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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1041 - 2015-10-15 23:16:07 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
We will be having insta spies and avoxers - Hey Jack , this newbie you recruited yesterday is approaching me in a dictor.

Not bad, what are you in and are you ready to ~become content~

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
BirdStrike
Doomheim
#1042 - 2015-10-15 23:18:26 UTC
Heres a potential exploit,

Lets say i'm johnny isk farmer. I've got my countless bot army of mackinaw miners out avoiding code. I don't do mining, its dirty so someone can probably run the numbers on how long it takes to a max out a sole purposr mack ice bot skills. Once that bot has those skills it doesnt need any more skills. It self plexes. So i throw in a pair of plus 5 implants and repeatedly train the same, ideally biggest sp multiplier timesink. Level V something long, like 30 days. I max out my stats for outright sp/hr in just that one skill.

Bingo. In addition to generating ice revenue my zombie miner is now breeding SP at what 2- 2.2m a month? Multiplied by say 12 bot miners thats 24 million sp / month on top of my ice income for literally zero effort. Just repeatedly farm and cash in those 500k blocks, miner bot doesnt care, miner bot just nom noms ice.

so suddenly all the miner bot isk farmers have a new revenue stream, and that of course affect supply/demand valuation for character bazaar toons. Same with pure marketing alts, got a main, booster and supercap on three accounts with six cyno alts for your supercap? 12m sp a month right there off three accounts spare slots. Cyno bunnies wont use it, just max out their stats as above, as long as sp is more than 1bn / 2m then your plex is paid on that account.

Lots more gamification to be had. Pandoras box this one.
Draugo Rana
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
#1043 - 2015-10-15 23:18:38 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Ignorance of reality? The reality is I will never sell my character to anyone else. Therefore it is not a commodity and never will be which makes it as unique as a character can be. It is 'special' in so far as it is mine and only mine. Whatever anyone else does with their characters is entirely up to them.
Then this change is of no consequence to you and harms you in no way. Those that don't use it and chose not to commodify their characters or SP can train as normal.

I have no intent to use the feature, all the characters I would use it on have horrible return potential, but I see no reason to deny others.


This is not a single player game, it's a multiplayer sandbox game, every action and reaction directly or indirectly effects something else, that's the whole point and the beauty of it.

Otherwise you can claim that we shouldn't mind people exploiting bugs to gain ISK, botting or doing RMT, because "it doesn't directly harm them in any way".

Masuat'aa Matari is recruiting Minmatar freedom fighters
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1044 - 2015-10-15 23:19:51 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Elfaen Ethenwe wrote:
I can make it work dude, thats my alt and i have both the isk and the accounts. This patch would boost me for a very long time and i still think its a terrible idea.
Consuming an entire 200mill toon and funneling it into another 200mill toon results in a 219.5mill toon and a 5m toon.


This just wont work. At all. Once you cross that 80 million threshold you'd only get 50,000 SP from a 500,000 SP packet.

Seriously, there is an increase costs.

It will work fine, assuming the desire to spend all it takes to to convert 195m SP @ 500k per transfer (390 transfers [x whatever the AUR price ends up being for the extractor]) and you're willing to accept a 10% ROI on the SP itself.



Once you cross 80 million you get 50,000 for every 500,000 SP packet.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Arthur Hannigen
#1045 - 2015-10-15 23:20:09 UTC
So this is how it ends.
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#1046 - 2015-10-15 23:20:19 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
For people quitting in protest I remind them that Operation Magic School Bus does accept donations to help out the new players. Yes, this is a 'can I haz' post but it is one where the material will be put to good use, not just lining a wallet or hanger. Contract to me if you wish to donate.

m


Hmm, will keep this in mind.

After CCP Games fooked up with Incarna, as a customer I reduced my expenses towards the company by 75% (including eve store stuff), and "invested" that 75% into other space game mmo related companies. Who knows what the future holds ? Shocked

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
Sentenced 1989
#1047 - 2015-10-15 23:20:38 UTC
Removing learning implants (built in +5's), flat 3000sp/hour even with some 200-300 sp/hour bonus depending on logged in time, shortening skill time needed to fly ships or removing ship restrictions (like frigate level 4 is enough to fly even T2 frigates but at reduced bonuses) is something I would even say it's not so bad of an idea.

I do agree that something should be done, I have few low skilled players who can't join us on certain activities because they can't fly certain ships and that should be adresed, but not like this

But this is kinda "wait, you're saying what?" moment.

The Incursion Guild

Epic Arc Guide
Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
#1048 - 2015-10-15 23:21:06 UTC
NOTE: i have not read all 52 pages of responses....

