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Don ZOLA

Omniscient Order

Likes received: 273

#721 - 2015-10-15 19:43:09 UTC

Querns wrote:

Don ZOLA wrote:

Querns wrote:

Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.

Consistency is what matters. Loyalty. You do not change fundamentals after 12 years. Because that way you trick player base, ie your customers. I am sure if they started like p2w game, EVE would be dead long ago, I doubt it would even make 5 years.

Frankly, not really. An ancient player's subscription is not worth appreciably more than a new player's.

You could argue that older players have more accounts, but given that the account/player ratio is about 1.5, this falls flat on the grand scale.

Frankly, then you do not know much about how business works. Regardless is it game or not. As we are all customers here. Customer`s loyalty is something companies work on for decades. And you do not get customers loyalty without being consistent.

If company does not have respect for existing customers, by changing the fundamentals which are one of the reasons those customer became loyal then it will not have respect for new ones either. And no matter how much you spam/argue/challenge on this forum in order to get some personal gain, it cannot influence how that relationship works.

While I agree that vets subscription is not worth even a single dime more than new players, still, people who spent thousands of bucks through years are one of the main reasons this game still exists. Because way more people got in the game by invitations, referrals, buzz created by players than CCP marketing activities. Loyal customers made it. And they should be treated with respect.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know

Moac Tor

Cyber Core

Immediate Destruction

Likes received: 821

#722 - 2015-10-15 19:43:18 UTC

Eternal Bob wrote:

Interesting how the most popular reactions to this on /r/eve have been the positive ones. Luckily this forum isn't the only place devs go for feedback.

It isn't interesting of surprising, Redit has always been a forum for the propagation of terrible ideas. It is mostly a cesspit. Just look at the recent ship skin bug debacle to get an idea of the type of entitled and short sighted suggestions they come out with. If I were CCP I'd stay well away from taking any suggestions off redit if they want to see eve in a good place for many years to come. If they want a short term cash grab though then redit is the perfect place.

Querns

Science and Trade Institute

Caldari State

Likes received: 2,902

#723 - 2015-10-15 19:43:53 UTC

drunklies wrote:

Querns wrote:

Don ZOLA wrote:

Querns wrote:

Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.

It does go deeper then that though. Older players for the back bone of eve in many ways, they provide the services, the support, industry, corp management an a bunch of stuff i dont understand.

Yes, new players could do this, and might, but don't say that old players are worth only as much as new. At the very least they have the benefit of proven loyalty.

Even if this is true, only a very small, very foolish portion of old players actually believe that having a big SP number matters or that having to alarm clock to start a new skill matters in TYOOL 2015. We can suffer their loss easily.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Monasucks

BLACK SQUADRON.

Get Off My Lawn

Likes received: 163

#724 - 2015-10-15 19:43:54 UTC | Edited by: Monasucks

So CCP is in need of money right?

How about we the player help them to introduce something, which does not affect the essential gameplay that much - but will bring them money?

Before I will put up my ideas for this - let se the causes of the losing money?

SOV is now PVE not PVP - this needs to be fixed in the sooner feature by CCP - but will only bring money on the long term
High Skills for PVP e.g. Battleships / Capitals are now mostly wasted - as they can't be used anymore by the players with the changes. In anyway CCP needs to come up with something new or change it back - but that will bring money in the longterm - right not in the short term.

Ideas:

-Allow neural Remaps to be bought for plex ( honestly this will not have a hard affect, and we ( the high SP players should not be oppose it ) but limit it to once every two monthes or something like this
-Allow players below 10-15m SP to "flush" all there SP for 2-6 plexes and they can reallocate them ( Skill books will end up in the hangar or will still be there but trained and 0 )
-Maybe give this option to older players let's say 20m SP will cost +2 Plexes, 30m SP cost +4 Plexes etc. So it's incredibly expensive plus this skillpoints cannot be transfered. But stop this options latest at 40m SP.
-Give those P2W Players a little option to win:
-New Accounts, which are new ( e.g. CC, Paypalaccount etc. is not in your Database ) can buy only 1x a boost of double speed skilling for the first month
-Give a option to rename once a year for a plex or so - but keep the name history in the account.

Another point - as older EVE gets - as harder it will be for new players,
so give them some advantage, like for the first 4 Weeks + 10 at each attribute and than the fatigue hits, if he than continues for another month, give him the option to pay for +8, and in the third month for +6 and after that this options is gone.

And after this short boost, she/he will still be with us and might go for the last "p2w" which was there in EVE all the time PLEX.

Never to forget - there is no winning in EVE - it's a sandbox, based on time and the path you choose, don't make that time less worse - as this time is SP.

But never ever make SP sell able like you indented in that blog post.
You make the risk of buying a character worse less. This should still be a high risk. ( standing, wasted SP you don't need etc. )

Monasucks Tumblr

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drunklies

Federal Navy Academy

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 32

#725 - 2015-10-15 19:44:35 UTC

Davir Sometaww wrote:

Well it could be modified.

To where you can pay a certain fee in plex for a "name change" or "skill revamp".

Proposal: Skill Revamp;

-All your SP is allocated into unallocated skillpoints.
-This will have a 1 year Cooldown.
-Cost: 2-3 Plex or certain equivalent $$.

Why:

-Everybody makes mistakes. This lets a player start with a clean slate on what ships he/she wants to fly or do in his/her career in eve online.
-One year cooldown - ensures that this doesn't get "abused".

Proposal: Name Change:

-Change your characters name
-Note: will still say your old name on new tab of : Past History/Past Employment
-Cost: 2 Plex? Can be adjusted as needed.
-This will have a 6 month - 1 year cooldown?

Why:

-Everybody makes mistakes. This lets the player that named his character something stupid like: "Fat Kid Loves Cake" to something serious if he/she wanted too.
-You are still able to see the past history of the name.
-long cooldown - ensures that this doesn't get "abused".

This would be a far better system, allowing for repairing of **** ups (exhumers 5 really was a waste), but without allowing for rampant abuse as CCP's proposed system does.

Hashtag Rare Pepe

Doomheim

Likes received: 12

#726 - 2015-10-15 19:45:02 UTC

Kilian Katar wrote:

Davir Sometaww wrote:

Well it could be modified.

To where you can pay a certain fee in plex for a "name change" or "skill revamp".

You single handily came out with more bright ideas than CCP has in a good 6 months or more

Nice samef**ging. Make it more obvious next time.

PotatoOverdose

School of Applied Knowledge

Caldari State

Likes received: 2,776

#727 - 2015-10-15 19:45:03 UTC

Querns wrote:

PotatoOverdose wrote:

You're talking about buying a whole new character, I'm talking about improving an existing one. There's a difference, a big one.

There really isn't.

Then why don't more people buy a new character everytime the FOTM changes. You said it yourself:

Querns wrote:

Also, you're significantly overestimating the number of times any one person would rush out to the character bazaar and snatch up a custom-made character just to stay ahead of the FOTM.

Big difference between committing to a whole new character and farming some sanshas to get more SP for an existing, established character.

Grinding gnolls to level up vs. Character bazaar. Not the same thing, not at all.

Unknown Enterprises 11
Kilian Katar Unknown Enterprises Likes received: 11	#728 - 2015-10-15 19:45:04 UTC 3 okay lets put this simply, if you think this is a bad idea "like" this post. CCP Rise to become CCP BadIdea

Grimmash

New Jovian Exploration Department

New Jovian Collective

Likes received: 4

#729 - 2015-10-15 19:45:09 UTC

I do not like this idea. If Eve is to be persistent and about choices, this doesn't really fit. This change will make character age meaningless. Not in the "I've played longer than you, grrr!" sense, but in a very real recruiting and security sense, this diminishes tools for validating players by reputation, by age and, by proxy, experience.

It also allows for spies, corp thieves, etc, to break out of the persistence cycle of needing to go dormant, or train an alt, or start fresh, or keep a stable of clean accounts handy and training to meet the infiltration needs. You could clear a corp out, pump the skills into a new alt with the isk you got, and move on. We'll have no way to know if that new bro with high skills is just someone who paid to get ahead, or someone who is utilizing the system to accelerate the process of conniving into the corp the repeat the cycle. For many corps, I imagine any character with an unbalanced time v sp profile will immediately be rejected. In game where trust and reputations are a big part of things, this is not a step that will help new players find the groups they need to join to really enjoy Eve. This system will just make all characters, and especially young characters, even more suspect.

There are a lot of cool things you could do and charge a fee for. You could let players pay money to reset skills already earned. You could let players pay to alter aspects of a character. You could drag the out of game bazaar into an in-game market.

If the time it takes to train skills is a real barrier to new players, then perhaps charging to get more skills is not the answer, but reevaluating how skills work and how they accrue over time needs an entire overhaul.

Nafensoriel

Brutor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 269

#730 - 2015-10-15 19:45:14 UTC

The general nature of this type of moniterization lead to extremely abusive scenarios among player bases.

Skill packets would be far harder to trace for RMT. By allowing this type of item you are opening an unregulated floodgate on RMT SP conversions that you will be flat out unable to track because they are never converted to isk.

The only effect this idea will cause is hyperinflation and a more depressive NPE.

Not supported.

Querns

Science and Trade Institute

Caldari State

Likes received: 2,902

#731 - 2015-10-15 19:46:04 UTC

Don ZOLA wrote:

Querns wrote:

Don ZOLA wrote:

Querns wrote:

Having to struggle with a nascent skill system and without the tools necessary to manage it does not somehow entitle those ancient souls to anything.

This is a fairly outmoded belief. Loyalty is actually extremely unimportant in TYOOL 2015. If loyalty was important, Half-Life 3 would already be out. However, with the success of Dota 2, Team Fortress 2, and CS:GO, there's absolutely no financial reason to honor the loyalty of die-hard Valve lovers by releasing Half-Life 3.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Terra Chrall

Doomheim

Likes received: 69

#732 - 2015-10-15 19:46:14 UTC

drunklies wrote:

Querns wrote:

drunklies wrote:

Not having done so does not entitle those mewling newbies to anything either.

SP injectors aren't an entitlement. They're an option.

An option born of entitlement, of people wanting to bypass the hoops that everyone else jumped through.

And before someone jumps in saying something about wanting to make everyone suffer, you are missing the point. It's the experience that is valuable, not the 'suffering'. Removing the need for that experience means you are devaluing the quality of the players available, simply because they do not have the experience that other players do.

So you are saying they should ban the character bazaar and character should not be traded since they miss out on the experience of skilling up the character they are purchasing?
As long as character trading is permitted I am all for this new idea that would let people have the option to modify their character on the small scale as well.

I don't spend money on PLEX, I pay for a subscription and earn my ISK. If I could spend some of that ISK on some SP to speed up my train into my last cruiser V then that is awesome. But as long as someone can from day one, go out and buy a character with all Cruiser Vs, or Capital, or Command ship, etc then why not?

I say CCP goes forward with this new idea or removes it and the bazaar. I don't really see any arguments that allow for the bazaar but not this new feature.

Kilian Katar

Unknown Enterprises

Likes received: 11

#733 - 2015-10-15 19:46:22 UTC

Hashtag Rare Pepe wrote:

Kilian Katar wrote:

Davir Sometaww wrote:

Well it could be modified.

To where you can pay a certain fee in plex for a "name change" or "skill revamp".

You single handily came out with more bright ideas than CCP has in a good 6 months or more

Nice samef**ging. Make it more obvious next time.

Wrong guess scrub.

Pistonbroke

Super Villains

Pandemic Horde

Likes received: 29

#734 - 2015-10-15 19:46:34 UTC

Skinzee wrote:

Pistonbroke wrote:

This is a terrible idea.

Newer players who want to get ahead in the game can use the character bazaar to get a toon. Evidence of it changing hands is in the forums for all to see, so the disingenuous claptrap about bad rep does not hold water.

Losing the ability to gauge from the age of a character his potential skills will ruin various balances within the game, and will be very horrible for pirates, solo pvpers etc

Have you heard of "street sleepers"? these are super tuned cars which look to all intents and purposes like the standard vehicle that granny uses to run down to the supermarket to buy milk and cat-food. underneath however, they are turbocharged nutters. That's what you are proposing to create.

This is clearly a cash cow, and whilst we don't mind ccp having cash cows to milk, please bear in mind that we are already in the shed every month with our udders out.

Here is my alternative suggestion.

Have your SP reallocators, by all means, but make them only work for the toon the SPs are extracted from.
Give them a delay (24 hrs?) so that you cant fly into the station a maxxed out BS pilot, and undock as a maxxed out carrier pilot 2 mins later.
I'd happily take a 5-1 loss in the exchange rate to get rid of some of the more ******** things I've changed and to gain a small boost on some skills I would still like to gain.

Permit changes of this nature by all means, but don't create the ability for the already super rich and Highly skilled pilots to rattle up to 500m SPs within a month of the change. Likewise don't create the game breaking situation where a two month old character can be able to fly every sup-cap in the game to maximum proficiency, just because he has RL isk to burn, and wants to create a "street sleeper".

