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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#741 - 2015-10-15 19:49:43 UTC
Querns wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Querns wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

You're talking about buying a whole new character, I'm talking about improving an existing one. There's a difference, a big one.

There really isn't.

Then why don't more people buy a new character everytime the FOTM changes. You said it yourself:
Querns wrote:


Also, you're significantly overestimating the number of times any one person would rush out to the character bazaar and snatch up a custom-made character just to stay ahead of the FOTM.

Big difference between committing to a whole new character and farming some sanshas to get more SP for an existing, established character.

Grinding gnolls to level up vs. Character bazaar. Not the same thing, not at all.

It's actually the same thing.

No it isn't and repeating yourself won't make it true.
Wribbley
Molotov Holdings Limited
Molotov Coalition
#742 - 2015-10-15 19:49:58 UTC
Possibly got ignored or just too many posts after it. I'll try once more.

Don't get me wrong, I'm against it. However to play devils advocate.

Why not set a Hard cap at 20-25 mil sp (No injections of sp past that).

It means it can't be abused to make ++++Sp chars even higher (Yes they can still siphon SP off those accounts, thats their decision I guess)

It means new players won't be "gamebreaking" (or spending too much Isk/RL Isk). But they will get a decent boost.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#743 - 2015-10-15 19:50:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Good change. I think you should convert current learning implants to "extraction implants" and kill two birds with one stone.

Remember that the skill points are not being created. They have been earned by someone. The arguments which are made for the existence of the character bazaar apply here also.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Soleil Fournier
Fliet Pizza Delivery
Of Essence
#744 - 2015-10-15 19:50:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
This is brilliant!!!

I've always hated being stuck with skills I trained close to 10 years ago that I never use and never plan on using. Allowing me to take them out of my toon and sell them or give them to a lower SP alt is amazing.

Keeping my toon, name, character history, etc is also something great! I hated the idea of selling one of my toons to buy another toon that I'm no way connected to (and also being stuck with the previous owners skill choices).

Ship it now!!
Trancefo Delcroix
Cosmic Origin
#745 - 2015-10-15 19:50:44 UTC
Been playing EVE for 6 years loyaly as a paying customer.
Now I say, if you cross the line of

NO SP FOR RL MONEYOopsOopsOopsOops

I will quit immediatelly and never look back!
u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
Ore No More
#746 - 2015-10-15 19:50:54 UTC  |  Edited by: u3pog
Tzu Wu wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
before everyone goes mental here a few reasons why it is not pay2win:
- SP is traded between 2 chars, no SP is generated out of nothing
- SP is lost in transaction (SP sink)
- it is an alternative to an already existing feature (char bazzar)
- it is mostly only useful for young chars

and last but not least having SP and winning are two different things.

would i use it? probably not because i have too much SP already. It would be highly inefficient to use it on this char.
do i mind that noobs could potentially have high SP chars in their first month? no
is this a good change? i don't know



Finally someone with some damned sense, thank you.


Many people say they are not happy with this, yet player base is shrinking every day...Sure some vets might quit, but many more will join. People are lazy, they do not want to wait 2 years to fly that shiny ship...

Yeah we, older players had to wait, but times are changing and if we want EVE to survive in the years ahead, CCP need ot change not only the surface, but all the way down to the foundations of the game.

Right now those lazy people come into the game, play for a while and quit, because "EVE is too hard and time consuming". I've heard all that "survival of the fittest", even I supported this idea, but seeing 20k online people, as opposed to 50-60 few years back is not good, and I intend to play this game 'till I retire, which will be in many years, so I support bringing in new flesh and more targets into the game.
Ben Musana
Doomheim
#747 - 2015-10-15 19:51:54 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
For people quitting in protest I remind them that Operation Magic School Bus does accept donations to help out the new players. Yes, this is a 'can I haz' post but it is one where the material will be put to good use, not just lining a wallet or hanger. Contract to me if you wish to donate.

m


I think before some spent all there goodies before they leave, they trash it as a protest event!
Mai Ling Ravencroft
Duragon Pioneer Group
#748 - 2015-10-15 19:52:34 UTC
Eternal Bob wrote:
Interesting how the most popular reactions to this on /r/eve have been the positive ones. Luckily this forum isn't the only place devs go for feedback.