Alternate suggestion:

1) purchase a character from the bazaar via standard means

2) upon acquireing a character... i have a one time option (also consider a 30 day limit from time of acquireing new character) to purchase a NERDS with Aurum ( Nerulogical Enhanced Realignment Distribution of Skills )

this NERDS will allow the following things to happen

1- Character Rename
2- Character Corp History alteration *
3- Character Skill realignment **

*Character corp history Alteration- it retains the dates of all NPC corps. it deletes and places "Unknown" with dates for all Player corps (thus retaining at least a partial history of the character, the ability to see a characters history and start date is of vital importance in the game and should be retained )

** Character Skill realignment - allows the new owner to delete unwanted skills and acquire unspent skill points at a 2 to 1 ratio (or perhaps 3 to 1, to be discussed ) and then spend those unwanted skill points were he or she see's fit

at no time ever should skill points be packaged and sold on the market for isk
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#1049 - 2015-10-15 23:22:32 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
You seem to be assuming no cost to the extractors. There will be market competition for those as well. Probably more competition than seen on the bazaar for characters. Sure you can train those alts and transfer the SP to yourself, using an extractor for every 500/400/200/50k SP the recipient character will get out of them. But it will also only be for SP over 5 million on each of those alts, so there will always be a base of 5 million SP sitting on those alts that can never be removed.

I dunno. Until we know the value in Aurum for the extractors, and then try and determine the price on the markets as supply and demand goes to work, we have no idea how cost effective this will be for anyone. Let alone what any of it might mean for actual gameplay in EVE. Probably very little.


Buy extractors for Aurum (Which is real money)
Buy 10 new Accounts for PLEX (which is real money)
Start training those and have your very own Super in a month.

The only place where the market comes into play is when you buy the skillbooks, and they are NPC seeded.

Yes, it will probably be more expensive than buying a character from the CB, but that doesn't help. Or would you say, that P2W is less terrible if it's just expensive enough?


You're correct, someone could buy their way into a super/titan and the char to use it. And that differs from the last 5 years how?

If people are so up in arms over this, then why aren't they shouting erryday about removing PLEX from the game? This is not the straw that breaks the Eve camel's back. The net effects of this are virtually no different than what has existed for years now. Probably just a transfer of effect from one bucket to another, but no noticeable increases in what it actually means in the game as far as player activity. Then again, we may not see those until well after the fact. Just like we did with PLEX and the explosion in alts. I'm not saying you're wrong, but this level of thread rage (in aggregate, not you) is way more associated with emotional disdain for anything the sniffs of P2W than what it probably really means to the game.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1050 - 2015-10-15 23:22:47 UTC
Gunrunner1775 wrote:
NOTE: i have not read all 52 pages of responses....

Alternate suggestion:

1) purchase a character from the bazaar via standard means

2) upon acquireing a character... i have a one time option (also consider a 30 day limit from time of acquireing new character) to purchase a NERDS with Aurum ( Nerulogical Enhanced Realignment Distribution of Skills )

this NERDS will allow the following things to happen

1- Character Rename
2- Character Corp History alteration *
3- Character Skill realignment **

*Character corp history Alteration- it retains the dates of all NPC corps. it deletes and places "Unknown" with dates for all Player corps (thus retaining at least a partial history of the character, the ability to see a characters history and start date is of vital importance in the game and should be retained )

** Character Skill realignment - allows the new owner to delete unwanted skills and acquire unspent skill points at a 2 to 1 ratio (or perhaps 3 to 1, to be discussed ) and then spend those unwanted skill points were he or she see's fit

at no time ever should skill points be packaged and sold on the market for isk


Renaming without some measure to track them will make AWOXing and corp thefts much more common...or at least much less costly.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1051 - 2015-10-15 23:23:04 UTC
Draugo Rana wrote:
This is not a single player game, it's a multiplayer sandbox game, every action and reaction directly or indirectly effects something else, that's the whole point and the beauty of it.

Otherwise you can claim that we shouldn't mind people exploiting bugs to gain ISK, botting or doing RMT, because "it doesn't directly harm them in any way".
Actually botting and RMT have economic effects which do reach me so they aren't comparable. The only effect which could come about from refusing to sell a character is that that character is unavailable to everyone else, but then that won't change and the effect is exactly maintained. Thus this doesn't change anything, not because it has no effect, but because that effect is unchanged.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1052 - 2015-10-15 23:23:43 UTC
BirdStrike wrote:
Heres a potential exploit,

Lets say i'm johnny isk farmer. I've got my countless bot army of mackinaw miners out avoiding code. I don't do mining, its dirty so someone can probably run the numbers on how long it takes to a max out a sole purposr mack ice bot skills. Once that bot has those skills it doesnt need any more skills. It self plexes. So i throw in a pair of plus 5 implants and repeatedly train the same, ideally biggest sp multiplier timesink. Level V something long, like 30 days. I max out my stats for outright sp/hr in just that one skill.

Bingo. In addition to generating ice revenue my zombie miner is now breeding SP at what 2- 2.2m a month? Multiplied by say 12 bot miners thats 24 million sp / month on top of my ice income for literally zero effort. Just repeatedly farm and cash in those 500k blocks, miner bot doesnt care, miner bot just nom noms ice.

so suddenly all the miner bot isk farmers have a new revenue stream, and that of course affect supply/demand valuation for character bazaar toons. Same with pure marketing alts, got a main, booster and supercap on three accounts with six cyno alts for your supercap? 12m sp a month right there off three accounts spare slots. Cyno bunnies wont use it, just max out their stats as above, as long as sp is more than 1bn / 2m then your plex is paid on that account.

Lots more gamification to be had. Pandoras box this one.

Weren't they already growing tengu or ishtar alts on those accounts and flooding the market already

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#1053 - 2015-10-15 23:24:12 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
I've quickly skimmed through the thread, is there ANY CSM member who think this (or something similar) is a good idea? If not, and I would hope so, then how in the FCK did this happen. Which moron thought this would be a good idea?


Gorski for one
http://crossingzebras.com/skillpoint-trading/
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1054 - 2015-10-15 23:25:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Teckos Pech wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Elfaen Ethenwe wrote:
I can make it work dude, thats my alt and i have both the isk and the accounts. This patch would boost me for a very long time and i still think its a terrible idea.
Consuming an entire 200mill toon and funneling it into another 200mill toon results in a 219.5mill toon and a 5m toon.


This just wont work. At all. Once you cross that 80 million threshold you'd only get 50,000 SP from a 500,000 SP packet.

Seriously, there is an increase costs.

It will work fine, assuming the desire to spend all it takes to to convert 195m SP @ 500k per transfer (390 transfers [x whatever the AUR price ends up being for the extractor]) and you're willing to accept a 10% ROI on the SP itself.



Once you cross 80 million you get 50,000 for every 500,000 SP packet.


Hence the statement "and you're willing to accept a 10% ROI on the SP itself."

The math I did accounted for that, 200m SP is 195m transferable @ 10% to another 200mSP char is a 219.5m SP char and 5m SP leftover nontransferable on the first char.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1055 - 2015-10-15 23:28:58 UTC
Querns wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Querns wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Querns wrote:


The new system is only different in its granularity.


Wrong. I can't buy instant bulk sp for this or any arbitrary character in the old system. I can in the new system.

World of difference.

Cash to ccp. Bulk, instant, and arbitrarily large SP for any character of my choice. If you claim this is the same as the character bazaar, you're lying through your teeth.

No, I'm just able to see things without a blood haze over my vision.

It's the same thing. Characters in eve are not special. They are commodities to be bought and sold.


Characters are special. Characters (players behind them) and corporations they run made this game what it is. They have made the game special.

Entity, Chribba, Grendell, Lord Zap, Tank CEO, SirMolle, Mittens, voogru, Istvaan Shogaatsu, Arachvoid, Shamiz Orzoz etc etc. I could name hundreds of characters heavily involved in making EVE what it is. Are they just commodities?

I find your approach quite shallow. That is why I can understand why you pushing so hard for something what will probably personally gain you, without caring about the whole picture. As mentioned numerous times - if this meant to help the new players it will fail. Unless they are willing to drop significant cash in it, which rare ones will probably do. And that makes it unfair to heavy majority of other new players and also to older players.

Only thing CCP can get in begger numbers from this is older players redoing or getting new alts. And probably sh*tloads of unhappy customers on the other side. Set sail for fail.


As mentioned earlier, one of the essences of the EVE was being tough and hard. It kinda represents RL in space. All sorts of people, economy, politics, wars, decisions, actions and reactions, choices and consequences.. If you start deleting those what will the game turn into?

So people should stop whining about wrong choices in past but live with the consequences. Or CCP should start fixing everyone`s stupidity or change of interest? Stop complaining about not having same amount sp as vets, you could have started playing earlier. Or whatever. Life is not fair. Same with EVE ;) It was never before so easy to make isk. Go buy ships, chars or whatever you want. Do not screw the game even more to make it easier for lazy ones. Man the f*ck up and play.

If CCP wants to find way to attract and keep new players then they should focus on that instead of proposing such "innovations" which will have more negative effect than benefit for players and therefore for themselves as well. As the majority new players will not benefit from this.




Those are people, not characters. Any one of those could currently or have in the past sold their character and continue to be the "big name" that they are.


Those characters represent people. Eve wondered why none of them was sold? Because they are not commodities. People bond with their characters, with time and efforts which they had put in them and what those characters present.

