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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
BirdStrike
Doomheim
#821 - 2015-10-15 20:54:58 UTC
This is beyond terribad for everyone except lazy players with attention defecits who want instant results. You are also goung to kill your biggest EVE glue (and cashcow) and i'll explain why:

Firstly, the tiered system to 'protect' veteran accounts is somewhat disingenuous. By giving older characters a lower cash out rate all you are doing is stealth nerfing their skillbase by allowing everyone else a quick and easy legup since they can instantly close the gap and get all those pita level V skills that we literally sat and watched paint dry (30 bloody days and more) with one click. That is BRUTALLY a kick in the teeth for everyone who subbed through all your crappiest design decisions, nerf wrecking balls and kept paying every month. And this is just the start of the problems.

Firstly, antone who plays this game long enough gets sick of it and needs to take a break. Once you've vested a year or more into your char you don't want it to fall behind, so even though you don't play you keep paying sub money every month to keep your skills going.

Amd guess what? Its that magical evemon skill training complete on some 120 day snorefest into a new class that has you logging back in for the excitement of playing with new shiny. During that time we werent playing you were collecting subs for nothing more than a sql record update. Thats been your cashcow, and when you dropped the ball the only reason huge people didnt unsub on mass.

So now that goes away, fed up of EvE? Unsub. Maybe you never come back, but if you do then you can just put the cash you saved into buying the SP you missed out on. I've got a feeling many will leave, few will return.

Next.

One of the best things has been about eve that within an average of 1800-2500 you can pretty much level peg with every char your own age. No more... Someone can get their wallet out and buff their 1 month toon to 50m...100m - however much they can afford out of the gate.

Now heres the problem

Smart pvp players check a char bio dob to assess how skilled a player likely is before engaging, it allows you to figure if that guy sat in x ship is likely all v maxed t2, or struggling to hold the thing together. All of a sudden we'll have 6 month old pkayers with maxed skills vs 5 year players. Thats unfair, that really is play to win because regardless of skill this game is a stats battle and the best pilot in the world cant break a maxed tank unless they have the sp derived dps to do it.

Moar problems:
What creates loyal players is sp addiction. Thats why we all spend ours plotting our training to get max time/sp and dont drop sub time, all that out of the window. Unless i pay i will no longer be the smartest kid in school, i'll be millions of sp behind johnny wow and his mommys credit card.

And of course you are going to get his chunk of aurum lucre. Then in 3 months he'll be off to pkay something else. No more subs. Certainly if he goes from 1-100m sp via amex he's not going to have the sense of bond that spending 5-7 years skilling gives you.

The big sense of satisfaction of EVe is waiting. Knowing that in 4 days i'll have small railgun t2 and x amount more dps, etc. there is always a next goal to work towards. Other games dont have that. In Dayz epoch in less than one week farming aircraft i had a fleet of blackhawks and 20 safes full of guns and ammo. No more progression. No longer play.

The only reason i see you doung this is because you don't think EVE is going to be around long enough for the current new/middle players to get anywhere near the top of the sp, so this is a way to simply milk cash from people before the remaining pkayerbase evaporates and you turn the servers off and start making iphone games like every other game co.

Well, do this and ironically you will accellerate eves demise, for sure we'll all gorge on plex to breed huge bastard alt armys to donate their sp, the databanks will be purged of millions of chars as the trillionaires of eve consume every sp to max out, but ironically when all the current players consume all the dead sp what then?

When there is nothing more to work towards? We might all realise how little new content there is in game and call it a day.

And i hope you did your math: i suspect more sp will be consumed by the trillions of unspent isk than rl money, so if this is some beancounters way of monetising the chracter bazaar i think its going to fail.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#822 - 2015-10-15 20:55:37 UTC
Kanzero wrote:
Why is everyone sperging? This will NOT create sp out of nowhere. Players will have to extract their own sp in order to sell it to other players.

No new sp is created, it's just redistributed.

It's typical kneejerk posting. Seeing Aurum/PLEX mentioned in conjunction with SP causes brain shutdowns and foaming at the mouth.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#823 - 2015-10-15 20:55:44 UTC
CCP will already sell you ISK. You can already buy SP in the character bazaar.

