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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Senshi Hawk
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#301 - 2015-10-15 17:20:07 UTC
Let's make this very clear. Buying, training and selling pilots is my main source of income in this game. I am not wealthy. I am also not poor. Giving people the ability to shed skill points that they may deem "wasted", and in turn receive ISK for unallocated skill points, is something that will benefit the wealthy and make the ISK Ceiling higher. It is not overtly different than paying for subscription time, in the sense that not everybody can afford to do so.

I do not approve of paying for skill points.

I do not approve of raising the ISK Ceiling.

and I do not approve of anything that decreases the return value (fun OR isk) of training and selling your own pilots or pilots that you have acquired on an open market.
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#302 - 2015-10-15 17:20:35 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
I said in an earlier post that this was ridiculous and stupid.

I take that back after reading some of the other posts and thinking further. This could be very good for newer players and player retention.

What's ridiculous about it is that CCP is making this a pay-to-win service by making it available for plex. Limit the number of transfers to like two or three a year, so rich old bittervets and people who just want to buy plex to win can't abuse this, and it'd be fine.


This, just like I said before, give characters 1 slot a year and 1 buyable slot per year for PLEX based on the SP amount on the char, maybe 1 plex per X amount of skillpoints. Then lowend chars can easily grow fast (2 slots a year), and older chars can take a skill sprint when in war or something (1 normal slot, 1 for a lot of PLEX).

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
Wolfe copying
Naked Industries.
Olde Guarde Historical Preservation Society
#303 - 2015-10-15 17:20:40 UTC

Great Idea and I hope it comes to fruition.

I think this will help the character bazaar in some aspects. The AUR price will keep characters from being completely respecced to sell on the bazaar, because of the increased investment costs of re allocating sp versus homegrown sp ( A naturally trained Supercap sitter will be cheaper to create than a miner respecced to a cap sitter.). It can also be made to stream line characters that will be listed. (Taking away of unwanted skills, topping up of wanted skills).


It will be interesting to see what a packet will be going for. probably 600 - 700 mill for 500 k I imagine. but I don't know aur prices so it could be more. I would want to see it settle at around 1 billion per 500 k, after the initial crash of everyone trying to sell off their unwanted sp.


Instead of 500 k sp it should be made in packets of what a skill is 256 k , 512 k , etc..

One thing I think should happen is that there should be a diminishing return on the trading in of the high teir sp skills. X8 skills and up should be traded in for less sp to discourage the flooding of the market with unallocated sp.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#304 - 2015-10-15 17:20:44 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Querns wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Querns wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

As someone else already said, CCP's move to make the game "more accessible" have been smashing successes so for.

Naivety is a bad thing for a business.

And as I've said, correlation is not causation.

Nor does correlation exclude causation.

Sure, but the burden of proof is on the person who says "X happened, therefore the fact that Y also happened shows a direct relationship."

Correlation is evidence (or perhaps more accurately an analysis of evidence, but semantics). Evidence that can be used to support a conclusion of causation. Ignoring that evidence with a platitude of "correlation is not causation" is foolish.

The general public lifted "correlation is not causation" from scientific literature, most notably the "debate" on climate change. Yet, in the broad scientific community, correlation is used as evidence of causation in tens of thousands of papers across every quantifiable subject imaginable. Correlation alone does not prove causation, but it can be and is used as part of a set of proofs for causation.
Anise Tig'res
Doomheim
#305 - 2015-10-15 17:21:15 UTC
CCP, I promise, I'll stop bitching about your game now. I'll be good. Please please please don't take this away now that you've offered it. Oh my god this might actually get me to spend money on your game.
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#306 - 2015-10-15 17:21:19 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Moraguth wrote:
Bitter vet reporting in.

TL;DR: I'm not quitting and you can't have my stuff, but you're taking more and more uniqueness away from the game that I've loved since the very first trailer showing actual game footage that got me to apply for the beta and get in.

The whine fest:

Right now I have just shy of 229M SP. That is a simple number that says quite a few things. Assuming I've had this character the whole time (and I have), you know roughly how long I've played the game, what I've seen, what I've been through, etc. This can be verified with the API. I earned every single one of those SP. I'm also proud to say I've missed out on less than 48 hours of training my entire time playing the game.


Uhhmmm no. Those 229 million SP tell us you have had an account for a long time. It does not tell us what you have done in the game. And I can tell how long you have had account by clicking on your name in game or your profile here on the forums...Hell, I can even look you up on Eve Who and get that information.

So that information will not be lost...because it is available elsewhere or was never there to begin with.


Looking at the character age just tells you when the character was created (unless you were one of those people who got hit with the bug about a decade ago where your first few employment changes were lost - that happened to my dad's main), it doesn't tell you how long i've been active. At the very least 229m tells you how long i've been paying for the game. I have several friends who started the game around the same time I did, come back once or twice a year for a couple months, and then quit again. Their SP total is very VERY different from mine.

There is a difference, and it should continue to matter.

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon
SFX Bladerunner
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#307 - 2015-10-15 17:21:36 UTC
Skinzee wrote:


IM A NEWB AND I WANT TO PAY A LITTLE EXTRA TO FLY A SHIP AND ENJOY THE GAME THAT I ALREADY PAY FOR!


You forget that us 'vets' had to go through the same grind as you are experiencing right now, so there is actually no unfairness on our part, it is all on your part.Blink

I completely agree with the notion mentioned earlier that this paying for SP actually takes away from people actually ~playing the game~.
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#308 - 2015-10-15 17:22:00 UTC
Querns wrote:
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
I said in an earlier post that this was ridiculous and stupid.

I take that back after reading some of the other posts and thinking further. This could be very good for newer players and player retention.

What's ridiculous about it is that CCP is making this a pay-to-win service by making it available for plex. Limit the number of transfers to like two or three a year, so rich old bittervets and people who just want to buy plex to win can't abuse this, and it'd be fine.

Unfortunately, this is not possible.

Right now, affecting a character transfer causes 2 PLEX to be removed from CCP's Liabilities sheet and resolved. Introduction of skill extractors without at least attempting to mirror this realization of liabilities is bad for business. There's absolutely no chance they will be introduced without an associated PLEX/Aurum cost.


Yeah :( sad panda.

Golden bullets here we come.
Lucian Solomon
KILL MODE ACTIVATED
#309 - 2015-10-15 17:23:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucian Solomon
With this many tears you're on to something big CCP. Keep up the good work. It's the future, plug me in, load em up

I'm going to learn jiu jitsu.

+1
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#310 - 2015-10-15 17:23:14 UTC
Senshi Hawk wrote:
Let's make this very clear. Buying, training and selling pilots is my main source of income in this game. I am not wealthy. I am also not poor. Giving people the ability to shed skill points that they may deem "wasted", and in turn receive ISK for unallocated skill points, is something that will benefit the wealthy and make the ISK Ceiling higher. It is not overtly different than paying for subscription time, in the sense that not everybody can afford to do so.

I do not approve of paying for skill points.

I do not approve of raising the ISK Ceiling.

and I do not approve of anything that decreases the return value (fun OR isk) of training and selling your own pilots or pilots that you have acquired on an open market.

This is not a particularly compelling appeal. Cottage markets get destroyed all the time, and no tears are shed by the ones swinging the sledgehammer.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#311 - 2015-10-15 17:23:44 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Golden bullets here we come.

Not today spaghetti.
Tzu Wu
State War Academy
Caldari State
#312 - 2015-10-15 17:23:46 UTC
Skinzee wrote:
All the people moaning and complaining about the idea are people that already have 50-100+ million skill points...

Yes, you've spent your fair share of time training your skills to be where they are but this is NOT pay to win...

My character has 2.2million SP and am currently training core skills and want to fly a curse as its my favorite ship..

Current training time left to fly 'efficiently' - 70d 11h 21mn...

That is effectively 2.5m SP (roughly).

If I had the option to spend £20-30 to avoid those 70days to get into the ship I want to fly and make me want to play the game more, than I'd be happy to do it.


What issue do you see of a character being 'boosted' to 5m or even 10m skillpoints etc? I imagine it wont be cheap getting millions of skillpoints doing it this way either.

I was tempted by character bazaar and buying my own character but that character would never be 'mine'... it would never be special... never have my own name etc.

I fully agree with this option as I dont see a major issue with it.

All the vets can go cry somewhere else. Just because you dont want newbies being a 'competition' in anyway...

IM A NEWB AND I WANT TO PAY A LITTLE EXTRA TO FLY A SHIP AND ENJOY THE GAME THAT I ALREADY PAY FOR!



I have 111m sp and love the proposal. Hope to see you in a Curse soon™
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#313 - 2015-10-15 17:24:00 UTC
Skinzee wrote:
All the people moaning and complaining about the idea are people that already have 50-100+ million skill points...

Yes, you've spent your fair share of time training your skills to be where they are but this is NOT pay to win...

My character has 2.2million SP and am currently training core skills and want to fly a curse as its my favorite ship..

Current training time left to fly 'efficiently' - 70d 11h 21mn...

That is effectively 2.5m SP (roughly).

If I had the option to spend £20-30 to avoid those 70days to get into the ship I want to fly and make me want to play the game more, than I'd be happy to do it.


What issue do you see of a character being 'boosted' to 5m or even 10m skillpoints etc? I imagine it wont be cheap getting millions of skillpoints doing it this way either.

I was tempted by character bazaar and buying my own character but that character would never be 'mine'... it would never be special... never have my own name etc.

I fully agree with this option as I dont see a major issue with it.

All the vets can go cry somewhere else. Just because you dont want newbies being a 'competition' in anyway...

IM A NEWB AND I WANT TO PAY A LITTLE EXTRA TO FLY A SHIP AND ENJOY THE GAME THAT I ALREADY PAY FOR!


In other words, like the character bazaar, but with added flexibility.

My initial reaction was negative, then unlike Ripard Teg I actually did calm down. Reread the dev post and thought about it some more.

Not sure I like the idea, but it might be good.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
lm Stuck
Caucasian Culture Club
#314 - 2015-10-15 17:24:18 UTC
This is a terrible idea, and you should feel bad for suggesting it.

CCP Rise is killing this game one horrible idea at a time. smh

Seriously, is CCP so broke that this is even necessary? Stop being like every other company out there and quit treating your players like cashcows to be milked until dry.
SkyMeetFire
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#315 - 2015-10-15 17:24:32 UTC  |  Edited by: SkyMeetFire
Why not lock the rate you can use either the Extractor or Packet to a fixed interval (like free remaps)?

If you limited to something like once every week, or once every 10 days you'd not longer be talking about instantly building a character but rather simply accelerating. It'd be something closer to doubling the training rate for sub 5M SP characters, and the reduced returns would dramatically drop the value for higher end players. If it was on a weekly basis, 80M+ SP characters are only talking 2.6M SP added in a year, much less than the 20M+ they add in a year for normal training. For a fresh character the max 21.8M added is significant increase to their training rate, but still requiring some time for them to build up and not be instantaneous.

That timing interval should still allow for your general idea to be achieved without allowing rich vets to abuse it so easily.
Tank Murdock Jnr
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#316 - 2015-10-15 17:24:37 UTC
Oh. My. Satan.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Whatever happened to choices having consequences? To paraphrase Kirk (in the terrible fifth old-school Star Trek film), if I should have turned left when I turned right, that makes me me. Well, guess what...now you can sell your unfortunate right turns! Better yet, you can sell it to a total clown who'll throw plex at it to become 'leet.