But that even was not the main point of my post, that was just a simple example of chars not being commodities. The point is that this will have no real benefit for new players and plenty of side effects and. And that it is potentially great threat to EVE.

And if that`s all you had to say on my post then I congratulate you for 50 pages of trolling. Since you obviously have no intention to work/discuss on actual improvement of the game I suppose you are just trolling or you are working in the opposite direction of my intentions (improving the game), for any reason there might be.

Since most of other comments who are supporting this idea are alts, I am glad that community has strong vote for NO. Though I hope even more people states that this idea is ********, so CCP does a "reality check" and see in how wrong direction they are going and that they have to change their mindset and vision to actually improve the game for the sake of the game and players.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1056 - 2015-10-15 23:29:09 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Hence the statement "and you're willing to accept a 10% ROI on the SP itself."

The math I did accounted for that, 200m SP is 195m transferable @ 10% to another 200mSP char is a 219.5m SP char and 5m SP leftover nontransferable on the first char.

How much AUR will all the packets it takes to transfer that cost?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#1057 - 2015-10-15 23:29:15 UTC
Guys, take a step back and calm down.

This isn't that big of a deal.

There's way too much hyperbole and ad-hominem attacks flying around here.

You're all acting incredibly irrational and are letting your emotional attachments to arbitrary numbers influence you into acting in a manner that portrays your true selves in a way you'd probably not want to be perceived.


It's OK. It doesn't hurt veterans except for their egos and sense of entitlement.

This isn't taking ANYTHING away from anyone, it's only giving more to those who don't have.

And if you only feel valuable because of your skill point advantage, then SHAME ON YOU. People who won't let others have simply because they want to say they have more are one of the major reasons our world is such a ****** place.

Stop being so God damned selfish.
Chrome Veinss
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1058 - 2015-10-15 23:30:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Chrome Veinss
BirdStrike wrote:
Heres a potential exploit,

Lets say i'm johnny isk farmer. I've got my countless bot army of mackinaw miners out avoiding code. I don't do mining, its dirty so someone can probably run the numbers on how long it takes to a max out a sole purposr mack ice bot skills. Once that bot has those skills it doesnt need any more skills. It self plexes. So i throw in a pair of plus 5 implants and repeatedly train the same, ideally biggest sp multiplier timesink. Level V something long, like 30 days. I max out my stats for outright sp/hr in just that one skill.

Bingo. In addition to generating ice revenue my zombie miner is now breeding SP at what 2- 2.2m a month? Multiplied by say 12 bot miners thats 24 million sp / month on top of my ice income for literally zero effort. Just repeatedly farm and cash in those 500k blocks, miner bot doesnt care, miner bot just nom noms ice.

so suddenly all the miner bot isk farmers have a new revenue stream, and that of course affect supply/demand valuation for character bazaar toons. Same with pure marketing alts, got a main, booster and supercap on three accounts with six cyno alts for your supercap? 12m sp a month right there off three accounts spare slots. Cyno bunnies wont use it, just max out their stats as above, as long as sp is more than 1bn / 2m then your plex is paid on that account.

Lots more gamification to be had. Pandoras box this one.


I see no problem with this? Ideally I'd like the game to be engaging to the point where everything, including mining, is impossible to multibox. Nobody (as far as I know anyway) multiboxes fleets of kiting frigates because the gameplay is demanding enough that a human's attention has to be focused on one client. But this is a game where a lot of things are better done semi afk by a single rich person with 3 monitors and 10 alts. These people are currently a net detriment to the game. Basically everything alts do that could involve human interaction instead is a detriment to the game and against the core of Eve. If they can farm sp and sell it, at least they will bring some value to the rest of players by providing a useful commodity.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1059 - 2015-10-15 23:30:43 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Though I hope even more people states that this idea is ********, so CCP does a "reality check" and see in how wrong direction they are going and that they have to change their mindset and vision to actually improve the game for the sake of the game and players.

I hope exactly the opposite. What part of that, is up to you.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1060 - 2015-10-15 23:30:53 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:


Hence the statement "and you're willing to accept a 10% ROI on the SP itself."

The math I did accounted for that, 200m SP is 195m transferable @ 10% to another 200mSP char is a 219.5m SP char and 5m SP leftover nontransferable on the first char.


So you cannot drain a 200 million SP character and create a 200 million SP character with the drained SP. Based on my rather low price estimates...this would likely cost 145 billion ISK to get a 200 million SP character.

To get that last 120 million SP to get to a total of 200 million SP, you'd need SP packets with 1.2 billion SP. You'd literally need to suck dry 10 characters with 120 million SP. Good luck with that and doing it for just 145 billion.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online