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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Kytheria
Executable Inc.
#1321 - 2015-10-16 04:05:14 UTC
Soooo what you're saying is that I could break my 150m sp toon down into 3 perfectly focused 50m sp toons for the cost of cash.

What then was the entire point of training for this long?

It's been said for 60+ pages this is a BAD idea CCP. Shocked
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1322 - 2015-10-16 04:06:38 UTC
Akako Higanjima wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I'm sorry this sounds like complete horseshit to me. It sounds like you assume the supply of SP on the market will be infinite when in fact it simply cannot be.


Of course it won't be; that's a given. I suppose the point I was trying to make was that of the "x" number of SP Packets that become available, the bulk of them will go to corps/alliances that do have an overabundance of disposable ISK - leaving players in smaller, start-up corps, where funding is much tighter, at a distinct disadvantage.



Don't be so sure. Yeah NS alliances can be rolling in ISK, but they may not want to spend it on SP packets for line members. They might, but I doubt it.

And station traders can make buckets full of ISK too.

To be quite honest these kind of market outcomes are extremely hard to predict.

I think the biggest criticism is that a super rich alliance could, given enough SP on the market, try to use it to pre-position alts to move a cap fleet quickly and bypass fatigue mechanics giving them somewhat of an advantage.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Asveron Durr
Vandanian Order
Greater Itamo Mafia
#1323 - 2015-10-16 04:06:45 UTC
Wow, just wow........

CCP have you learned nothing from the summer of rage?

What if that became a year of rage?

Implementing this Skill Packet is NOTHING but the "Golden Ammo" idea CCP that you promised us would never happen.
Well as much as i despise certain groups or organiztions for their "roleplay" aspects....i will simply wait and see what you do CCP.......but if this gets implemented....

I might have to reconsider my wish to be here for a few more years and join them....only I wont be doing exactly what they are doing.........
Implement this and i will be sure to use all my accounts i own an force you to ban me.....noobies, vets, freighters, barges, exhumers....implementation will be sure to see how much we can destroy and how many carebears we can bomb/force from the game...because at that point i at least simply will not care about the consequences of mass destruction to include rookie systems.

in short.....this bullshit is a slap in the face for ALL Veterans
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1324 - 2015-10-16 04:07:08 UTC
Veishe wrote:
Buying or re-locating SP means

YOU CAN GET REIMBURSED YOUR MISTAKE WITH RL MONEY.


So i think this can be cool nonlogically, but let's think a little bit more.



What do bros think If someone can clean wrong killboard, corp history by just paying isk?

This idea has same logic with CCP's disgusting idea; to allow reimburse mistake or loss with real money.



Now you bros will understand what is problem, what is wrong.


Probably some pvp nut will tell you that Skills are not Kills, they just share spelling. That is the logic for argumentation here.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1325 - 2015-10-16 04:07:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Ocelot Ehecatl wrote:
I understand the old character transfer system is not perfect, but by God ! ..this is one of the worst new age ideas you have presented us with. Whatever made you think of this one....?

The returns are diminished for veteran players but do you understand the amount of isk they have. They are going to suck it up and get where they want to be. Time based skill training was one of the "unique" features of EVE...and I used to remember the times when i set up my alarm just to wake up and set up new skill to keep the Training Queue running. This got redundant with the new skill queue a.k.a made it easier "dumbing it down" but for pete's sake this is not what I want to see. Unallocated Skill points for Sale ..... This is bad CCP , real. bad. idea !!

Like someone here commented : Character ages and birth dates will become completely meaningless...so no more " Oh look there goes a 2004 character , bet he has a ton of skillpoints" . It was things like this that made EVE so wonderful for a new player. tsk tsk ......CCP


Even if they have a bunch of ISK unless the price of SP on the market is very low they'll find the character bazaar a much better deal. So...what is the problem?

Oh and birthdates are only loosely correlated with SP. I have a character older than this one but who only has 821,000 SP. I switched over to a combat oriented character when I found out how bad mining sucked.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1326 - 2015-10-16 04:10:43 UTC
Kytheria wrote:
Soooo what you're saying is that I could break my 150m sp toon down into 3 perfectly focused 50m sp toons for the cost of cash.