So, while I think it's a dumb idea, I don't think it will have the impact a lot of you think it will. I'll not be running to the closet to get out my army surplus helmet to protect my head from the falling sky on this one, I think.

Mr Epeen Cool
Jack De'alek
Shattered Earth Industries
#824 - 2015-10-15 20:55:49 UTC
This idea has very gamebreaking implications. As it is right now, each individual character has a theoretical maximum sp. If I had been perfectly optimized and training skills at a rate of roughly 2500sp/hr, I would have significantly more sp than I do now. This of course would have been impossible, or near to it, given that this character's attributes were static based on my race and lineage choices.

This idea could, and will, for those with deep enough pockets, push characters beyond their theoretical maximum and effectively trivialize pilots who have been faithfully playing for years.

The only way I would support this idea is if characters could never exceed that theoretical sp number, because as someone who has stopped training for months at a time, it would benefit me immensely. If however, one could not inject skills or sp beyond theoretical maximum limits, then new players could never benefit from it. On the same token, characters my age who were more "dedicated" (loosely using the term because my commitment to my subscription has always been linked to my rl finances rather than my desire to pay/play) than i see less benefit as well.

Not gonna lie, I've often fantasized about being able to buy my "missing" skill points in one fell swoop, but just because I would stand to gain tremendously from this idea doesn't mean it isn't a terrible idea.

No, CCP. Don't do it. Eve has always been a long term game. Do not radically alter the purest, most brilliant game to date for the pursuit of a few more subs. Instant gratification types never last here in New Eden, and completely breaking the game isn't going to keep them around any longer. You're just going to betray your loyal followers. The blowback from this will be disastrous.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#825 - 2015-10-15 20:58:03 UTC
Kanzero wrote:
Why is everyone sperging? This will NOT create sp out of nowhere. Players will have to extract their own sp in order to sell it to other players.

No new sp is created, it's just redistributed.


In fact, it is just the opposite.

There are a few major points this solves for CCP.

One, they gain the ability to let new players catch up to older players in a less impersonal manner. Having to buy a character with a name you didn't decide to play EVE with after you get rich is silly. Now people attached to their name, corp history, or reg date can be a top SP player if they want.

Two, they gain a way to prove out the aurum for a high demand item. This is probably a stepping stone to moving gametime to aurum and plex dying off.

Three, this is an excellent way to not only draw older players back. But to allow those older players to cash in alts and juice their mains or just get some easy ISK. Many a character will likely get their brains turned to goo on the altar of a main with this patch. Brainnnnsssss

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#826 - 2015-10-15 20:58:26 UTC
Jack De'alek wrote:
This idea has very gamebreaking implications. As it is right now, each individual character has a theoretical maximum sp. If I had been perfectly optimized and training skills at a rate of roughly 2500sp/hr, I would have significantly more sp than I do now. This of course would have been impossible, or near to it, given that this character's attributes were static based on my race and lineage choices.

This idea could, and will, for those with deep enough pockets, push characters beyond their theoretical maximum and effectively trivialize pilots who have been faithfully playing for years.

The only way I would support this idea is if characters could never exceed that theoretical sp number, because as someone who has stopped training for months at a time, it would benefit me immensely. If however, one could not inject skills or sp beyond theoretical maximum limits, then new players could never benefit from it. On the same token, characters my age who were more "dedicated" (loosely using the term because my commitment to my subscription has always been linked to my rl finances rather than my desire to pay/play) than i see less benefit as well.

Not gonna lie, I've often fantasized about being able to buy my "missing" skill points in one fell swoop, but just because I would stand to gain tremendously from this idea doesn't mean it isn't a terrible idea.

No, CCP. Don't do it. Eve has always been a long term game. Do not radically alter the purest, most brilliant game to date for the pursuit of a few more subs. Instant gratification types never last here in New Eden, and completely breaking the game isn't going to keep them around any longer. You're just going to betray your loyal followers. The blowback from this will be disastrous.

You have a very strange concept of "purity" when the Character Bazaar exists, brazenly allowing you to circumvent these imagined ideals.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#827 - 2015-10-15 20:58:50 UTC
yay day 1 rattlesnakes to gank

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#828 - 2015-10-15 21:00:14 UTC
How does skill lore work? I mean, how can you explain loss of a skill? Even in the Matrix Neo didn't forget karate after plugin in the program. You could argue that you could destroy the knowledge in the brain, a la Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind....but you lose that knowledge, you can't transfer it.

Yeah yeah it's a game, but come on. Transferring skills? I always thought when you trained, you were READING a skill BOOK. Now we just spend some cash, gets some skill points?

Jesus this is a bad idea.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder

Xander Scaul
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#829 - 2015-10-15 21:00:58 UTC
CCP this has got to be one of the worst ideas you've come up with lately. Unless you are trying to **** players off...
You guys are really starting to lose the plot at this point in time.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#830 - 2015-10-15 21:04:18 UTC
Babbet Bunny wrote:
Excellent way to correct the mistakes I made on my main to benefit an alt.

FYI- this does not create SP from thin air. just transfers at an equivalent or loss of SP.

I think this would be ultimately good for the game. I would limit how many and how offend it could be used though.

I was thinking the same thing. Like a 1 week or 1 month injection fatigue so you could not just blast millions of SP into 1 character. This would also help to keep the price in check as the demand would be kept down with the fatigue element.
Zanaris
Zolvent Zeen
#831 - 2015-10-15 21:04:38 UTC
As for not for not being called kil2 - just simply allow name change but have history of name changes so corps can check you out. Have it cost a plex or two so you get the cash.

Old "pointless" skillpoints - Have the transfer use transfer points in the same way remaps have points. 1-2 new each year.

Each time you transfer you'll move up a "bracket". The 0-5 500k, 5-50 400k etc should remain but if you have 3 mil sp and use a sp transfer, next time you'll only get 400k regardless only having 3.5 mil now. After that 200k (though with these rules maybe 300, 200, 100, 50, nil)

Limit the skills to be used up to lvl4 or only on those skills that you can train on a trial account. Maybe limit it to utility skills. I think you need to go through each skill and decide to what level you could train it to.

Let it only be transferred from characters on the same account or at least registered under the same email/credit card.

With these rules you'll have every character on average use it twice i guess.

I'd love to rename and regender. When i created this character all matari males looked so incredible ugly that there was no way i could even play the game flying one of those. It would be really nice to extract some SP from my 70 mil character and add to this one so she can clear belts of rats before mining.
I think it would feel wrong to add SPs to my 70 mil character and have her suddenly being able to fly Tengus or become a fully skilled trader. It wouldn't be her anymore. However, i would be fine to send some SP to an alt and having that one used for trading (ie lower sales costs etc, not "playing" the market).

This skill system that we currently have is a good tool against those who lack impulse control and "must have right now"s. They are just about always very annoying. While they're most likely poor IRL and can't afford many transfers, it's still nice to have them held down by the current skill system.
Mixu Paatelainen
Eve Refinery
#832 - 2015-10-15 21:05:32 UTC
You ever read something and the best articulation of what you think is slightly strained laughter?
Rob Kashuken
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#833 - 2015-10-15 21:05:42 UTC
CCP has always maintained that if you could fly a ship / use a certain mod before skill modifications, you will always be able to use it.

Will this remain the case?

If so, then whilst the ROI is bad, you could rapidly get a new character into any ship, then strip the SP and either list them on the bazaar as "perfect links characters" etc.



Horus V
The Destined
#834 - 2015-10-15 21:06:32 UTC
No. Please don't do this CCP

Shocked

Sad

V

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#835 - 2015-10-15 21:07:01 UTC
Rob Kashuken wrote:
CCP has always maintained that if you could fly a ship / use a certain mod before skill modifications, you will always be able to use it.

Will this remain the case?

If so, then whilst the ROI is bad, you could rapidly get a new character into any ship, then strip the SP and either list them on the bazaar as "perfect links characters" etc.




This does not mean what you think it means.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#836 - 2015-10-15 21:08:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Terra Chrall
Rob Kashuken wrote:
CCP has always maintained that if you could fly a ship / use a certain mod before skill modifications, you will always be able to use it.

Will this remain the case?

If so, then whilst the ROI is bad, you could rapidly get a new character into any ship, then strip the SP and either list them on the bazaar as "perfect links characters" etc.




CCP already stated that you will not be able remove skills that are pre-reqs to other skills and that it would be in stations only so you would not be stranded in space in a ship you could no longer fly. So your answer is No, you will lose the ability to fly ships that you remove the skills for.
Vabanaz Arjar
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#837 - 2015-10-15 21:08:30 UTC
Déjà vu!
I have seen this before and I know what happens next:

1.) the Maketing Guy who had this Genius Idea is right: it will raise the Revenue and a year later you'll see some solid numbers.
2.) however suddenly many customers will leave and the pretty numbers will be down to near zero just another year later.
3.) many People lose their Jobs but at this Stage the Marketing Guy already changed to another company - and continues spreading his wisdom elsewhere.


don't make me sad, ccp





voetius
Grundrisse
#838 - 2015-10-15 21:09:05 UTC

If it is just a way to bring the Character Bazaar in to the game and make things more transparent then it would be a good thing.

However, I do wonder if CCP have thought about the possible side-effects. E.g. would eve gambling sites be allowed to have SP packages as "rewards"?

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#839 - 2015-10-15 21:10:20 UTC
voetius wrote:

If it is just a way to bring the Character Bazaar in to the game and make things more transparent then it would be a good thing.

However, I do wonder if CCP have thought about the possible side-effects. E.g. would eve gambling sites be allowed to have SP packages as "rewards"?


How would this be somehow wrong? It's just an in-game item.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#840 - 2015-10-15 21:11:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
Barubary Evans wrote:
Soldarius wrote:

  1. Start new account using buddy program, 3x characters, each with 400k SP.
  2. Use free PLEX from buddy invite to buy extractors. Lots of them.
  3. Sell 1.2M SP for 600M isk (using current conversion rate*).
  4. Recycle characters, generating 3 new ones.
  5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until extractors are used.
  6. Buy more extractors with generated isk.
  7. Go back to 3.

*A quick check of the character Bazaar shows SP converts to isk at a conservative value of 500 isk/SP.

Free infinite isk farming is a go. At least until the market is completely obliterated. Also, one could do this on a single account to funnel SP directly into their main, regardless of the diminishing returns because who cares? Free SP is free. Titans for everyone. PLEX at 500kkkkkkkkkkkkkk. Gallente and Caldari living together. Mass hysteria!

lel, I'm reminded of this Charlton Heston clip: https://youtu.be/9IKVj4l5GU4

Read the devblog. You can't extract if you'd go under 5 mil. You would have to train at least to 5.5 mil to be able to extract. Your infinite recycling scenario is impossible.


C, right you are. Scratch that idea.

As far as other issues, PLEX prices will go up. Again. So will high-end learning implants as people begin creating accounts expressly for the purpose of SP farming for isk. And its completely passive income. Worse than moon goo.

With 32/26 in primary and secondary attribute (includes +5 implants and best neural remap for those skills), one would accumulate (32+26/2)=45 SP / min. That is 1.944M SP / mo. So to pay for the PLEX (1.2B isk) to run the account, one would have to charge 617.29 isk/SP before seeing any profit, and that does not include the cost of implants and skills. Also, there would be a delay of about 3 months before any sales could even be made because of the 5M SP limit.

So.... 30M isk for 50k SP? You'll forgive me if I don't think you'll be seeing a lot of newer players buying SP.

Also, the isk/hr on SP farming will be about 1.67M/hr at current PLEX rates. The cost of a pair of +5s is not terrible and it is a one-time cost that is easily distributed across the life-time of the pilot.

I'm thinking this entire thing will end badly.

On the subject of name changes for aurum... I'm fine with it so long as the characterId never changes.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY