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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#421 - 2015-10-15 17:52:55 UTC
Thalen Draganos wrote:
I'm not a fan of this idea as a whole, BUT, I have been saying for years now that I wished there was a way to get rid of skills I don't want and reallocate them to skills I do want. With that in mind, is that possible? To use an extractor to remove the skill points I don't want with a Transneural Skill Extractor and turn that in to Transneural Skill Packets that I can then turn in to free xp and reallocate? Having 170mil sp on this character alone, I would absolutely love to shuffle that around or use them on my other characters. That alone would be a dream come true.

It's a bit limited, but essentially, yes. You'll have to pay a cost in either Aurum or ISK (by buying them from the secondary market) for the privilege, but you can absolutely do this.

The limitation is that you can't suckle away skills that are a prerequisite to other skills. Like, if you wanted to remove Gallente Frigate, but had Gallente Destroyer trained, you couldn't remove Gallente Frigate without first eliminating Gallente Destroyer. This is mostly so you can't put yourself in a potentially weird situation with respect to prerequisite skills.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Monasucks
BLACK SQUADRON.
The Bastion
#422 - 2015-10-15 17:53:01 UTC
Jason Atavuli wrote:
No, I'm really not feeling this

CCP if you push this through anyway regardless of popular opinion, could you at least make that monument in Jita destructible please?



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Barakach
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#423 - 2015-10-15 17:53:41 UTC
I can appreciate arguments both ways. On one hand there are new players who feel it takes too long to get up and running, and the overwhelming feeling that skills should be non-transferable.

At the same time, we can freely trade characters is which the same thing. Free skills for a price, but you just can't choose.

I can think of a few things.

1) Make sure it costs more to get these special untrained skills. They have a lot of benefit over purchasing a character for skills.
2) Possibly make the benefit cap much lower and not just diminishing returns but does not work after X SP. Most new players may be perfectly happy with getting to 15m sp quickly, then they can work for the ISK and purchase a character. Leave large SP transfers to char transfers.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#424 - 2015-10-15 17:54:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ima Wreckyou
Another important question: Will it be ok to ransom for skillpoints?
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#425 - 2015-10-15 17:54:21 UTC
I have removed a disrespectful and offensive post.

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Skinzee
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#426 - 2015-10-15 17:55:21 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:
One reason why the Character Bazaar and the SP booster plan are critically different: Intel.

Right now, with the way that skills work, you can generally get a rough idea of what the character might be capable of based on their age and corp history. If they're 5 years old, but their corp history is dotted with NPC corps taking up half the time, and their killboards don't show any activity during those times, you can generally guess that they only have about 2.5 years'-worth of SP despite being five years old. Additionally, you can gauge how well they might be able to fight based on their corp history, as somebody who has been in and out of the game is going to probably be less-skilled than someone with less age, but more "dedication" / "consecutive play."

If you see a char that's a year old and had been sold on the Bazaar, you still see that the char has about a year's-worth of SP and what skills they have (based on the Bazaar listing).

Looking at available information, you can make a reasonable guess at what sort of skills and abilities a pilot has.

With SP packs, that goes out the window.

Before, when you saw a month-old NPC char on the battlefield, you knew that they were a month-old char and could estimate their skills based on that. Now, you'll see that month-old char, and instead of the question being "are they a newbie or a vet laying a trap?" you'll have to add "If it's a vet, how much SP have they boosted?"

The same goes for year-old chars. For five-year-old chars. Even for ten-year-old chars, because you have no way of knowing if they took SP out and got rid of it or used it for other skills.

Where before you had an imperfect way to make an imperfect guess at a character's capabilities (something that takes a bit of skill and sleuthing to do well), you're now left with absolutely nothing. No amount of game knowledge is going to give you an idea about what those pilots are capable of until you actually engage. It removes an element of planning and thought without giving anything back in its place.


Your argument is purely based on PvP...

Yes, you are currently able to 'assume' a character has roughly so many SP by there age but if this was real life, you wouldnt ask someone for there DOB before you fight or asked if they have had martial arts training would you? No.. its irrelavent and just a luxury that you have.

People keep saying that this game is about 'mastering' and 'playing the game etc'...

This argument is irrelevant... People say you can play the game from the start and SP are irrelavent... You can PvP with -1m sp etc etc... But your saying just because you wouldnt know how many skillpoints a player has roughly, its unfair?

I could buy my girlfriend a 10year character now, tell her to fly a capital ship in a level 5 mission and she wouldnt have a clue what to do...

SP ISNT EVERYTHING... EXPERIENCE IS ALSO REQUIRED.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#427 - 2015-10-15 17:55:24 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Another important question: Will it me ok to ransom for skillpoints?



