are worried about whether you have rapid firing 4 rather than 5 compared to the guy you are fighting in a 1v1 you are doing 1v1s wrong anyhow, and that's the only place differing skills between two players truly matter.

The thing is usually grind to win.

As mentioned, if they grind and buy SP packets and use it, at least they can't lose it (can't even be alphapodded anymore). If anything, I hope that the poor constantly clueless new people who fall into every pit the veterans always are so concerned about....

perhaps if they spend their grinding isk on some SP, it'll be better than currently where the only thing to spend on is loseable ships. But I'm sure the so concerned vets are fine with that....


The vast majority of veteran players already have all skills that give a major statistical advantage maxed anyhow, it's not like most players having those maxed would make the game unfair for anyone. The only "winners" would be new players in terms of statistics, and veterans in terms of ISK. New players wouldn't necessarily have to pay real money for anything anyways, they could just make ISK through the ways that exist already.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#1379 - 2015-10-16 05:58:46 UTC
How can someone really think by giving the player the possibilities of:

A) slow training
B) dump massive amounts of $ into a game you just started and know nothing about

will somehow magically improve the NPE? I say it will just make the devs look greedy like hell and no one will want to invest time into a game where you think you can only really improve with money. This is p2w at its worst and you can't compare it to the character bazaar we have now, because like Rise said, this is almost invisible for new players and you can't improve your own character with it.

Evil RatKid
S'Way
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1380 - 2015-10-16 06:01:49 UTC
And when the supply of new players started to dry up the players began cannibalizing their alts for SP's.


After re-reading the dev-blog - (which seems to me to be presented as if it's already decided that it's going through, once it can be decided just how much of this idea players will accept) while it may give a short term revenue boost, long term it can only add to the decline of the game.

Because PLEX is turned into Aurum this idea will push PLEX prices up a lot by players converting PLEX for these skill packets. Players who play by PLEX now will find they can no longer afford them - resulting in less players logged in and flying ships.

Often when an older games PCU starts to drop it can have a runaway snowball effect.
Given PCU numbers for EvE are well below where it used to be, I worry it can't afford to keep dropping players and still provide regular content updates - especially now there are some other products in the space mmo genre competing for players attention.

This whole thing makes you question what the point of the CSM is too when so many of them are against it, but CCP still seem to want to push this idea through regardless.
If you really don't want to listen to the people the playerbase voted to speak for them, then why have the CSM at all.