Here's a revolutionary idea...if you want to improve the character bazaar, how about...improve the character bazaar? Create an ingame character auction system that is scam-proof (and/or is governed by ban-hammer rules)? Why completely change one of the fundamental game principles (an investment in time will always trump an investment in money)?

You'd be as well selling golden ammo, you really would.

Or is that next?

When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading 'Guns and Ammo', masturbating in your own faeces...do you just stop and go, 'Wow! It is amazing how f*cking crazy I really am!'?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#317 - 2015-10-15 17:24:48 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Querns wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Querns wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

As someone else already said, CCP's move to make the game "more accessible" have been smashing successes so for.

Naivety is a bad thing for a business.

And as I've said, correlation is not causation.

Nor does correlation exclude causation.

Sure, but the burden of proof is on the person who says "X happened, therefore the fact that Y also happened shows a direct relationship."

Correlation is evidence (or perhaps more accurately an analysis of evidence, but semantics). Evidence that can be used to support a conclusion of causation. Ignoring that evidence with a platitude of "correlation is not causation" is foolish.

The general public lifted "correlation is not causation" from scientific literature, most notably the "debate" on climate change. Yet, in the broad scientific community, correlation is used as evidence of causation in tens of thousands of papers across every quantifiable subject imaginable. Correlation alone does not prove causation, but it can be and is used as part of a set of proofs for causation.

Evidence alone is not sufficient. It has to be shown to directly affect the causation. Observing PCU count drop isn't even that great as evidence, because PCU itself is only tenuously related to subscriber count.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#318 - 2015-10-15 17:25:16 UTC
Mane Frehm wrote:
My initial reaction was very negative (full disclosure - this impacts me personally), but after thinking about it for a while I had the following thoughts:


1. The devblog talks about problems with the character bazaar and then somehow leaps to the conclusion that we need a method to transfer skillpoints from 1 character to another. The solution presented does not address the identified problem! If there are problems with the character bazaar, then identify and address those, (although in my opinion it is a classic information market where those with better information make profits from those with less).

2. Many others in this thread have already identified issues with characters suddenly being differently capable then expected, or the potential for abuse. These are valid concerns.

3. This does strike me as someones clever idea for extracting money from an older/declining player base. CCP has the right to run its game as it pleases, but I suggest to you this has the potential to greatly accelerate the current decline.



One of the earlier posters in this thread stated "I've told people that eve is about choices, community, and consequences." Very well said, Moraguth.

I would like to add to that by saying that characters are the reflection of those choices, communities and consequences. Each character has a history and a story, and once you allow skillpoints to move between characters you run the risk of destroying that. Where will the next Chribba come from if any character can instantly be capable of anything? What about the next great solo pilot, pirate queen or alliance leader? Characters are more than just their current owners, and you don't need to be a role player to see this.


In conclusion - I do think this is a bad idea; please don't do it.


Thanks, and I agree with your issue with the train of logic problem you talked about.

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#319 - 2015-10-15 17:25:37 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Querns wrote:
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
I said in an earlier post that this was ridiculous and stupid.

I take that back after reading some of the other posts and thinking further. This could be very good for newer players and player retention.

What's ridiculous about it is that CCP is making this a pay-to-win service by making it available for plex. Limit the number of transfers to like two or three a year, so rich old bittervets and people who just want to buy plex to win can't abuse this, and it'd be fine.

Unfortunately, this is not possible.

Right now, affecting a character transfer causes 2 PLEX to be removed from CCP's Liabilities sheet and resolved. Introduction of skill extractors without at least attempting to mirror this realization of liabilities is bad for business. There's absolutely no chance they will be introduced without an associated PLEX/Aurum cost.


Yeah :( sad panda.

Golden bullets here we come.

It seems you completely missed the point of what I said.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Grog Barrel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#320 - 2015-10-15 17:25:57 UTC
The idea itself is already quite insulting to the playerbase. I can even imagine your faces when you guys sit at the round table without ideas and someone out of utter boredom and aspiring to become some kind of "leader creative" comes up with such an aberration of a brainfart.