If this goes ahead, I for one will finally say enough already, and bid farewell to eve, and hello to one of the other games which are rapidly making steps ahead, such as Elite Dangerous, or Star Citizen. I'll wish you luck, and I won't look back.

Basically, your arguement is purely based on PvP...

So what your saying is that you wont PvP with someone unless they are MUCH younger than you because you know you 'out skillpoint them'?

Coward... SKillpoints doesnt mean everything... I could beat you 1 on 1 in PvP with this character with 2m SP just because I have a counter fit.. or I out manually pilot you.. or I BLOB you...

If your going to leave because I get to fly a shiny ship in a month when it took you 3 months... Go then..

clearly you misunderstand, Let me spell it out to you. - A six week old player might choose not to engage a 10 year old player, for obvious reasons.

This change creates the situation where the money rich player can create a toon with the skills of a 10 year old player, that looks like a 2 month old player.

So my argument is entirely the converse to your assumption.

And when it comes to calling people coward.... who's the one in the NPC corp?

Querns

Science and Trade Institute

Caldari State

Likes received: 2,902

#735 - 2015-10-15 19:47:38 UTC

PotatoOverdose wrote:

Querns wrote:

PotatoOverdose wrote:

You're talking about buying a whole new character, I'm talking about improving an existing one. There's a difference, a big one.

There really isn't.

Then why don't more people buy a new character everytime the FOTM changes. You said it yourself:

Querns wrote:

Also, you're significantly overestimating the number of times any one person would rush out to the character bazaar and snatch up a custom-made character just to stay ahead of the FOTM.

It's actually the same thing.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

BuzzzK1lll

PvP Industries Inc

Likes received: 3

#736 - 2015-10-15 19:48:17 UTC

Pay to win? Nope. All it does is take away the smug expression of some one with high skill points flying something that a low sp toon can't. It reminds me of the Dr. Seuss story of the Sneetches. Some of them had bellies with stars and some had none upon thars.

You fly the same ships with the same modules. There is no power creep!

What it will do is allow new players to actually play the game at higher levels sooner. They will be able to do activities that generate isk to sustain them selves sooner. They can also enter aspects of the game which they would find enjoyable much sooner rather than muddle around for several months until they are trained for it.

It sounds like new player retention and content generation to me. It also does not affect me negatively in any way.

So lets say I am in a HAC and have it trained to 4 and a 1 month old toon has it trained to 5 and we get in a solo fight. Is that pay to win? I guess it depends if Eve is only a stat based game and pilot skill doesn't matter. Personally, I wouldn't care if it was a 1 month old toon or a 8 year old toon with more SP than me. All I know it that I got a fight from a 1 month old toon that wasn't in a t1 frig or a poorly fitted t1 cruiser. More content for me! I win!

Kilian Katar

Unknown Enterprises

Likes received: 11

#737 - 2015-10-15 19:48:40 UTC

Nafensoriel wrote:

ISK isn't the only thing tracked, CCP can track items pretty easily too, such as plex, yea they noticed some random guy leaving an ibis or cargo can out in a random safespot with 50 plex in and someone completely unrelated comes and picks it up... obvious much.

43
Rumbless Likes received: 43	#738 - 2015-10-15 19:49:08 UTC 4 If this happens, I quit.

Under Presher

Perkone

Caldari State

Likes received: 2

#739 - 2015-10-15 19:49:29 UTC

rofflesausage wrote:

Overly complex for what should actually be possible:

Name changes - the 'reputation' reason is total nonsense, given you can simply buy / sell a character anyway. Simply have a 'previously known as' tab in the show info for that character.
Character SP reallocation - Made a mistake? Want a new direction? Pay to do so. Same SP amount. Limited on the number of times per year.

Trading SP across characters I'm not a fan of, certainly not with the diminishing returns aspect. I'd much rather the focus be on letting new players gain / start with more SP.

As for the actual character trading - give people the ability to turn a character into an in game item. It should be tradable, be subject to the normal scam rules, and destroyable like any item in the game.

Are these 'Transneural Skill Packets' normal items that can be destroyed in game? Like PLEX?

This is a much better idea.


Querns Science and Trade Institute Caldari State Likes received: 2,902	#740 - 2015-10-15 19:49:43 UTC 6 Rumbless wrote: If this happens, I quit. Holding your subscription hostage is a time-honored tradition, and I'm glad to see you are honoring your ancestors in this fashion. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

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