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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#981 - 2015-10-15 22:41:36 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
You seem to be assuming no cost to the extractors. There will be market competition for those as well. Probably more competition than seen on the bazaar for characters. Sure you can train those alts and transfer the SP to yourself, using an extractor for every 500/400/200/50k SP the recipient character will get out of them. But it will also only be for SP over 5 million on each of those alts, so there will always be a base of 5 million SP sitting on those alts that can never be removed.

I dunno. Until we know the value in Aurum for the extractors, and then try and determine the price on the markets as supply and demand goes to work, we have no idea how cost effective this will be for anyone. Let alone what any of it might mean for actual gameplay in EVE. Probably very little.


Buy extractors for Aurum (Which is real money)
Buy 10 new Accounts for PLEX (which is real money)
Start training those and have your very own Super in a month.

The only place where the market comes into play is when you buy the skillbooks, and they are NPC seeded.

Yes, it will probably be more expensive than buying a character from the CB, but that doesn't help. Or would you say, that P2W is less terrible if it's just expensive enough?

You have to bootstrap the bastards with 5m SP in order to start harvesting them. You've grossly underestimated the startup cost.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#982 - 2015-10-15 22:42:19 UTC
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:
Boo... I was excited for this system because it would let me get a new lease in life on my character. Take away skills I had in Mining and put them in something more worthwhile like Caldari Battleships or Sentry Drones. Maybe swap skill points I have from this character to my alts.

But with everyone complaining, I don't see CCP putting this feature in the game now... And it makes me kinda sad.


I agree. It has been poorly sold and done so at a delicate time in the survival of Eve Online. The way the masses are perceiving the concept will ensure it is a non starter.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#983 - 2015-10-15 22:42:28 UTC
I've quickly skimmed through the thread, is there ANY CSM member who think this (or something similar) is a good idea? If not, and I would hope so, then how in the FCK did this happen. Which moron thought this would be a good idea?
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#984 - 2015-10-15 22:43:07 UTC
Querns wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Querns wrote:


The new system is only different in its granularity.


Wrong. I can't buy instant bulk sp for this or any arbitrary character in the old system. I can in the new system.

World of difference.

Cash to ccp. Bulk, instant, and arbitrarily large SP for any character of my choice. If you claim this is the same as the character bazaar, you're lying through your teeth.

No, I'm just able to see things without a blood haze over my vision.

It's the same thing. Characters in eve are not special. They are commodities to be bought and sold.

If you wanted 500 commandship pilots for a fleet, you were out of luck. Market never has that many in stock.

But now? Buy all the sp you want and distribute it however you see fit, to whomever you see fit, instantly. It saddens me that some people can't see this system for what it is, or are too blinded by their own ambitions to care.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#985 - 2015-10-15 22:44:07 UTC
Nuke Chicken wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Reiisha wrote:
Stupidly bad idea. This is going to get abused like no tomorrow.

Expect maxed 600m sp characters within days of the release of this feature.


No.

First you'd need to get hundreds of millions of SP from other players.

Those characters would have to buy thousands of the extractors and packets. I'm gonna guess at say 8500...and if they cost 100 Aurum (a low price, IMO) we are talking well over 900 billion ISK.

Maybe some body could do this...but it would likely take some time. Certainly not days.


You wouldnt need this to kill the game but oh wait, we can all dock supers soon so theres 2 accounts per top sp players they no longer need. 'Scuse me whilst i absorb the sp from my titan and super toons I no longer need into each other, now i have 2x 200mil sp toons. Also CCP now has 2 LESS subscriptions.



No. You forgot to factor in the decreasing returns. Or you are bad at math.Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Edwin Wyatt
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#986 - 2015-10-15 22:44:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Edwin Wyatt
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
The main reason I think this is a bad idea is perception.

1. It seems to be one step closer to direct pay2win.


How is this not in the game already?
I can buy plexes with cash, purchase a maxed out character from a burnt out bitter vet and
buy expensive ships with plexes.

Sounds like p2w to me!
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#987 - 2015-10-15 22:44:44 UTC
Querns wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Querns wrote:


The new system is only different in its granularity.


Wrong. I can't buy instant bulk sp for this or any arbitrary character in the old system. I can in the new system.

World of difference.

Cash to ccp. Bulk, instant, and arbitrarily large SP for any character of my choice. If you claim this is the same as the character bazaar, you're lying through your teeth.

No, I'm just able to see things without a blood haze over my vision.

It's the same thing. Characters in eve are not special. They are commodities to be bought and sold.


Mine isn't.
Hashtag Rare Pepe
Doomheim
#988 - 2015-10-15 22:45:23 UTC
2 types of people in this thread:

1/"Boohoo Boohoo! I won't be special anymurr even if I packed millions of sp while doing L4 in high sec."
2/"Nice I will be able to do pvp and be useful without having to wait more than 1 year before hopping into a Tengu."

Choose your side.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#989 - 2015-10-15 22:45:56 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Buy extractors for Aurum (Which is real money)
Buy 10 new Accounts for PLEX (which is real money)
Start training those and have your very own Super in a month.

The only place where the market comes into play is when you buy the skillbooks, and they are NPC seeded.

Yes, it will probably be more expensive than buying a character from the CB, but that doesn't help. Or would you say, that P2W is less terrible if it's just expensive enough?
is a 20mill SP super character actually worthwhile(before accounting for loss due to the consuming character having diminishing returns)?
Elfaen Ethenwe
Effluvium.
#990 - 2015-10-15 22:46:09 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Nuke Chicken wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Reiisha wrote:
Stupidly bad idea. This is going to get abused like no tomorrow.

Expect maxed 600m sp characters within days of the release of this feature.


No.

First you'd need to get hundreds of millions of SP from other players.

Those characters would have to buy thousands of the extractors and packets. I'm gonna guess at say 8500...and if they cost 100 Aurum (a low price, IMO) we are talking well over 900 billion ISK.

Maybe some body could do this...but it would likely take some time. Certainly not days.


You wouldnt need this to kill the game but oh wait, we can all dock supers soon so theres 2 accounts per top sp players they no longer need. 'Scuse me whilst i absorb the sp from my titan and super toons I no longer need into each other, now i have 2x 200mil sp toons. Also CCP now has 2 LESS subscriptions.



No. You forgot to factor in the decreasing returns. Or you are bad at math.Roll





I can make it work dude, thats my alt and i have both the isk and the accounts. This patch would boost me for a very long time and i still think its a terrible idea.
BirdStrike
Doomheim
#991 - 2015-10-15 22:46:51 UTC  |  Edited by: BirdStrike
Next they'll decide it wasn't working as intended so they'll work 'just like plex'. 16.99 for a month of SP...

And then they'll decide supercaps and titans are a bit like the character bazaar, all this messing about with third parties and auctions on obscure parts of the forum johnnywarcraft never visits. And that's a problem because now he's used this new system and specced up his nyx/erebus pilot he doesn't know where to buy them from, and well, saving the bother of buying 80 plex and selling them you'll be abe to get one direct from aurum store. Nice and convenient, insured of course. We can't have johnnys mommy ringing up mastercard and requesting a chargeback because pandemic legion wtfbbq'd his 1000 usd christmas present and he didn't know titans could die amd he only wanted to go mining in it and hes being bullied by masty men and wants his titan back...he dudn't even get to shoot them because nobody told him that his 100 usd thons modified mining kaser couldn't do that.

And well, we can't have bad pr, so lets rent johnny a nice sov system for 100 usd a month complete with moon poo and asteroids where he can be left to mine in his titan, guarded of course by the 29.99 a month concorde upgrade that can wtfbbq the entire of goonfleet should they decide to stop by,

Tinfoil hat maybe, but look what a certain company did to battlefield and tell me we aren't on the road to farmeville 4.99 chicken packs.

Edit to add: if ccp were honest about this and just came out and said, look how much that pincus fella makes from selling virtual chickens, we put up with your endless whining fir ten years and we're broke, so suck it up and thats 20 bucks for your svipul. I'd be like fair enough ccp. But dressing up an obvious moneterisation of SP as being a way to 'solve' character bazaar (like nubbins are going to spend 1000 usd on plex to buy a toon. Lol) seems suspect. Because i've literally never heard a noob say in rookie chat 'if only there was some way i could buy a 54m pvp god character who has all falcon skills maxed because i'm just itching to leap right in there!.

And its not pay to win - its pay (more) to play, nobody wins EVE, theres nothing to win beyond whatever sense of achievement you had and social experience you take away.
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#992 - 2015-10-15 22:47:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Querns wrote:

You have to bootstrap the bastards with 5m SP in order to start harvesting them. You've grossly underestimated the startup cost.


So, pay to win is okay if it's *grossly* expensive then?

The new accounts will come with a month of trial time and a plex through the Power of Two system. That's 2 Months for free, which is about 4M SP per character. So - no, I don't think I have grossly overestimated the startup cost not that it matters anyway.
Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#993 - 2015-10-15 22:47:41 UTC
Edwin Wyatt wrote:
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
The main reason I think this is a bad idea is perception.

1. It seems to be one step closer to direct pay2win.


How is this not in the game already?
I can buy plexes with cash, purchase a maxed out character from a burnt out bitter vet and
buy expensive ships with plexes.

Sounds like p2w to me!


Please don't misread and then quote me out of context.
darkchild's corpse
Rens Nursing Home
#994 - 2015-10-15 22:47:41 UTC
after reading the devblog... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRKz82v5JQY

just kidding... but to be honest: i really dislike the idea. please do not implement that ccp.
yes, the character bazaar is already some kind of a pay to win thing (wich is the reason why i don't like it).
but this stuff makes it even worse.
neuntausend explained it clear enough to understand: the fact that you can use several characters to skill for one specific character makes it not really comparable to the character bazaar as we have it now. you can skill the skills YOU want and don't have to wait for a good offer. and in some cases this would also be probably even quicker than using the character bazaar.

and btw: "the character bazaar is p2w anyways, i like this new idea" is something only someone who is actually paying to win would say. but p2w concepts are not healthy for a game in general.

as some people already said: it would be ok if there would be character services like renaming / changing appearance that also cost plex. it would fix the "problems" of the character bazaar and there would probably be more money for ccp.

as an animal rights activist, i have to say: ccp, please don't force your cow into giving more milk like this. it doesn't like it and will die sooner or later. instead, listen to your cow. it's telling stories.

Kinda suits the SP trading discussion (lyrics in description)
Shalmon Aliatus
Bluestar Enterprises
The Craftsmen
#995 - 2015-10-15 22:48:01 UTC
Ahahahahahahahahaahahaaaa

Ha...

Ha...

Ha...

No.

This will lead to:

a) Pay to win. Period.

b) Old and rich characters building farm chars (full neural remap to one attribute, optimized implants and skilling just the skills that need them to a) push their chars and b) sell skillpoints

c) new players can't afford the skill packets until they buy plex, because skill packets will be expensive (1 month of skilltime = 1 plex + the aurum for creating the package)

d) big coalitions can push their members, so they not only have a advantage in numbers, but also in skillpoints (join goon and become a carrier pilot in one day Lol)
Striker IV
He say you Brade Runner
#996 - 2015-10-15 22:48:33 UTC
ugh, we know from experience, that if something can be twisted into an exploit, or playerbase finds it and does it.
Im all for creative uses, but this sounds like a bad idea all around.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#997 - 2015-10-15 22:48:59 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Querns wrote:


The new system is only different in its granularity.


Wrong. I can't buy instant bulk sp for this or any arbitrary character in the old system. I can in the new system.

World of difference.

Cash to ccp. Bulk, instant, and arbitrarily large SP for any character of my choice. If you claim this is the same as the character bazaar, you're lying through your teeth.


No, I'm guessing that the limit will be around 50 million SP maybe 60 or 70, but that is about it. Because it will get quite expensive once you go over 80 million SP.

Further, it also depends on how much SP are on the market. Will everyone one with cap alts who can fly more than one racial cap ship suddenly drain all those SP and toss them on the market for ISK? What if that drops the price really low? People are going to sell at a loss? Really?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#998 - 2015-10-15 22:49:02 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Querns wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Querns wrote:


The new system is only different in its granularity.


Wrong. I can't buy instant bulk sp for this or any arbitrary character in the old system. I can in the new system.

World of difference.

Cash to ccp. Bulk, instant, and arbitrarily large SP for any character of my choice. If you claim this is the same as the character bazaar, you're lying through your teeth.

No, I'm just able to see things without a blood haze over my vision.

It's the same thing. Characters in eve are not special. They are commodities to be bought and sold.

If you wanted 500 commandship pilots for a fleet, you were out of luck. Market never has that many in stock.

But now? Buy all the sp you want and distribute it however you see fit, to whomever you see fit, instantly. It saddens me that some people can't see this system for what it is, or are too blinded by their own ambitions to care.

Considering that the market also does not have an infinite supply of skill boosters, I fail to see the concern.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#999 - 2015-10-15 22:49:50 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Querns wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Querns wrote:


The new system is only different in its granularity.


Wrong. I can't buy instant bulk sp for this or any arbitrary character in the old system. I can in the new system.

World of difference.

Cash to ccp. Bulk, instant, and arbitrarily large SP for any character of my choice. If you claim this is the same as the character bazaar, you're lying through your teeth.

No, I'm just able to see things without a blood haze over my vision.

It's the same thing. Characters in eve are not special. They are commodities to be bought and sold.


Mine isn't.

It's your choice to live in deliberate ignorance of reality. I fail to see how the reality shifting a bit affects this.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Draugo Rana
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
#1000 - 2015-10-15 22:50:04 UTC
Hashtag Rare Pepe wrote:
2 types of people in this thread:

1/"Boohoo Boohoo! I won't be special anymurr even if I packed millions of sp while doing L4 in high sec."
2/"Nice I will be able to do pvp and be useful without having to wait more than 1 year before hopping into a Tengu."

Choose your side.



3. People who write knee jerk mocking 2 liner comments without actually reading, let alone trying to understand the presented and often well written arguments...

Masuat'aa Matari is recruiting Minmatar freedom fighters