Too bad a lot of them on reddit are newer players who don't understand the failings of this. Like I pointed out before, Karmafleet, a reddit based corp is rife with pilots who bought pilots on the bazaar and are consistantly dieing in noobish ways.
Triss Meri
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#749 - 2015-10-15 19:52:35 UTC
I'm going to play devils advocate on this.

What not set a cool down on SP pack usage and/extraction? Every 6 months, Every year? A max of 500,000 SP in X time period?

Say someone needs to finally finish crusier V or maybe train the other JF skills... Perhaps they can't do doctrines in their new corp for 60 days so they're pretty much useless until then?

30-90 days or so is more of a PITA then anything since they want to focus on their current skill path. They don't want to extract anything/sell any SP.


On the flip side... so many people have wasted trading or mining skills... Once again... can only extract X SP in Y time frame... so this year they get to offload a portion of those...

It slows down the process while still allowing people to customize without "buying" their character.

Remember, I'm trying to look at the flip side and be "objective". Don't flame me to death plz :)

Braxton Tscharke
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#750 - 2015-10-15 19:52:45 UTC
GREAT IDEA!! .....but seriously though if the goal is to improve the new player struggle give them 4 or 5 mil Sp on start so they can get balls deep into cruiser territory. Or if the goal is to make dank coin for the company sell the ability to change names on charictors? I have three! Take my credit card! Here, have my wife..... Want 5 plex a pop? Take it! TAKE IT!!!!
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#751 - 2015-10-15 19:52:55 UTC
u3pog wrote:

Yeah we, older players had go wait, but times are changing and if we want EVE to survive in the years ahead, CCP need ot change not only the surface, but all the way down to the foundations of the game.


Changes like this are not how you prolong the life of a game. They're how you squeeze what little cash remains from it before folding your company and retiring to a tropical island where no one eats pickled rotten shark.
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#752 - 2015-10-15 19:53:15 UTC
This is a great option added on the already existing character bazaar.

New players are more likely to make poor skill choices at the beginning, and allowing them to fix those (for a cost) while limiting the ability to re-spec for older toons is fine by me.

+1

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#753 - 2015-10-15 19:53:33 UTC
I have removed some troll and off-topic posts.

Quote:
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Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

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Interstellar Services Department
Niriel Greez
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#754 - 2015-10-15 19:53:59 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Querns wrote:

Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.



Consistency is what matters. Loyalty. You do not change fundamentals after 12 years. Because that way you trick player base, ie your customers. I am sure if they started like p2w game, EVE would be dead long ago, I doubt it would even make 5 years.


Consistency might matter, but newer players are in such a bad position nowadays that something has to change.

This might be somewhat overkill and I do believe it needs to be toned down, but I'm in favor of anything that improves the new player experience because it's the purest form of sandbox content CCP can add to the game; more players in space.

And while it would be nice to set some further restrictions on this idea, it can hardly be considered 'P2W' any more than we already have available. You can buy as much SP on the bazaar as you want and you can buy as much ISK as you want.

I think the most reasonable question is, if an older player is allowed to circumvent painful experiences in the game through the purchase or selling of PLEX, why should a newer player not be entitled to a better starting experience through SP, especially given how this 'power' shifts further towards older players with every year that passes?
drunklies
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#755 - 2015-10-15 19:54:07 UTC
Querns wrote:
drunklies wrote:
Querns wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Querns wrote:

Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.



Consistency is what matters. Loyalty. You do not change fundamentals after 12 years. Because that way you trick player base, ie your customers. I am sure if they started like p2w game, EVE would be dead long ago, I doubt it would even make 5 years.

Frankly, not really. An ancient player's subscription is not worth appreciably more than a new player's.

You could argue that older players have more accounts, but given that the account/player ratio is about 1.5, this falls flat on the grand scale.


It does go deeper then that though. Older players for the back bone of eve in many ways, they provide the services, the support, industry, corp management an a bunch of stuff i dont understand.

Yes, new players could do this, and might, but don't say that old players are worth only as much as new. At the very least they have the benefit of proven loyalty.

Even if this is true, only a very small, very foolish portion of old players actually believe that having a big SP number matters or that having to alarm clock to start a new skill matters in TYOOL 2015. We can suffer their loss easily.


