These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1061 - 2015-10-15 23:30:54 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Hence the statement "and you're willing to accept a 10% ROI on the SP itself."

The math I did accounted for that, 200m SP is 195m transferable @ 10% to another 200mSP char is a 219.5m SP char and 5m SP leftover nontransferable on the first char.

How much AUR will all the packets it takes to transfer that cost?
If there was an aur price listed I missed it, but that's 390 extractors so... I'd assume quite a bit.
Smendrik Von'Smendle
HighSecers United
#1062 - 2015-10-15 23:31:43 UTC
I like this idea, only slightly modified.

What if you could do this but the person that extracts the SP's only gets a time based benefit for the skills extracted.

I.E. I package all of my mining skills because I no longer need/want them and then sell them for mega ISK and the person who extracts them gets a double/triple/quad speed rate for training in mining?
Scott Dracov
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1063 - 2015-10-15 23:32:13 UTC
I vote NO to this.


Has anyone here who tried eve long ago on a trial and then stopped wished they kept training for all those years? Basically wished they had given CCP money every month for years even if they were not playing?

And then come back and never stopped training because this time they were not going to miss any skill training time like they did last time even if their play time is limited?

How will this change affect the thousands of skill que online players over the long term in their dedication to keep giving CCP money when the hard limit of skill versus time is removed?


Think about this and the power of the skill training system with its current unchangeable limit on SP/time on a single toon in how much it motivates even inactive players to pay CCP for EVE.

Then remove this incentive or give the perception that you are removing it.


Fair thee well is all I can say if you do not see the danger in this CCP.
There is a lighthouse with its lights blazing in front of you but you seem to not see the rocks below it and are looking at it like light at the end of a tunnel.

It will turn into your own shipwreck.
Marsha Mallow
#1064 - 2015-10-15 23:32:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Marsha Mallow
Mag's wrote:
Mag's is also my main, but thanks anyway.

You seem nice regardless of Sp or 'SKIN' ingame, and being around for a while hones the eve humour
But you cut newbros down faster than they have time to pick up the lingo
There are some horriable loops of ego irony i don't even want to tread on
But there are few women here - and we're not collectively dim

And I'll still ask, when was the last time any of you showed some SKIN?

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Pronoes
#1065 - 2015-10-15 23:36:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Pronoes
It's not the best idea but I'm not sure of the knee jerk reactions going on in here.

I imagine it would cost an absolute fortune to create your perfect character. Depending on the pricing, I highly doubt there will be thousands of super pilots running around. Only CCP know the spread of wealth on characters and while I know that some have trillions, some have 100's of billions, I'd guess that the majority don't have anywhere near approaching those kinds of amounts.

Personally I would like to see something along the same lines but not quite so open to abuse. I'd love to be able to refund my mining skills and reallocate them where I see fit. They should stay on the same character they were accrued on. Abuse preventative measures would have to be in place. Reallocating SP on the fly mid fight to give an edge over a certain opponent would be ridiculous of course. However, consuming a neural remap / consuming plex / ratio degradation of SP to unallocated SP / time limits etc would be the most prudent course.

If I could pay 1 or 2 plex, visit a memory reallocation clinic in a station somewhere, siphon/drain 6m SP from science and receive 3m unallocated to spend where I want, I'd be happy with that. Being able to do something like that once every year / 6 month / 3 month would be useful.

Or maybe quite literally have a siphon. You can choose to drain 6m SP for 3m. But you have to choose where to allocate it there and then. Rather than being instantaneous, you lose 200,000 SP a day and "learn" your new chosen skills at a rate of 100,000 a day for example.

Or require the pilot to be docked up at a station for a week etc etc. Anything that would make it non-trivial to accomplish.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1066 - 2015-10-15 23:36:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Teckos Pech wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:


Hence the statement "and you're willing to accept a 10% ROI on the SP itself."

The math I did accounted for that, 200m SP is 195m transferable @ 10% to another 200mSP char is a 219.5m SP char and 5m SP leftover nontransferable on the first char.


So you cannot drain a 200 million SP character and create a 200 million SP character with the drained SP. Based on my rather low price estimates...this would likely cost 145 billion ISK to get a 200 million SP character.

To get that last 120 million SP to get to a total of 200 million SP, you'd need SP packets with 1.2 billion SP. You'd literally need to suck dry 10 characters with 120 million SP. Good luck with that and doing it for just 145 billion.
Her statement was, I thought, that she had 2 200m SP characters and wanted to combine them, thus I did the math on a combination. The total SP beforehand is 400mSP between the 2, the total afterwards is 224.5.

As for RL cost or aur/isk, I just went with the claim she made that she was willing and able and tried to give perspective on what it would take.

I never claimed a character was going from 0 to 219.5m SP, rather from 200m SP to 219.5m SP. Maybe I misunderstood the scenario?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#1067 - 2015-10-15 23:37:00 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Mag's is also my main, but thanks anyway.

You seem nice regardless of Sp or 'SKIN' ingame, and being around for a while hones the eve humour
But you cut newbros down faster than they have time to pick up the lingo
There are some horriable loops of ego irony i don't even want to tread on
But there are few women here - and we're not collectively dim

And I'll still ask, when was the last time any of you showed some SKIN?
I was in game a week or so ago, helping a friend. Just before that I had to remove my -10 status, in order to help a friend out in high sec. Didn't like doing it mind and now I feel naked.

But seeing as I pay my sub, what relevance does it have when I play?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Draugo Rana
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
#1068 - 2015-10-15 23:37:03 UTC

I really don't understand the "You already have character bazaar, why do you mind so much making it more accessible, blunt, abusable, exploitable and with less consequences?" argument.

So if I think that the character bazaar is a bad idea but I am willing to live with it because it's been there forever and is pretty much status quo then I should now be willing to just accept any fundamental change in this game aspect with open arms?

That's a rather ridiculous argument.

Masuat'aa Matari is recruiting Minmatar freedom fighters
Horus V
The Destined
#1069 - 2015-10-15 23:38:07 UTC
People who trained skills for more than 10 years must now feel very stupid lol

V
darkchild's corpse
Rens Nursing Home
#1070 - 2015-10-15 23:39:11 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
This isn't taking ANYTHING away from anyone, it's only giving more to those who don't have.



this is (more or less) true but not the point.

i think many ppl in here forget that something like this will also be possible with the new thing:

imagine you are camped inside a station with a few ppl and noone of you can use jammers for example. or a logistic or whatever you would need to win. usually you would have to buy the skill and train it until you are good enough. the other option would be to buy a character who can already use/fly it. none of these solutions works instantly. but if you are rich, you can simply buy skillpoints instantly and turn the whole situation. and this is one example where this system would give more to those who don't have wich is just not right.

Kinda suits the SP trading discussion (lyrics in description)
Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1071 - 2015-10-15 23:39:41 UTC
Horus V wrote:
People who trained skills for more than 10 years must now feel very stupid lol


Like those people that researched BPO's forever.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#1072 - 2015-10-15 23:39:44 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
You seem to be assuming no cost to the extractors. There will be market competition for those as well. Probably more competition than seen on the bazaar for characters. Sure you can train those alts and transfer the SP to yourself, using an extractor for every 500/400/200/50k SP the recipient character will get out of them. But it will also only be for SP over 5 million on each of those alts, so there will always be a base of 5 million SP sitting on those alts that can never be removed.

I dunno. Until we know the value in Aurum for the extractors, and then try and determine the price on the markets as supply and demand goes to work, we have no idea how cost effective this will be for anyone. Let alone what any of it might mean for actual gameplay in EVE. Probably very little.


Buy extractors for Aurum (Which is real money)
Buy 10 new Accounts for PLEX (which is real money)
Start training those and have your very own Super in a month.

The only place where the market comes into play is when you buy the skillbooks, and they are NPC seeded.

Yes, it will probably be more expensive than buying a character from the CB, but that doesn't help. Or would you say, that P2W is less terrible if it's just expensive enough?


You're correct, someone could buy their way into a super/titan and the char to use it. And that differs from the last 5 years how?

If people are so up in arms over this, then why aren't they shouting erryday about removing PLEX from the game? This is not the straw that breaks the Eve camel's back. The net effects of this are virtually no different than what has existed for years now. Probably just a transfer of effect from one bucket to another, but no noticeable increases in what it actually means in the game as far as player activity. Then again, we may not see those until well after the fact. Just like we did with PLEX and the explosion in alts. I'm not saying you're wrong, but this level of thread rage (in aggregate, not you) is way more associated with emotional disdain for anything the sniffs of P2W than what it probably really means to the game.


I think you kinda missed the point with PLEX: Try reading what I wrote on Page 39 and then tell me this isn't going to change anything:

Maximus Aerelius wrote:

First you devalued my character by introducing Multi Character Training (MCT). When it was single character training you knew someone had spent their 30 days of game time training that character and couldn't train another on that account. That added value to the Character. To do MCT you attached it to PLEX which put PLEX prices up.

Next you introduced the NEX store with cosmetic items for the price of Aurum. Funny thing that PLEX converts to Aurum and so PLEX prices went up.

After that you introduced SKINs which lets players customise their ships. All good, except again you attached that to Aurum. Again PLEX can be converted into Aurum and so PLEX prices are currently at 1.2bil (Source: EVE Central)

Now we've covered that, let's see why PLEX was introduced: To allow people who are time rich but cash poor to be able to play the game and pay for game time from their in-game wallets. Currently a low skilled Character (<5mil SP) won't be able to afford 1.2bil to buy a PLEX to do any of this malarkey with SP extraction\injection.

You're pricing them out of the market FFS. More of a concern is that PLEX isn't being used for what it was brought in-game for and is just another money stream that's turning into a torrent for CCP.

Just change it's name to something more meaningful rather than the "30 Day Pilot's License Extension" and separate Aurum from PLEX. Class it as "Monetary Tiercide" if you want but PLEX should be for Game Time and all the other bumpf you're pushing onto PLEX (and the prices) should be Aurum

Suggestion: If you're short on cash just increase the price of subscription a little. Big smile


The other stuff on the slippery slope to microtransactions, P2W, etc have all been well covered in and out of rage by others.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1073 - 2015-10-15 23:40:03 UTC
Draugo Rana wrote:

I really don't understand the "You already have character bazaar, why do you mind so much making it more accessible, blunt, abusable, exploitable and with less consequences?" argument.

So if I think that the character bazaar is a bad idea but I am willing to live with it because it's been there forever and is pretty much status quo then I should now be willing to just accept any fundamental change in this game aspect with open arms?

That's a rather ridiculous argument.
How is it more abusable? Is having the ability to accrue SP faster really an abuse/exploit? Also what consequence is missing?
Scott Dracov
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1074 - 2015-10-15 23:40:12 UTC
Horus V wrote:
People who trained skills for more than 10 years must now feel very stupid lol



New players like myself that are planning to train for ten more years are changing their minds.
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1075 - 2015-10-15 23:41:10 UTC
This is the worst idea I've seen during my time in EVE.


  • I can easily imagine alt accounts (or very high SP accounts) finding a side profession in constantly training skills in demand and then selling them on market. Such source of SP can then turn the whole idea into large a pay-to-win market.
  • This has a potential to scale well beyond the current SP transfer via character bazaar. As such it has a substantially stronger pay-to-win taste to it than the character bazaar.
  • It removes a huge deal of value from choices you made when developing a character. In bazaar you buy/sell whole characters, with their pros and their cons. Here you trade SP like any other commodity.
  • The idea is very poorly motivated. Reading the blog I keep asking myself: why you dismiss improving character market? Perhaps it might need a large web feature, but if you can pursue task as large as new structures, or sov revamp (or the proposed skill market for that matter), then why not better character bazaar? Character naming is not an answer either: to me, changing character name is less detrimental than the skill market. Perhaps its SP distribution then? Well, that is actually a feature that makes skill choices matter (even if in the price of the sold character). To be honest, reading the motivation I can't stop thinking that the main point is to monetize SP on a more flexible terms than character market allows. In the short term it might be a fresh source of income, but it will also spell the decline of this game.


You are going to alienate a significant fraction of EVE players base. This game has a relatively mature players, many of whom will not go well with such ruthless monetization of game experience and trivialization of character development.
Chroniccandy 420
Doomheim
#1076 - 2015-10-15 23:41:14 UTC
I really don't like the idea of letting 6 month old toons run around with as many sp as my toon that took 8 years to get to its current position. But I do like the idea of reallocating sp.

How about if character SP can be borrowed from another character on the same account. And a percentage of the characters sp. ex: 20 m sp character could borrow a third of the total sp. But during that time the character being borrowed from goes into cryosleep and cannot be used during that time. Then when the character borrowing the SP dies it is returned to the original character. you could even put a price for the temporary transfer. and options for when the character does die to do the same character sp borrow again. Wow that sounds like a good reason to have a cloning button icon in the hanger!

I think that sounds much better then letting noob toons, buy there SP. and at the same time punishing veteran players by not letting them have the same return on investment. I can see and would like new players to be able to have a more enjoyable game experience and I think that's a great idea. But it doesn't mean that since we helped "noob" pilot we have to punish vet pilots.

Also there is nothing wrong with the Character Bazaar... except for it doesn't allow decent searches and options to say I'm looking for characters with specifically these skills. I better lookup system would fix the bazaar.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1077 - 2015-10-15 23:42:10 UTC
Horus V wrote:
People who trained skills for more than 10 years must now feel very stupid lol
Why? I'd think it stupid to play the game for 10 years without training due to the off chance that I might be able to monetize my training mistakes over that 10 year period at some point in the future.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1078 - 2015-10-15 23:44:09 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Guys, take a step back and calm down.

This isn't that big of a deal.

There's way too much hyperbole and ad-hominem attacks flying around here.

You're all acting incredibly irrational and are letting your emotional attachments to arbitrary numbers influence you into acting in a manner that portrays your true selves in a way you'd probably not want to be perceived.


It's OK. It doesn't hurt veterans except for their egos and sense of entitlement.

This isn't taking ANYTHING away from anyone, it's only giving more to those who don't have.

And if you only feel valuable because of your skill point advantage, then SHAME ON YOU. People who won't let others have simply because they want to say they have more are one of the major reasons our world is such a ****** place.

Stop being so God damned selfish.


Even the "damage" to older players is minimal. If one wants to make an 80 million SP character it will take 204,000,000 SP to get to 80 million SP. So, as a current estimate of that "cost" in terms of SP, how much would a 204 million SP character go for on the character bazaar?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Brusanan
Free State Project
#1079 - 2015-10-15 23:45:19 UTC
And I just resubbed on Monday. Time to ragequit again. What?
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#1080 - 2015-10-15 23:46:04 UTC
Can anyone who's complaining tell me exactly how this is any different to me just paying £15 a month or whatever to train a second character and then selling it? Apart from now I can do it without paying £15 a month as long as I don't mind my character learning nothing new?

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli