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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Konrad Kane
#921 - 2015-10-15 22:11:20 UTC
Has CCP considered what happens if Alliances decide to buy these to stock pile SP so they can future proof themselves from changes in the meta?

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#922 - 2015-10-15 22:11:50 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Querns wrote:
Arec Bardwin wrote:
]You realise that the pro vets with unlimited wallets would profit the most from this, don't you?

How? They have to spend ten times as much ISK for the same benefit as a new player would.

You think they care? they have trillions of ISK and nothing they can spend it on. Say bb to PLEXing your account because it will sky-rocket, say bb to SP for ISK because you will never have the ISK to buy them.

Why would I spend trillions of isk barely improving the same character? I can already fly all T1 subcaps and nearly every T2 subcap, and I only have 100m SP. I also have alts to fly all the capital ships I'm interested in flying.

If you're arguing that a rich person who also has the mental defect where he thinks that the total amount of SP he has matters can gorge himself on meaningless SP for ships he never flies and game the eveboard top SP leaderboard, then I say "more power to him." Means the profit of my bastard farm goes up. It literally has no consequence to anyone possessing even a modicum of rationality in their think pan.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#923 - 2015-10-15 22:12:21 UTC
Devin Wallace wrote:
Querns wrote:
Reiisha wrote:
Stupidly bad idea. This is going to get abused like no tomorrow.

Expect maxed 600m sp characters within days of the release of this feature.

At least make it so that 80 or 100m+ sp character don't gain any sp whatsoever via this feature.... I can understand the need to get up to 40-60m quickly, but above that.... I'll be honest, i like my vet status! :P

What, exactly, is the abuse of having all 5s skills?


More importantly, like I've mentioned twice now and is readily apparent in the actual devblog, paying to skill a character even as high as 80 million ISK would cost THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. THOUSANDS.


For the record, a player bought several palettes worth of beer to be freely dispensed to everyone at Fanfest 2014. Acting as though there are not players who don't have the liquid income to abuse/exploit a system freely is sort of foolish.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama

Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#924 - 2015-10-15 22:12:41 UTC
Querns wrote:
Make 5 alts. Train them at maximum SP on a skill plan that is in-demand. Sell them on the Character Bazaar. Use the proceeds to buy a character with the skills you want.

Exactly the same thing.


No, it's not. I want to create a Mothership alt. Training one would take what? a year - no idea.

Training 5 characters and transferring the SP would take 3 Months, and I don't even have to worry about market availability.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#925 - 2015-10-15 22:12:59 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
I remember Greyscale giving one of the reasons for not wanting to reimburse advanced industry when it was made to be useless was because he thought giving out unallocated SP diminishes the skill system. What has changed CCP?


They aren't as dumb as back when they didn't change anything old ever and only added new stuff.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#926 - 2015-10-15 22:13:14 UTC
Querns wrote:
Did you read the devblog? The only part of the transaction that involves Aurum is purchasing the extractor in the first place. Players have to spend SP, then sell the filled extractor on the open market. This is not even remotely the same thing as "money for SP."


I did not realise that the SP packages would sell for 0 ISK.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#927 - 2015-10-15 22:13:27 UTC
Devin Wallace wrote:
Querns wrote:
Reiisha wrote:
Stupidly bad idea. This is going to get abused like no tomorrow.

Expect maxed 600m sp characters within days of the release of this feature.

At least make it so that 80 or 100m+ sp character don't gain any sp whatsoever via this feature.... I can understand the need to get up to 40-60m quickly, but above that.... I'll be honest, i like my vet status! :P

What, exactly, is the abuse of having all 5s skills?


More importantly, like I've mentioned twice now and is readily apparent in the actual devblog, paying to skill a character even as high as 80 million ISK would cost THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. THOUSANDS.

"A fool and his money are soon parted." - Elvis Presley in The Matrix

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#928 - 2015-10-15 22:13:54 UTC
There is only 1 way that I'd be willing to support this: Using a Skill Extractor consumes a Neural Remap.

This would seriously curtail the abuses that would otherwise be rampant with the proposed system. Young characters could make mistakes or change their minds by using up those bonus remaps to get rid of skills they don't want while older characters would have to make meaningful decisions about whether they want to make a skill packet to sell/transfer to an alt or remap for faster training in the coming year of their planned training queue.

This would also help stem the flood of Skill Packets on the market since each character could only make 1 per year (not counting bonus remaps). I'm unsure of how I'd feel about an option to extract more than 500,000SP at a time, but if you're only allowed to do it once per year I think being able to extract more than 500,000SP to create multiple skill packets at once would need to be considered. Most people earn about 23-24mil SP/year and I think maybe being able to extract up to 25mil SP/year in exchange for your yearly remap would be acceptable, but it would need to be done all at once with all the accompanying AUR fees paid in one lump sum (ie: if you want to extract 25mil SP then you're going to lose your yearly remap and be forced to consume 50 Skill Extractors at once to generate the 50 Skill Packets you'd be creating). Or maybe instead of consuming your yearly remap each Skill Extractor used would instead increase your Remap timer by an amount of time, say 15 days. There by limiting a character to creating 2 Skill Packets per month, or 24 per year.

I don't know. It's a tough issue and it definitely needs more consideration and a lot of community involvement. This idea of Skill Extractors and Skill Packets being sold in game on the market isn't an entirely bad idea. But the system as described certainly isn't a positive change for most players because it stinks of a pay to win style of gameplay where anyone with enough money to throw at the game can instantly compete with veterans that have been playing for a decade or more. I agree that the Character Bazaar could definitely use some love, but I don't believe this is the best way to address it.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#929 - 2015-10-15 22:14:28 UTC
WTF? I'm lost for words at just how low you are now going. Selling and buying SP in packets? I hope you see sense and stop this madness.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#930 - 2015-10-15 22:15:03 UTC
Querns wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Querns wrote:
Arec Bardwin wrote:
]You realise that the pro vets with unlimited wallets would profit the most from this, don't you?

How? They have to spend ten times as much ISK for the same benefit as a new player would.

You think they care? they have trillions of ISK and nothing they can spend it on. Say bb to PLEXing your account because it will sky-rocket, say bb to SP for ISK because you will never have the ISK to buy them.

Why would I spend trillions of isk barely improving the same character? I can already fly all T1 subcaps and nearly every T2 subcap, and I only have 100m SP. I also have alts to fly all the capital ships I'm interested in flying.

If you're arguing that a rich person who also has the mental defect where he thinks that the total amount of SP he has matters can gorge himself on meaningless SP for ships he never flies and game the eveboard top SP leaderboard, then I say "more power to him." Means the profit of my bastard farm goes up. It literally has no consequence to anyone possessing even a modicum of rationality in their think pan.

Who cares about leader boards? He will buy it because there is nothing else he does not already have and he can perfect his character and win EVE.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#931 - 2015-10-15 22:15:12 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Querns wrote:
Make 5 alts. Train them at maximum SP on a skill plan that is in-demand. Sell them on the Character Bazaar. Use the proceeds to buy a character with the skills you want.

Exactly the same thing.


No, it's not. I want to create a Mothership alt. Training one would take what? a year - no idea.

Training 5 characters and transferring the SP would take 3 Months, and I don't even have to worry about market availability.

Training the five characters and then using their sale proceeds to buy a supercarrier alt would be the exact same amount of time, plus or minus a small random factor for availability.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Konrad Kane
#932 - 2015-10-15 22:15:29 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
[It's nothing like the Bazaar. You are buying SP for Aurum to allocate where you want.


Agreed.

Also the Bazaar isn't a perfect market - if I wanted to buy 50 archon pilots for my alliance members it would take me time and effort to do so.

With this system the alliance can buy any SP from the market and create perfect pilots within a very short period of time.

This dramatically reduces any lag in getting younger players to retrain in to the latest meta.
General Vachot
The Vendunari
End of Life
#933 - 2015-10-15 22:15:45 UTC  |  Edited by: General Vachot
Sorry but just have to add to this thread. I am not a big fish or a well known PVP player but I have been in this game since 2006. That's 9 years of solid devotion and love of EVE. And for all those flamers who will say get a life etc I have a job, kids, family I play sport etc etc but Eve is my main hobby. And it is one that has kept on giving.

During my 9 years I have been a hi sec carebear, started a corp with mates, became a bad WH pvp pilot, started an alliance, FC'd, created and captained several AT teams.

I am not a bittervet - I love this game still and even some of the more controversial changes have not made me lose faith. I have confidence that CCP will work it all out in the end.

Please do not go down this path. Its pushing things more to a "pay to win". The best part of EVE is its blood sweat and tears (so many tears) not pay to win (fyi plex for isk is not play to win it just puts you in a shiner ship for me to kill). Every skill point error I made is like a battle scar. Each toons history is just that - history. Part of taking on a new toon is dealing with its baggage.

I say this with a level head. CCP if you respect at all the long term players who have made you money and promoted your game to anyone that will listen to them over a vast amount of time - don't do this.

Instead spend time new ships, new modules, new ways to fly our ships - fyi more than just orbit and keep at controls would be a boon - like a proper speed control drag bar so I can set my max speed when kiting instead of clicking along the speed bar guessing where that good speed is. Just an example.

Or frigate level command ships that only apply links when on grid and to ships you have targeted - soooo much benefit for small fast moving gangs and a good way to trial fun on grid links that require actual flying.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#934 - 2015-10-15 22:15:50 UTC
Devin Wallace wrote:
Querns wrote:
Reiisha wrote:
Stupidly bad idea. This is going to get abused like no tomorrow.

Expect maxed 600m sp characters within days of the release of this feature.

At least make it so that 80 or 100m+ sp character don't gain any sp whatsoever via this feature.... I can understand the need to get up to 40-60m quickly, but above that.... I'll be honest, i like my vet status! :P

What, exactly, is the abuse of having all 5s skills?


More importantly, like I've mentioned twice now and is readily apparent in the actual devblog, paying to skill a character even as high as 80 million ISK would cost THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. THOUSANDS.



so would a titian and theres tons of that cancer around
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#935 - 2015-10-15 22:16:37 UTC
Fredou wrote:
No please no

I'm not going to read the previous 44 pages

why on earth would you want to do this? really


i have started playing eve nearly 10 ½ years ago

i have over 230m sp

you can gain about ~ 24m per year

why would you want to kill this?



You'll still have 230 million SP, and you can still gain millions every year via normal training.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#936 - 2015-10-15 22:16:58 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Querns wrote:
Did you read the devblog? The only part of the transaction that involves Aurum is purchasing the extractor in the first place. Players have to spend SP, then sell the filled extractor on the open market. This is not even remotely the same thing as "money for SP."


I did not realise that the SP packages would sell for 0 ISK.

Why does the ISK cost of the filled extractor matter?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#937 - 2015-10-15 22:17:12 UTC
Querns wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
Querns wrote:
Make 5 alts. Train them at maximum SP on a skill plan that is in-demand. Sell them on the Character Bazaar. Use the proceeds to buy a character with the skills you want.

Exactly the same thing.


No, it's not. I want to create a Mothership alt. Training one would take what? a year - no idea.

Training 5 characters and transferring the SP would take 3 Months, and I don't even have to worry about market availability.

Training the five characters and then using their sale proceeds to buy a supercarrier alt would be the exact same amount of time, plus or minus a small random factor for availability.




without the limit of 50mil sp where the usefulness of sp packs lowers
Arec Bardwin
#938 - 2015-10-15 22:17:44 UTC
Konrad Kane wrote:
Has CCP considered what happens if Alliances decide to buy these to stock pile SP so they can future proof themselves from changes in the meta?

no wonder Mittens and Elise thinks this is a great idea Big smile
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#939 - 2015-10-15 22:17:50 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Querns wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Querns wrote:
Arec Bardwin wrote:
]You realise that the pro vets with unlimited wallets would profit the most from this, don't you?

How? They have to spend ten times as much ISK for the same benefit as a new player would.

You think they care? they have trillions of ISK and nothing they can spend it on. Say bb to PLEXing your account because it will sky-rocket, say bb to SP for ISK because you will never have the ISK to buy them.

Why would I spend trillions of isk barely improving the same character? I can already fly all T1 subcaps and nearly every T2 subcap, and I only have 100m SP. I also have alts to fly all the capital ships I'm interested in flying.

If you're arguing that a rich person who also has the mental defect where he thinks that the total amount of SP he has matters can gorge himself on meaningless SP for ships he never flies and game the eveboard top SP leaderboard, then I say "more power to him." Means the profit of my bastard farm goes up. It literally has no consequence to anyone possessing even a modicum of rationality in their think pan.

Who cares about leader boards? He will buy it because there is nothing else he does not already have and he can perfect his character and win EVE.

Today, I learned that hitting rank 5 in all skills causes the end credits to roll for Eve: Online, noted spaceship-themed spreadsheet.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
#940 - 2015-10-15 22:18:34 UTC
Don't forget people on the forums are actually a small percentage of the whole player base, so whether we approve or disapprove this idea, we do not speak for all of them. We are expressing our little, humble opinion. I don't think CSM can speak for us too. Sure they are our voice in CCP, but they are not our mind. The fact that I voted for someone doesn't mean that he/she always expresses my opinion.

If CCP has doubts about this after reading the thread, I suggest a poll to all players, maybe shown in the launcher or something. If not, they could "polish" this idea based on feedback and then release it.