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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1001 - 2015-10-15 22:50:09 UTC
Shalmon Aliatus wrote:
Ahahahahahahahahaahahaaaa

Ha...

Ha...

Ha...

No.

This will lead to:

a) Pay to win. Period.

b) Old and rich characters building farm chars (full neural remap to one attribute, optimized implants and skilling just the skills that need them to a) push their chars and b) sell skillpoints

c) new players can't afford the skill packets until they buy plex, because skill packets will be expensive (1 month of skilltime = 1 plex + the aurum for creating the package)

d) big coalitions can push their members, so they not only have a advantage in numbers, but also in skillpoints (join goon and become a carrier pilot in one day Lol)


Right like buying and selling PLEX for ISK was not pay to win.

Like buying a character with said is is not pay to win.

You are a bit late to the game on the pay to win thing.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#1002 - 2015-10-15 22:50:13 UTC
Winter of waaaaaaaaaaaggggggeeeeeew incoming !
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1003 - 2015-10-15 22:50:41 UTC
BirdStrike wrote:
Next they'll decide it wasn't working as intended so they'll work 'just like plex'. 16.99 for a month of SP...

And then they'll decide supercaps and titans are a bit like the character bazaar, all this messing about with third parties and auctions on obscure parts of the forum johnnywarcraft never visits. And that's a problem because now he's used this new system and specced up his nyx/erebus pilot he doesn't know where to buy them from, and well, saving the bother of buying 80 plex and selling them you'll be abe to get one direct from aurum store. Nice and convenient, insured of course. We can't have johnnys mommy ringing up mastercard and requesting a chargeback because pandemic legion wtfbbq'd his 1000 usd christmas present and he didn't know titans could die amd he only wanted to go mining in it and hes being bullied by masty men and wants his titan back...he dudn't even get to shoot them because nobody told him that his 100 usd thons modified mining kaser couldn't do that.

And well, we can't have bad pr, so lets rent johnny a nice sov system for 100 usd a month complete with moon poo and asteroids where he can be left to mine in his titan, guarded of course by the 29.99 a month concorde upgrade that can wtfbbq the entire of goonfleet should they decide to stop by,

Tinfoil hat maybe, but look what a certain company did to battlefield and tell me we aren't on the road to farmeville 4.99 chicken packs.


Gosh, this slope sure looks slippery.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Anise Tig'res
Doomheim
#1004 - 2015-10-15 22:51:26 UTC
darkchild's corpse wrote:
after reading the devblog... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRKz82v5JQY

just kidding... but to be honest: i really dislike the idea. please do not implement that ccp.
yes, the character bazaar is already some kind of a pay to win thing (wich is the reason why i don't like it).
but this stuff makes it even worse.
neuntausend explained it clear enough to understand: the fact that you can use several characters to skill for one specific character makes it not really comparable to the character bazaar as we have it now. you can skill the skills YOU want and don't have to wait for a good offer. and in some cases this would also be probably even quicker than using the character bazaar.

and btw: "the character bazaar is p2w anyways, i like this new idea" is something only someone who is actually paying to win would say. but p2w concepts are not healthy for a game in general.

as some people already said: it would be ok if there would be character services like renaming / changing appearance that also cost plex. it would fix the "problems" of the character bazaar and there would probably be more money for ccp.

as an animal rights activist, i have to say: ccp, please don't force your cow into giving more milk like this. it doesn't like it and will die sooner or later. instead, listen to your cow. it's telling stories.


Your solution is literally exactly the same but with 'IT'S JUST LIKE BEFORE BUT A TINY BIT DIFFERENT! :D' plastered over the front of it.

Get over your emotional reaction to this. Just because it wasn't around when you started doesn't make it P2W.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1005 - 2015-10-15 22:51:38 UTC
I'm not convinced it will actually do anything as there is that fundamental requirement of spare SP to start the process.

I get the feeling this is going to find a blocker in that the main source of spare SP (veteran players) are either:
A) Going to be very e-peen about their SP totals, and unwilling to give it up.
B) Continually training alts for tasks instead of just junk training on their main, so they're not going to actually be able to skim off unused SP.