What then was the entire point of training for this long?

It's been said for 60+ pages this is a BAD idea CCP. Shocked



No seriously, this must be the dumbest thing you've ever posted.

If you trained all that on one alt why would you ever care to break it into 3? Even then, maybe you DO want to break it into 3 decent skilled pilots to vanish into the ether of eve and leave your old life behind. There are reasons to do either but there is no benefit gained either way.

In fact, not to suggest that you didn't read or understand this at all, but if you broke you 150 million sp dude down into 3rds you'd end up with way less due to diminishing returns. You would more likely end up with three 25 million skill point alts after diminishing returns gets you.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1327 - 2015-10-16 04:11:56 UTC
Asveron Durr wrote:


in short.....this bullshit is a slap in the face for ALL Veterans


No its not stop being a baby.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1328 - 2015-10-16 04:12:15 UTC
Estevan Andrard wrote:
Ignoring what we going through, not taken into consideration where we came from, to dismiss the importance of contemplating the outcome, it is one of the things most people do and that is why democracy sucks. Because as part of the group, it does not make you feel any better to just say "I told you so".

This a metachapter of the book "The way I play is the right way to play" which is the bible of Carpie Diem players.
That last part is ironic coming from the person suggesting that the status quo is the only means of avoiding the eventual destruction of the skill system. Leaving that aside, there's nothing "we going through" that suggests your outcome is plausible, in isolation or not. That's why it becomes valid to not entertain it.

If not we just waste time entertaining every off the wall conclusion devoid of plausibility, which is anything but productive.
Morihei Akachi
Doomheim
#1329 - 2015-10-16 04:12:22 UTC
Just adding my two cents here: I’m against this. For me it devalues the game-experience. Eve used to be built around denying instant gratification, because the experience of not getting what you (believe you) want instantly is actually more rewarding in the long run. This proposal abandons that principle. It makes Eve seem cheaper, more infantile. I'd be sorry to see things go this way.

"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and don’t belong in Eve Online. (And as for “scoped” …)
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1330 - 2015-10-16 04:12:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Kytheria wrote:
Soooo what you're saying is that I could break my 150m sp toon down into 3 perfectly focused 50m sp toons for the cost of cash.

What then was the entire point of training for this long?

It's been said for 60+ pages this is a BAD idea CCP. Shocked



Nope, after 5 million you only get to recover 80% of the remaining SP. Apparently decreasing returns is completely lost on you. Roll

Are most EVE players just this bad at math?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Slax01
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1331 - 2015-10-16 04:12:31 UTC
I am personally against this idea. I just want to log my vote with CCP just in case it matters.

I read over the first 12 pages of this thread, then skimmed the next 20 and I can say that all of the arguments, for and against, have already been made.

If you want to do something to help new players stay with the game, double the skills training speed for the first 10mil SP, even quadruple it, and continue to improve the training missions, maybe put together a new skill browser/planner so that they can visualize their training path better, even throw in a fitting tool for ships and modules you don't own.

Don't focus on retaining new players at the cost of losing old ones, and don't underestimate how distasteful this idea is to long term players.
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#1332 - 2015-10-16 04:13:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Estevan Andrard
Teckos Pech wrote:
Ocelot Ehecatl wrote:
I understand the old character transfer system is not perfect, but by God ! ..this is one of the worst new age ideas you have presented us with. Whatever made you think of this one....?

The returns are diminished for veteran players but do you understand the amount of isk they have. They are going to suck it up and get where they want to be. Time based skill training was one of the "unique" features of EVE...and I used to remember the times when i set up my alarm just to wake up and set up new skill to keep the Training Queue running. This got redundant with the new skill queue a.k.a made it easier "dumbing it down" but for pete's sake this is not what I want to see. Unallocated Skill points for Sale ..... This is bad CCP , real. bad. idea !!

Like someone here commented : Character ages and birth dates will become completely meaningless...so no more " Oh look there goes a 2004 character , bet he has a ton of skillpoints" . It was things like this that made EVE so wonderful for a new player. tsk tsk ......CCP


Even if they have a bunch of ISK unless the price of SP on the market is very low they'll find the character bazaar a much better deal. So...what is the problem?

Oh and birthdates are only loosely correlated with SP. I have a character older than this one but who only has 821,000 SP. I switched over to a combat oriented character when I found out how bad mining sucked.


It was said here, and it is a common knowledge. If I have money, and the difference is not that high, I rather have my own char skill boosted for more ISK than buy "another self" for less. It is only one point.

Skill tokes allow you to mold your SP as you wish, rather than choose a premade not always to your likeing.

You may reconsider a bogus skill boost if it comes with a ugly char, stupid name, a race or bloodline you dont like.

It is very unwise to argument under the impression that your set of values applies to everyone else's.

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1333 - 2015-10-16 04:16:35 UTC
Estevan Andrard wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Ocelot Ehecatl wrote:
I understand the old character transfer system is not perfect, but by God ! ..this is one of the worst new age ideas you have presented us with. Whatever made you think of this one....?

The returns are diminished for veteran players but do you understand the amount of isk they have. They are going to suck it up and get where they want to be. Time based skill training was one of the "unique" features of EVE...and I used to remember the times when i set up my alarm just to wake up and set up new skill to keep the Training Queue running. This got redundant with the new skill queue a.k.a made it easier "dumbing it down" but for pete's sake this is not what I want to see. Unallocated Skill points for Sale ..... This is bad CCP , real. bad. idea !!

Like someone here commented : Character ages and birth dates will become completely meaningless...so no more " Oh look there goes a 2004 character , bet he has a ton of skillpoints" . It was things like this that made EVE so wonderful for a new player. tsk tsk ......CCP


Even if they have a bunch of ISK unless the price of SP on the market is very low they'll find the character bazaar a much better deal. So...what is the problem?

Oh and birthdates are only loosely correlated with SP. I have a character older than this one but who only has 821,000 SP. I switched over to a combat oriented character when I found out how bad mining sucked.


It was said here, and it is a common knowledge. If I have money, and the difference is not that high, I rather have my own char skill boosted for more ISK than buy "another self" for less. It is only one point.

Skill tokes allow you to mold your SP as you wish, rather than choose a premade not always to your likeing.

You may reconsider a bogus skill boost if it comes with a ugly char, stupid name, a rece or bloodline you dont like.

It is very unwise to argument under the impression that your set of values applies to everyone else's.


No, this is just nonsense. If you are buying a character over 5 million SP you will do better in the character bazaar in terms of ISK/SP. The decreasing returns means that the more SP you try to buy the higher ISK/SP you'll spend and if you try to go over 80 million the cost is very high.

Really, learn some math.

Oh, and this change will likely add discipline to the character bazaar. Being sloppy in your SP training if you are selling characters will cost you since buying SP is an option.

Might want to try some economics too.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
marin marinere
Malakim Zealots
Angel Cartel
#1334 - 2015-10-16 04:16:39 UTC  |  Edited by: marin marinere
This is a journey into money... loads of money. Twisted


I'm pleased that it would allow for easier development of my character such that it can have a reasonable about of sp without too much worry over specialization, but depending on the specifics such ease might undermine the entire investment that has gone into the development of a decent character formerly, and potentially degrade the overall experience going forward despite taking some small satisfaction initially. I'm also somewhat concerned about the degree of abuse that could occur even with diminishing returns for both the impacts of said potential min-maxing and their effect on the market.
Akako Higanjima
Nightbloom
#1335 - 2015-10-16 04:18:38 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Don't be so sure. Yeah NS alliances can be rolling in ISK, but they may not want to spend it on SP packets for line members. They might, but I doubt it.

And station traders can make buckets full of ISK too.

To be quite honest these kind of market outcomes are extremely hard to predict.

I think the biggest criticism is that a super rich alliance could, given enough SP on the market, try to use it to pre-position alts to move a cap fleet quickly and bypass fatigue mechanics giving them somewhat of an advantage.