Of course, it is an in game item....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#428 - 2015-10-15 17:55:32 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

It's bad because selling SP for isk, in any arbitrary amount, in any arbitrary package removes hard choices from the game. I like hard choices. I like playing games with hard choices.

Today you can buy a character, true. But that is a character crafted by another, with it's own flaws and skills not made to tailor for each individual. And you pay a market rate for them - some combinations of SP are worth more than others depending on the meta. Creating such characters, choosing to buy characters that are imperfect in one way or another represents hard choices made by either the buyer or the seller, and this is good.

I'm not sure thats a meaningful differentiator though. If I want a link alt, I buy a link alt. If I want a dread alt, I buy a dread alt. If I want a super alt, I buy a super alt. etc. I will get what I pay for, and its irrelevant to that core purchase decision if they also have (or don't have) heavy assault missile or astrometric skills etc?

F
Thalen Draganos
Nabisco Liberation Collective
#429 - 2015-10-15 17:55:34 UTC
Querns wrote:
Thalen Draganos wrote:
I'm not a fan of this idea as a whole, BUT, I have been saying for years now that I wished there was a way to get rid of skills I don't want and reallocate them to skills I do want. With that in mind, is that possible? To use an extractor to remove the skill points I don't want with a Transneural Skill Extractor and turn that in to Transneural Skill Packets that I can then turn in to free xp and reallocate? Having 170mil sp on this character alone, I would absolutely love to shuffle that around or use them on my other characters. That alone would be a dream come true.

It's a bit limited, but essentially, yes. You'll have to pay a cost in either Aurum or ISK (by buying them from the secondary market) for the privilege, but you can absolutely do this.

The limitation is that you can't suckle away skills that are a prerequisite to other skills. Like, if you wanted to remove Gallente Frigate, but had Gallente Destroyer trained, you couldn't remove Gallente Frigate without first eliminating Gallente Destroyer. This is mostly so you can't put yourself in a potentially weird situation with respect to prerequisite skills.

Thank you.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#430 - 2015-10-15 17:56:01 UTC
CCP something to think about regarding the extractors and packets:

Please balance the extractors so it's a little bit more worth it to use it over a skill packet?

Like if extracting a skill ends up resulting in the same yield of SP compared to a skill packet, then what will be the point of a skill extractor other than a noob trap?

I've got a tengu pilot with like 3 million SP tied up in BC's I'll never use.
Madgic
Nexis.
Entropic Collective
#431 - 2015-10-15 17:56:13 UTC
Querns wrote:
Madgic wrote:
When did Eve become Facebook?

Payers don't have to play the game to earn isk, and soon they wont even have to log on to max out their skills.

No No No NO Worst Idea ever please Don't candy Crush my game.

Ah, yes, the onerous burden of logging in.

I have a 300 day skill queue and I can donate PLEX to my account to keep it alive from without. Clearly, the fact that I need to log in to manage it about twice a year is what made my SP have meaning.



Surely you are exactly what is causing the downturn in player base then, Why even sub, if your not going to play?,
Missy Bunnz
Perkone
Caldari State
#432 - 2015-10-15 17:56:59 UTC
Just No.
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
#433 - 2015-10-15 17:57:04 UTC
Whilst on the theme of forcing the poor to sell their organs to pay their bills could I also buy other peoples killmails, corp history and standings please?

Fear God and Thread Nought

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#434 - 2015-10-15 17:57:26 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Querns wrote:

Except no one on the internet actually performs the research. They proclaim "X is correlated with Y, therefore X causes Y" and are done. What's worse, is that people believe them.

That doesn't mean we have to stoop to the standards of the lowest common denominator of the internet, does it?

Frankly, it does.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Malinger
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#435 - 2015-10-15 17:59:42 UTC
No don't do this, not in any form or way. Stop now.
Skilo
Lisnave
Pandemic Horde
#436 - 2015-10-15 18:00:09 UTC
I've been playing this game since 2003

I'm a proud "owner" of a multi million skill point char who took me 12 years to get

To imagine someone can now just join eve and buy it of with real money will make me unsub all my accounts

I've been with CCP for the good times and the bad times but for this i will not!!!!

Hey i can stop playing for 1 year and if i decide to return get the euros i saved and buy all the skill points i've "lost"

IF i decide to return ofc

Want to take the risk CCP?

I'm sure i'm not the only one thinking the same way
Fool Nalelmir
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#437 - 2015-10-15 18:00:34 UTC
Really, I mean really....

Ok I can get behind a lot of things you guys try but this is just bad. Sure this game is hard to get into sure as a new player you have to take your lumps and such. But you know part of the good thing is that when you say I am a 80sp pilot or what ever it is a point of pride. I kind of feel like the last 3 years of paying for my skill training and the waiting and drooling and wishing to get to the point I am at with the ships I can fly will be a waste. I mean really whats the point. I don't know if I will unsub my accounts but if this is the way it is gonna be then maybe people are rite it will be the end at least for me. This whole everything for Aurum thing is getting way out of hand. It's getting more and more like some freemium phone app crap.

If you want to get and retain new people that's great I am all for it but this make eve easier thing can only go so far. I don't play WOW and play EVE because it is not an easy game it requires you to think and work and suck it up when you lose. If I wanted an easy button there are plenty of other choices out there.

Try this on for size,

1) we need new blood advertise. I almost never see anything about eve anywhere. Heck do a search for MMOs and eve only shows up on a fraction of the info that's out there and the game is what 12 years old. Hell make an add and put it on HULU or something. But get the word out there. I mean it is like we expect to keep the lights on by word of mouth.

2) Make more game styles in game and don't half ass it. You had the rite idea with Dust/Legion but the wrong approach. Remember back in the day the whole walk around the station thing. Expand on that. If kids want to FPS let them and let us really interact. Let them fight on planets and stations and what ever and do their version of PVE and let that stuff then create new products and items for the indy kids to build sell and move. Or even better remember this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45mlVuLs_Nw&list=PLF614A7A6461E61E1&index=19 I mean really that would have been cool getting out of the pod and having some real fun. Eve is a massive universe and you can only "balance" one game style for so long before you need to add new things other than paint jobs guys.

3) Fix the PVE that exists in eve from the same thing every time wack-a-mole joke that it is to something with more options. A day one player should be able to slowly progress threw higher and higher levels of missions, exploration and such. Missions there should be a lot more of them and more than the 4 levels for your mission runner types. And higher levels should be more and more group oriented. Sure use lowsec to add to the risk reward but don't close it all off so the only way to earn anything is to do it solo. Exploration is a good mechanic and should be built on adding more things to find. You really should have a team that does nothing more than create new missions, Anoms, Sites and what ever for players to work threw. I mean for real every major update should include new stuff for these players. This does not have to be new items or ships every time just new missions, Anoms and sites make the PVE grow and change I can't even imagine how many players we have lost because if they did the same level 4 mission or anom again they were going to rip their of eyes out.

4) PVP, new players should day one get some message, intro aura class what ever to let them know that New Eden is unforgiving place to live and get them excited about it. In Call of Duty the kids know they are progressing they know there KDR and get a idea of wow I did that. Beyond that CCP you should really push the whole EVE is hard thing not as a bad thing but as a do you have what it takes thing. Make a new player feel that pride that they are a tougher bunch then other MMO players.

p.s I plan to abuse the hell out of this if you go threw with it because I can.
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#438 - 2015-10-15 18:00:36 UTC  |  Edited by: May Arethusa
While an interesting attempt at a compromise, it's still a terrible idea.

Skillpoint farming is quite literally, the most risk-free form of isk generation you could suggest, and wouldn't be that difficult. As has been pointed out already, you're looking at an 8-day cycle per character. There is absolutely no way anyone can interfere with this process either, perhaps if skill loss were still a thing this might gain a little more traction.

That's ignoring the obvious "X is nerfed, liquidate and remap to Y" process most low-SP PVP characters will go through. There's no longer any desire to push a character beyond a specific point under this system. You simply liquidate superfluous SP for profit, remap each time your FotM is nerfed, and spend a day or two at most training back the lost SP.

Nice try, but no thanks.
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH
#439 - 2015-10-15 18:01:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Africa
TheSmokingHertog wrote:
Skinzee wrote:
Skinzee wrote:
I have a question for ALL people that say this is a bad idea...


--- WHAT EFFECT WOULD IT HAVE ON YOU AS A PILOT IF THIS WOULD ACTUALLY GO LIVE? ---


There is already an option to buy 0-200m SP characters... Character Bazaar - (Thats Pay2Win if you look at it that way)



Would love someone to actually give me a valid answer to this question.

As far as I can see, there is none.



I do... Bitter vets would have more people around them that could fly high end doctrines like they do. Just by roaming off their own SP.



Lemme throw this right back at you ...I had to wait 6 years to get my character trained up to be 145 mil sp do you think it fair that you would be able to achieve that by just buying sp and whalla ? Infact just **** off...**** that im outta here
Skinzee
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#440 - 2015-10-15 18:01:22 UTC
Malinger wrote:
No don't do this, not in any form or way. Stop now.


Explain why? Give a reason...

All the people saying NO and no-one is giving a reason WHY!