That being said, my only real complaint about the system itself is that it's founded on the assumption that SP is a necessary evil for the game.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1006 - 2015-10-15 22:51:39 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Querns wrote:

You have to bootstrap the bastards with 5m SP in order to start harvesting them. You've grossly underestimated the startup cost.


So, pay to win is okay if it's *grossly* expensive then?

The new accounts will come with a month of trial time and a plex through the Power of Two system. That's 2 Months for free, which is about 4M SP per character. So - no, I don't think I have grossly overestimated the startup cost not that it matters anyway.

You know what else was expensive? Buying characters on the Character Bazaar. Mostly rich folks did it.

Strange, then, that no one complains about this.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1007 - 2015-10-15 22:52:04 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Querns wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Querns wrote:


The new system is only different in its granularity.


Wrong. I can't buy instant bulk sp for this or any arbitrary character in the old system. I can in the new system.

World of difference.

Cash to ccp. Bulk, instant, and arbitrarily large SP for any character of my choice. If you claim this is the same as the character bazaar, you're lying through your teeth.

No, I'm just able to see things without a blood haze over my vision.

It's the same thing. Characters in eve are not special. They are commodities to be bought and sold.


Mine isn't.

Nor is mine, I started in summer of 2011 I, just like many others, trained into mining and industry. They are part of what defines my character as do the skill road maps of all characters.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Scott Dracov
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1008 - 2015-10-15 22:52:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Scott Dracov
Nuke Chicken wrote:
Has anyone stopped to calculate how much Plex will skyrocket in price to accommodate this? and how many accounts will go offline because of this direct change?



I believe SKINS and multi character training were meant to do this but failed and the price of plex only doubled but still made free to play possible for most vets.

This is the next logical step in making free to play access via plex with in game isk more difficult.

The result is a smaller player base but more paying customers in theory but herd mentality dictates that smaller numbers means more cancelled subscriptions that were actually paying customers in addition to those plexing with isk.

But if you remove the last quantity not for sale on a single character (training time)...

Then you have lost any anchor and are adrift in the world of micro transactions and pay 2 win schemes which new players like myself have no interest in when we signed up for a subscription to a game on a monthly+ basis.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1009 - 2015-10-15 22:52:28 UTC
Elfaen Ethenwe wrote:
I can make it work dude, thats my alt and i have both the isk and the accounts. This patch would boost me for a very long time and i still think its a terrible idea.
Consuming an entire 200mill toon and funneling it into another 200mill toon results in a 219.5mill toon and a 5m toon.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#1010 - 2015-10-15 22:53:49 UTC
So which DEV is going to leak the new "No fear" internal memo this time?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1011 - 2015-10-15 22:54:48 UTC
Aerasia wrote:
I'm not convinced it will actually do anything as there is that fundamental requirement of spare SP to start the process.

I get the feeling this is going to find a blocker in that the main source of spare SP (veteran players) are either:
A) Going to be very e-peen about their SP totals, and unwilling to give it up.
B) Continually training alts for tasks instead of just junk training on their main, so they're not going to actually be able to skim off unused SP.

That being said, my only real complaint about the system itself is that it's founded on the assumption that SP is a necessary evil for the game.
The character training currently intentionally fueling the character bazaar will likely end up being in part transitioned to this mechanic. I won't speculate on how well used it will be, but I don't see it going unused.
Adaris
#1012 - 2015-10-15 22:54:48 UTC
CCP I wholeheartedly disagree with this proposed feature. It actually concerns me greatly as a paying customer.

I'd rather see you monetise some of the services people have actually asked for as an aid to character trading:


  • Name change (keeping originals in an alias tab)
  • Convert a fixed number of skillpoints into unallocated skillpoints per fixed period. A few million sp per year etc.


Both for plex/aurum.

 
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1013 - 2015-10-15 22:55:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Querns wrote:

You know what else was expensive? Buying characters on the Character Bazaar. Mostly rich folks did it.

Strange, then, that no one complains about this.




Oh, As I said earlier, I don't like the CB either. But the CB being bad, doesn't mean they should make it even worse.

"Oh, caught a cold? Then you surely don't mind a bit of cancer either"

Yes, I do mind.
Si Karde
Arcane Odyssey
Electus Matari
#1014 - 2015-10-15 22:57:53 UTC
Well my 1st thought was is it April already? Since i see I'm not alone in my reaction I'll just say stupid idea....absolutely stupid idea...
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1015 - 2015-10-15 22:58:47 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Elfaen Ethenwe wrote:
I can make it work dude, thats my alt and i have both the isk and the accounts. This patch would boost me for a very long time and i still think its a terrible idea.
Consuming an entire 200mill toon and funneling it into another 200mill toon results in a 219.5mill toon and a 5m toon.


This just wont work. At all. Once you cross that 80 million threshold you'd only get 50,000 SP from a 500,000 SP packet.

Seriously, there is an increase costs.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1016 - 2015-10-15 22:59:07 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Querns wrote:

You know what else was expensive? Buying characters on the Character Bazaar. Mostly rich folks did it.

Strange, then, that no one complains about this.




Oh, As I said earlier, I don't like the CB either. But the CB being bad, doesn't mean they should make it even worse.

"Oh, caught a cold? Then you surely don't mind a bit of cancer either"

Yes, I do mind.

The character bazaar is fine, and provides basically the only opportunity for new players to catch up to old players.

It was critical for my gameplay.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1017 - 2015-10-15 23:00:28 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Querns wrote:

You know what else was expensive? Buying characters on the Character Bazaar. Mostly rich folks did it.

Strange, then, that no one complains about this.




Oh, As I said earlier, I don't like the CB either. But the CB being bad, doesn't mean they should make it even worse.

"Oh, caught a cold? Then you surely don't mind a bit of cancer either"

Yes, I do mind.


Prohibition leads to black markets. Like people selling characters on e-bay. The character bazaar undermines that market considerably.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
darkchild's corpse
Rens Nursing Home
#1018 - 2015-10-15 23:01:07 UTC
Anise Tig'res wrote:
darkchild's corpse wrote:
after reading the devblog... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRKz82v5JQY

just kidding... but to be honest: i really dislike the idea. please do not implement that ccp.
yes, the character bazaar is already some kind of a pay to win thing (wich is the reason why i don't like it).
but this stuff makes it even worse.
neuntausend explained it clear enough to understand: the fact that you can use several characters to skill for one specific character makes it not really comparable to the character bazaar as we have it now. you can skill the skills YOU want and don't have to wait for a good offer. and in some cases this would also be probably even quicker than using the character bazaar.

and btw: "the character bazaar is p2w anyways, i like this new idea" is something only someone who is actually paying to win would say. but p2w concepts are not healthy for a game in general.

as some people already said: it would be ok if there would be character services like renaming / changing appearance that also cost plex. it would fix the "problems" of the character bazaar and there would probably be more money for ccp.

as an animal rights activist, i have to say: ccp, please don't force your cow into giving more milk like this. it doesn't like it and will die sooner or later. instead, listen to your cow. it's telling stories.


Your solution is literally exactly the same but with 'IT'S JUST LIKE BEFORE BUT A TINY BIT DIFFERENT! :D' plastered over the front of it.

Get over your emotional reaction to this. Just because it wasn't around when you started doesn't make it P2W.


1. it's not "my" solution. as i already said, other ppl already said this before.
2. it's not just "a little difference". this new idea would offer completely new p2w possibilities wich was also explained enough in this thread.
3. i'm not emotional, i'm dead. i don't have emotions at all. i'm just saying what i think about all this.

Kinda suits the SP trading discussion (lyrics in description)
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#1019 - 2015-10-15 23:01:16 UTC
How does my being able to buy skill points for myself negatively impact you?
Marsha Mallow
#1020 - 2015-10-15 23:01:29 UTC
Mag's wrote:
I'm still reeling from this. Shocked and disappointed, doesn't quite fit the bill right now.

You haven't killed anything on that alt since 2011.
I like you, because you seem a nice person. But so are the rest. So don't take the rest personally.

I noted with interest Manny's response to the Aegissov whambulance criers. I won't quote, but it boiled down to: 'you must have SKIN in the game to participate in sov warfare'

ORLY

Where's your SKIN?

How many of you even play anymore?

Don't do the Phoebe-killed-us routine, you were rotten carcasses of fail well before that.

Explain why your neckbeard vanity should be preserved at the expense of everyone else. Make it good.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day