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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1341 - 2015-10-16 04:25:19 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Estevan Andrard wrote:
Ignoring what we going through, not taken into consideration where we came from, to dismiss the importance of contemplating the outcome, it is one of the things most people do and that is why democracy sucks. Because as part of the group, it does not make you feel any better to just say "I told you so".

This a metachapter of the book "The way I play is the right way to play" which is the bible of Carpie Diem players.
That last part is ironic coming from the person suggesting that the status quo is the only means of avoiding the eventual destruction of the skill system. Leaving that aside, there's nothing "we going through" that suggests your outcome is plausible, in isolation or not. That's why it becomes valid to not entertain it.

If not we just waste time entertaining every off the wall conclusion devoid of plausibility, which is anything but productive.


Never said the status quo is the best approach. I said the path it is going is not to make it better, than worse.

You gotta stop putting your conclusions of what I say as something I said.

The thing I formatted on your post is just plain wrong. There is plenty of suggestions to that outcome. Skill is being given like it was the end of times. The forum itself has documented the perception that high SP demanding ships and modules are being nerfed while low SP ships and modules are being buffed.

There is a Covert Ops ship you can use as soon as you may train Cloak to lvl 4.
There are new ships with compatible power to advanced versions of hulls that require only doubled tech I skills from two racial of a given hull.
There are new hulls that are not skill demanding altogether, with bonuses to the extent of those of higher class ships in some ships you can fly more quickly than the upper class ship.
There are modules and new attributes that render skill training not a must, like the last change to rigs, the module added to TQ already and the ones you see in SiSi.
And as far as going log on SISI not to PVP, and actually testing something, I sense that soon enough, there will be NPCs to take you by the hand. Just like WoW started on MoP.

That is reason enough to consider that skill and progression is being driven to the death row.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
Synthiosis
Perkone
Caldari State
#1342 - 2015-10-16 04:26:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Synthiosis
Here is my pro's and cons analyisis.

Why this could be good.

Quite simply put, if they manage to pull this off correctly, it could not only increase revenue, it could rebalance the game in favour of players who do not have large amounts of money to spend on aquiring highly skilled characters with real life cash. The fact of the matter is, being able to buy extreamly potent characters because you are finacially fortunate enough to do so, does have the inevitable dualistic repercussions of making pvp "harder" for poorer players with much less potent and diversely skills characters, who absoulutely don't need additonal factors working against them. While the factors of player skill and luck do their best to bridge the divide between strong and weak, i feel the main reason that ccp has come forward with this proposal, is because they may feel the game is edging towards P2W due to current nature of the Item & Character markets. Simply put, CCP wants more good fights, and less one sided ones.

Why this could be bad.

Less face it. This is only going to negatively affect character traders and the investors that horde characters. It's going to reduce the value of their stock dramatically, and anybody in this area of business probably doesn't like these changes one bit. However, I think if they are actively disputing any changes, i think it is INCREDIBLY selfish and they are denying potentially immensly positive benifits to the future equality and balance of Eve Online, simply for personal gain. I have no sympathy.

In conclussion,
the transnueral thingy sounds cool, but I would prefer there be a way to actively gain additional unallocated skill points through the pursuit of content. Maybe through the processing of player corpses or something with some balances. But being able to buy skill points instead of characters, doesn't really change much in regards to the negative consequences of extreme financial inequality within the game.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1343 - 2015-10-16 04:27:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Aerasia
Akako Higanjima wrote:
Which, I suppose, is why we're all here commenting. Blink
I'd say most people here are commenting just because they're scared some newbies Important Internets Spaceship Number will get closer to the veterans Important Internets Spaceship Number without the appropriate paying of dues and kissing of rings.
Estevan Andrard wrote:
That is reason enough to consider that skill and progression is being driven to the death row.
We can only hope.
Laodell
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#1344 - 2015-10-16 04:32:50 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Laodell wrote:
That's a very clever way to say you can now buy SP with cash after some exchanges and taxes.
This is actually backwards, you can sell SP with cash, not buy it. Also how does having SP to allocate remove or lessen the need to determine training?



If this isn't brilliant sarcasm can you please enlighten us as to what a transaction would look like where I am paying someone to take something from me ? i.e. 'Sell with Cash".

Also, if I am selling, then there has to be a buyer, or CCP would have to create an NPC class solely to Buy SP at a rate that CCP or a logarithm dictates.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1345 - 2015-10-16 04:33:30 UTC
Kinete Jenius wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Kinete Jenius wrote:
Oh man the potential to quickly make hordes of gank alts is scary...


You going to pay for the extra accounts too?

If so, then damn CCP is like an evil genius...more accounts more PLEX being sold...more money.

I already have 12 active accounts with 12 +4 month trained gank alts. So if anything this is a nerf to me as I wasted plex dual training for 3 months.



Sheesh, 6 of one, half dozen of the other....Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Utencil
Doomheim
#1346 - 2015-10-16 04:37:55 UTC
Just give us the option to change names... pls :)

Or even gender.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1347 - 2015-10-16 04:37:59 UTC
Such a lust for SP.... WHOOooooo~~~

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
DeadNite
Absolute Order XVIII
Absolute Will
#1348 - 2015-10-16 04:40:06 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
I like to post from time to time so i can't really tell you all what i think about your reaction here, but feel free to swing by reddit where we can talk openly about how incredibly wrong you are.

(this post is directed at players, not developers, i think the idea itself is amazing, and that comes from somebody with 162 million perfectly placed skill points that I've crafted over years. I can't even imagine how many people would have stayed if what they want to do was around when they tried EVE. The collected player reaction here is wrong, and not just wrong, its like a flailing spastic paint huffer on a weekend pass from rehab kinda wrong).


Not that I matter in the slightest as far as opinion goes, but I wholeheartedly agree with this statement after having never purchased a character and treading through 100+ million skill points. It was a long road and I would frankly not want to have to do it again in today's Eve.

Those of you who disagree with a system like this are bafflingly disconnected from how utter hellish it was as a new player who was either stuck on tackle duty, ewar duty, or uninvited to fleet activities because you didn't have enough skill points to fly something "useful." This doesn't even begin to touch the subject of the fact that you were years away from the doctrine versatility that is required of a modern day eve player.

For shame.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1349 - 2015-10-16 04:41:18 UTC
Utencil wrote:
Just give us the option to change names... pls :)

Or even gender.


No, not without some form of tracking such things.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1350 - 2015-10-16 04:42:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Estevan Andrard wrote:
Never said the status quo is the best approach. I said the path it is going is not to make it better, than worse.

You gotta stop putting your conclusions of what I say as something I said.

The thing I formatted on your post is just plain wrong. There is plenty of suggestions to that outcome. Skill is being given like it was the end of times. The forum itself has documented the perception that high SP demanding ships and modules are being nerfed while low SP ships and modules are being buffed.

There is a Covert Ops ship you can use as soon as you may train Cloak to lvl 4.
There are new ships with compatible power to advanced versions of hulls that require only doubled tech I skills from two racial of a given hull.
There are new hulls that are not skill demanding altogether, with bonuses to the extent of those of higher class ships in some ships you can fly more quickly than the upper class ship.
There are modules and new attributes that render skill training not a must, like the last change to rigs, the module added to TQ already and the ones you see in SiSi.
And as far as going log on SISI not to PVP, and actually testing something, I sense that soon enough, there will be NPCs to take you by the hand. Just like WoW started on MoP.

That is reason enough to consider that skill and progression is being driven to the death row.
SP on character creation is actually still not as high as at times in the past.
Pirate ships have always had 2 T1 racial skill requirements and had abilities beyond T1.
What ships are you referring to?
What module as well? Lets not forget most T2 mods added recently require lvl V skills whereas comparable counterparts if any had lvl IV (remote hull reps vs armor and shield counterparts).
Also based on what are these assumptions about NPC driven PvP coming from?
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1351 - 2015-10-16 04:45:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Estevan Andrard
Aerasia wrote:
Akako Higanjima wrote:
Which, I suppose, is why we're all here commenting. Blink
I'd say most people here are commenting just because they're scared some newbies Important Internets Spaceship Number will get closer to the veterans Important Internets Spaceship Number without the appropriate paying of dues and kissing of rings.
Estevan Andrard wrote:
That is reason enough to consider that skill and progression is being driven to the death row.
We can only hope.


For the first argument, that is not entirely accurate. I can see that many people, including not veterans, are generally concerned about how the boosting of new players is happening rather than the fact that it is happening.

I make a point of selling my chars each 2 years. I have 2013, 2011, 2009 chars moving around. I actually had the "Mind Blowning" moment of seeing a person being ganked by among others, two of my old chars.

This change by itself could be positive for me personally, as I could invest in milking SP from my chars instead of selling them. It is like just opening a milk market where previously you had to slaughter the cow. The problem is that I see the milk market as a booming one. People wll run for SP as there would be no tomorrow, and the aftermath of that is the inevitable destruction of SP mechanics. It has happened to more than a dozen mmos, and it was just like that.

Pirate Faction ships have been implemented not long ago.
Everything cited as "always existed", actually did not.
Just so you know, there was a long time in EVE history that we had not even plex.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
Madd Adda
#1352 - 2015-10-16 04:45:32 UTC
There's only 2 things i think that would need to change:

1.Biomass the character after extraction of SP. Keep the amount of SP each packet has, and diminishing returns on the higher SP characters the same.
2. Make it so that only characters that are of a certain age eligible for extraction. Let's say 1 year from the time of creation before you can use an extractor.

Carebear extraordinaire
marin marinere
Malakim Zealots
Angel Cartel
#1353 - 2015-10-16 04:47:41 UTC
Aerasia wrote:
Akako Higanjima wrote:
Which, I suppose, is why we're all here commenting. Blink
I'd say most people here are commenting just because they're scared some newbies Important Internets Spaceship Number will get closer to the veterans Important Internets Spaceship Number without the appropriate paying of dues and kissing of rings.
Estevan Andrard wrote:
That is reason enough to consider that skill and progression is being driven to the death row.
We can only hope.


Yeah, it's all rather arbitrary, but the fact of the matter is it isn't just kissing of rings, it's customer loyalty over time in return for prestige..... this screws with the "Over time" part as one can now simply pay ccp for x accounts/training slots and then start funneling that sp into a single character by giving ccp additional money, with the only investment needed being the base 5m sp which can also be bought from other individuals.
Maraner
The Executioners
#1354 - 2015-10-16 04:48:07 UTC
Firstly NO..

After that but please correct my logic if I miss something or it is faulty but haven't we already paid once to generate the SP on our accounts? Either through subscription or PLEX etc?

Is CCP saying that I don't really own the SP? that if all of a sudden the game enables movement of SP I need to pay CCP again for the privilege of moving stuff?

Jeez thanks a bunch for that. I've been paying to play this game for over a decade, and as a reward I can pay some more if I want to move the SP that I paid to generate in the first place to another character.

Unreal. Seriously. Just call it what it is, SP for PLEX or something.


1 PLEX = 1 mil SP. At least have some honesty about it all.
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1355 - 2015-10-16 04:49:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Estevan Andrard
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Estevan Andrard wrote:
Never said the status quo is the best approach. I said the path it is going is not to make it better, than worse.

You gotta stop putting your conclusions of what I say as something I said.

The thing I formatted on your post is just plain wrong. There is plenty of suggestions to that outcome. Skill is being given like it was the end of times. The forum itself has documented the perception that high SP demanding ships and modules are being nerfed while low SP ships and modules are being buffed.

There is a Covert Ops ship you can use as soon as you may train Cloak to lvl 4.
There are new ships with compatible power to advanced versions of hulls that require only doubled tech I skills from two racial of a given hull.
There are new hulls that are not skill demanding altogether, with bonuses to the extent of those of higher class ships in some ships you can fly more quickly than the upper class ship.
There are modules and new attributes that render skill training not a must, like the last change to rigs, the module added to TQ already and the ones you see in SiSi.
And as far as going log on SISI not to PVP, and actually testing something, I sense that soon enough, there will be NPCs to take you by the hand. Just like WoW started on MoP.

That is reason enough to consider that skill and progression is being driven to the death row.
SP on character creation is actually still not as high as at times in the past.
Pirate ships have always had 2 T1 racial skill requirements and had abilities beyond T1.
What ships are you referring to?
What module as well? Lets not forget most T2 mods added recently require lvl V skills whereas comparable counterparts if any had lvl IV (remote hull reps vs armor and shield counterparts).
Also based on what are these assumptions about NPC driven PvP coming from?


Lets discard everything that does not help in your argument.
Lets obliviate the fact that many things you cite are not long lived in eve.
If you need some context, you oughta know that even plex were inexistent for a long time in EVE history.

In fact it is a good idea. Let me just do the same you do and just plain deny things plain simple, with no reason whatsoever.

Better yet, lets just obliviate your non argument altogether. Have a nice day.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1356 - 2015-10-16 04:52:03 UTC
Maraner wrote:
Firstly NO..

After that but please correct my logic if I miss something or it is faulty but haven't we already paid once to generate the SP on our accounts? Either through subscription or PLEX etc?

Is CCP saying that I don't really own the SP? that if all of a sudden the game enables movement of SP I need to pay CCP again for the privilege of moving stuff?

Jeez thanks a bunch for that. I've been paying to play this game for over a decade, and as a reward I can pay some more if I want to move the SP that I paid to generate in the first place to another character.

Unreal. Seriously. Just call it what it is, SP for PLEX or something.


1 PLEX = 1 mil SP. At least have some honesty about it all.



Considering you don't "own" your character(s) yeah, you don't own the SP either. P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1357 - 2015-10-16 04:53:23 UTC
Maraner wrote:
Firstly NO..

After that but please correct my logic if I miss something or it is faulty but haven't we already paid once to generate the SP on our accounts? Either through subscription or PLEX etc?

Is CCP saying that I don't really own the SP? that if all of a sudden the game enables movement of SP I need to pay CCP again for the privilege of moving stuff?

Jeez thanks a bunch for that. I've been paying to play this game for over a decade, and as a reward I can pay some more if I want to move the SP that I paid to generate in the first place to another character.

Unreal. Seriously. Just call it what it is, SP for PLEX or something.


1 PLEX = 1 mil SP. At least have some honesty about it all.


No their are not. They are saying they will start allowing people to sell SP insteand of having to sell the whole char.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1358 - 2015-10-16 04:56:37 UTC
Estevan Andrard wrote:
Lets discard everything that does not help in your argument.
Lets obliviate the fact that many things you cite are not long lived in eve.
If you need some context, you oughta know that even plex were inexistent for a long time in EVE history.

Or you could answer the questions rather than misdirect.

Beyond the questions I addressed your points directly; the answers don't match your position. Stating facts doesn't discard anything. Obfuscating on the other hand is effectively admitting you don't have a point.
Skebet
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#1359 - 2015-10-16 04:58:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Skebet
To me the saddest part of all of this is that CCP itself doesn't seem to understand that Eve is not a spaceship simulation game; that is, characters are not meaningless bags of fungible SP. Eve is a role-playing game; each character has a unique history, reputation, quirks, oddities - a real personality of its own. If you want to control a character completely, make it yourself. Buying and selling entire characters works because each character is preserved as a unique entity. Devolving characters into sacks of points that can be bought and sold with granularity will completely destroy any sense of identity and, perhaps worse, any individual sense of progression.

Hilmar, the rest of you, please see what it means to create a true role playing universe and then potentially destroy its sense of place and soul. Realize this is a mistake and don't do it. The long term consequences will be dire. Please believe us and stop this plan.

With love and respect
Skebet
Marech Bhayanaka
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1360 - 2015-10-16 04:59:07 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Marech Bhayanaka wrote:
The only thing that makes the loooooong wait for skills to train bearable, is the knowledge that every other character was made exactly the same way. Make it possible to buy SP and suddenly everyone who cannot afford them will feel like a second class citizen, watching new characters fly past them in abilities.

Even if the number of people actually doing it is small, the perception will be large. Don't underestimate how this will destroy the feeling of accomplishment people have when they get each new level 5, or how the wait for their next one will seem intolerable when they know others are paying to bypass it.

Marech.


Passage of time happens without any human intervention at all.

The "sense of accomplishment" for simply letting time exist and take place makes no sense since it would have happened with or without you.

Using "time" as the basis for accessibility is ********. That would be like saying whoever the oldest person alive is the one who gets to rule the world because since he's simply existed longest, he's entitled to the best of the best benefits.


lol @ the idea of "hooray I did nothing except wait and I'm rewarded!!!!"

haha that's so insane.


This feeling is common. Labelling it insane doesn't make it go away. CCP is playing with fire here.

Marech.