I agree. It just seems to me like the entire thing, in its present state, opens far too many avenues for exploitation - though I'll admit that my view is probably somewhat limited, as I'm not privy to what goes on in the logistics of handling supercaps and the like. From my position down here, fairly low on the SP totem pole, as it were... I wouldn't even say it's a bad idea. Just one that needs some reworking and balancing. Needs some checks to be put into place.

Should the whole shebang be scrapped in its entirety? No. I've lost corp members due to their frustration with how long it takes to do anything meaningful, and I'd be more than willing to pass along some of my unused SP to them, so long as some sound mechanics for doing so were in place. But the system definitely needs a bit of... finesse and retouching, before it should be implemented outright.

Which, I suppose, is why we're all here commenting. Blink
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1336 - 2015-10-16 04:19:04 UTC
Slax01 wrote:
I am personally against this idea. I just want to log my vote with CCP just in case it matters.

I read over the first 12 pages of this thread, then skimmed the next 20 and I can say that all of the arguments, for and against, have already been made.

If you want to do something to help new players stay with the game, double the skills training speed for the first 10mil SP, even quadruple it, and continue to improve the training missions, maybe put together a new skill browser/planner so that they can visualize their training path better, even throw in a fitting tool for ships and modules you don't own.

Don't focus on retaining new players at the cost of losing old ones, and don't underestimate how distasteful this idea is to long term players.


Sorry doubling SP training for new characters up to 1.6 million SP (IIRC) was a thing, but was removed because older players were abusing it.

And frankly I have seen few valid arguments against it except those based on ignorance from people who pretty obviously did not read the dev blog.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1337 - 2015-10-16 04:19:52 UTC
Oh man the potential to quickly make hordes of gank alts is scary...
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1338 - 2015-10-16 04:21:08 UTC
Akako Higanjima wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Don't be so sure. Yeah NS alliances can be rolling in ISK, but they may not want to spend it on SP packets for line members. They might, but I doubt it.

And station traders can make buckets full of ISK too.

To be quite honest these kind of market outcomes are extremely hard to predict.

I think the biggest criticism is that a super rich alliance could, given enough SP on the market, try to use it to pre-position alts to move a cap fleet quickly and bypass fatigue mechanics giving them somewhat of an advantage.


I agree. It just seems to me like the entire thing, in its present state, opens far too many avenues for exploitation - though I'll admit that my view is probably somewhat limited, as I'm not privy to what goes on in the logistics of handling supercaps and the like. From my position down here, fairly low on the SP totem pole, as it were... I wouldn't even say it's a bad idea. Just one that needs some reworking and balancing. Needs some checks to be put into place.

Should the whole shebang be scrapped in its entirety? No. I've lost corp members due to their frustration with how long it takes to do anything meaningful, and I'd be more than willing to pass along some of my unused SP to them, so long as some sound mechanics for doing so were in place. But the system definitely needs a bit of... finesse and retouching, before it should be implemented outright.

Which, I suppose, is why we're all here commenting. Blink


Oh, and SP/ISK the character bazaar is the better deal. If anything this will tighten up the character bazaar--i.e. "wasted" SP will be penalized due to this change.

This will result in 2 effects:

1. People who train characters for sale will pay more attention to the skills they train and not waste any
2. Characters with wasted SP will be cheaper...and even such characters could still be viable for people.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1339 - 2015-10-16 04:22:25 UTC
Kinete Jenius wrote:
Oh man the potential to quickly make hordes of gank alts is scary...


You going to pay for the extra accounts too?

If so, then damn CCP is like an evil genius...more accounts more PLEX being sold...more money.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1340 - 2015-10-16 04:23:33 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Kinete Jenius wrote:
Oh man the potential to quickly make hordes of gank alts is scary...


You going to pay for the extra accounts too?

If so, then damn CCP is like an evil genius...more accounts more PLEX being sold...more money.

I already have 12 active accounts with 12 +4 month trained gank alts. So if anything this is a nerf to me as I wasted plex dual training for 3 months.