You know what, your damned right. Older players understand that Eve isnt all about the SP. It's almost like they learned something in the time it took them to grind what they have. It's almost like the experience is more important than the SP. It's almost like selling SP and pretending is experience is a ******* ******** idea.

And your right again, it doesnt really matter, but in the context of Eve, and Eve's history, it is important, and it does matter, cause it is the pinnacle of achievement in that field. The records recorded by guineas dont matter, until someone is interested.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#756 - 2015-10-15 19:54:30 UTC
Aren Dar wrote:
One of the things I've observed in dealing with newer players is the number of people who have dropped out over the years because they joined with the assumption that they could grind game time. Exacerbated when there were a lot of people in a single group who were of the same mentality - eventually lots of them burnt out.

And you get plenty of people who come into the game thinking they can grind PLEX to sub their accounts. They usually burn out before their trial has ended. Some losses are inevitable, it doesn't mean you change the fundamental nature of the game so everyone can have free game time and be able to grind SP. These people will likely quit whatever you do anyway.
Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#757 - 2015-10-15 19:55:44 UTC
Kilian Katar wrote:
Nafensoriel wrote:
The general nature of this type of moniterization lead to extremely abusive scenarios among player bases.

Skill packets would be far harder to trace for RMT. By allowing this type of item you are opening an unregulated floodgate on RMT SP conversions that you will be flat out unable to track because they are never converted to isk.

The only effect this idea will cause is hyperinflation and a more depressive NPE.

Not supported.


ISK isn't the only thing tracked, CCP can track items pretty easily too, such as plex, yea they noticed some random guy leaving an ibis or cargo can out in a random safespot with 50 plex in and someone completely unrelated comes and picks it up... obvious much.


You misunderstand the gravity of the issue.
Items like this allow for completely out of game legitimate RMT. There is only ever 1 item transferred and it doesn't require an explicit or old account to do. I can make a thousand throwaway accounts.. charge people real life dollars for the SP I extract from them and make a single trade without CCP frankly being able to do a damn thing because of lack of proof.

I can even roll the cost of the plex into the model so the character being extracted is 100% legitimate use.. the SP trade item just allows for out of game cash to be exchanged without explicit knowledge or logging.
drunklies
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#758 - 2015-10-15 19:56:44 UTC
Niriel Greez wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Querns wrote:

Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.



Consistency is what matters. Loyalty. You do not change fundamentals after 12 years. Because that way you trick player base, ie your customers. I am sure if they started like p2w game, EVE would be dead long ago, I doubt it would even make 5 years.


Consistency might matter, but newer players are in such a bad position nowadays that something has to change.

This might be somewhat overkill and I do believe it needs to be toned down, but I'm in favor of anything that improves the new player experience because it's the purest form of sandbox content CCP can add to the game; more players in space.

And while it would be nice to set some further restrictions on this idea, it can hardly be considered 'P2W' any more than we already have available. You can buy as much SP on the bazaar as you want and you can buy as much ISK as you want.

I think the most reasonable question is, if an older player is allowed to circumvent painful experiences in the game through the purchase or selling of PLEX, why should a newer player not be entitled to a better starting experience through SP, especially given how this 'power' shifts further towards older players with every year that passes?


People always seem to be saying this. People were saying this in 2006, when others had 2 years on them. Guess what, it didn't really matter then, and it doesn't really matter now.
Nou Mene
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#759 - 2015-10-15 19:57:49 UTC
Hard topic...

About p2w... character bazaar already represent p2w (sp wise), so i don't get that particular argument, and negative feedback. But i do feel this could be abused.

IF this is happening, I would tie the diminishing returns to toon sp difference so:
SPa, SPb: represent the SP held by "a" and "b", and "a" is buying SP from "b"
SPb/SPa * SPa-b ; if SPb/SPa >=1 => SPb == SPa

BUT i would prefer to just give SP on some skills to new players by completing opportunities or tutorials.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#760 - 2015-10-15 19:58:35 UTC
I want to re-iterate. That if you do support this idea, you should NOT support diminishing of SP for toons with higher skills. If SP is to be directed traded the tax should be the Aurum / PLEX needed to move it. Not the SP itself - SP requires a player sub / money to produce - as such it should never be diminished based on the *BS* of prestige.

If CCP follows that logic I would support this idea.