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Command Ships
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Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#1 - 2015-09-29 14:04:05 UTC
So if these things were designed to be platforms for FC's to fly while in command of a fleet they fell way short. Regardless of the fact that people will try to headshot them to get boosts off the fleet...

1) The EHP on all the command ships need to be on the Damnation's level

2) They need to get reduction for scan probe launcher fitting requirements

3) The skill change to them pretty much made these things a dead ship line for anyone but veterans

Not today spaghetti.
Anthar Thebess
#2 - 2015-09-29 14:10:01 UTC
You know that people are using them as a DPS ships also?
Lately we have even few fleet doctrines using this hulls.

Nothing like 150 command ships boosted by an offgrid t3 ;)

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2015-09-29 14:19:53 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
So if these things were designed to be platforms for FC's to fly while in command of a fleet they fell way short. Regardless of the fact that people will try to headshot them to get boosts off the fleet...

1) The EHP on all the command ships need to be on the Damnation's level

2) They need to get reduction for scan probe launcher fitting requirements

3) The skill change to them pretty much made these things a dead ship line for anyone but veterans


The whole command ship idea is broken anyway. No matter how you design them, something will be stupid about them. Making them harder to kill will only result in people training for them to field full doctrine of the thing and if they don't make them harder to kill then they will always be a mess to use by being targeted as soon as they land because of how powerful their presence actually is.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2015-09-29 14:32:34 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
You know that people are using them as a DPS ships also?
Lately we have even few fleet doctrines using this hulls.

Nothing like 150 command ships boosted by an offgrid t3 ;)


Oh good god. That is something I would never want to go up against.

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#5 - 2015-09-29 14:36:43 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Sexy Cakes wrote:
So if these things were designed to be platforms for FC's to fly while in command of a fleet they fell way short. Regardless of the fact that people will try to headshot them to get boosts off the fleet...

1) The EHP on all the command ships need to be on the Damnation's level

2) They need to get reduction for scan probe launcher fitting requirements

3) The skill change to them pretty much made these things a dead ship line for anyone but veterans


The whole command ship idea is broken anyway. No matter how you design them, something will be stupid about them. Making them harder to kill will only result in people training for them to field full doctrine of the thing and if they don't make them harder to kill then they will always be a mess to use by being targeted as soon as they land because of how powerful their presence actually is.


So take away the weapon bonuses on either the fleet command or field command ones and make them for actually FC'ing from.

Not today spaghetti.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2015-09-29 14:39:20 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:


So take away the weapon bonuses on either the fleet command or field command ones and make them for actually FC'ing from.



Err...why make them useless in any role other than off grid boosting? What have they done to deserve a nerf like that?
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-09-29 14:39:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Haatakan Reppola
They dont all need Damnation EHP levels, having 1 for each race more focused on smaller/faster fleets would be a huge benefit :)

Probe launcher is not realy needed, they are to slow in warp when you need to actualy be there before the fleet can warp to you (unless they changed their minds, not been much in fleets that used it lately)

***Numbers are rough estimates from new character using no remapping***
Training time:
Black Ops = 119 days 13 hr
Marauder = 115 days 4 hr
Command Ship = 104 days 15 hr
Heavy Interdiction Cruiser = 70 days 14 hr
Heavy Assault Cruiser = 62 days 22 hr
Recon Ship = 61 days
Logistics = 48 days 3 hr

As we can see T2 Cruisers range from 50-70 days
Command Ship add another 35-55 days and Battleship is just 10-15 days more. Clearly the CS are to close to T2 BS in train time and to far from T2 cruisers
Dropping Warfare Link Specialist IV (and leadership 5) would shave around 12-13 days off the training time, making it 23-43 days longer than T2 Cruisers and 22-27 days shorter than T2 Battleship
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#8 - 2015-09-29 14:41:05 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Sexy Cakes wrote:


So take away the weapon bonuses on either the fleet command or field command ones and make them for actually FC'ing from.



Err...why make them useless in any role other than off grid boosting? What have they done to deserve a nerf like that?


I don't mean make them all useless, just take one of each race (the old fleet/field command distinction) and make them bricks for FC'ing.

Not today spaghetti.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#9 - 2015-09-29 14:49:33 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Dropping Warfare Link Specialist IV (and leadership 5) would shave around 12-13 days off the training time, making it 23-43 days longer than T2 Cruisers and 22-27 days shorter than T2 Battleship

Considering that they have near BS projection and tank, this is not necessary at all. And it would make their primary intended role useless.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#10 - 2015-09-29 14:49:41 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
They dont all need Damnation EHP levels, having 1 for each race more focused on smaller/faster fleets would be a huge benefit :)


Can't you just boost from a T3 for a small/faster fleet?

Not today spaghetti.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2015-09-29 15:10:55 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Sexy Cakes wrote:


So take away the weapon bonuses on either the fleet command or field command ones and make them for actually FC'ing from.



Err...why make them useless in any role other than off grid boosting? What have they done to deserve a nerf like that?


I don't mean make them all useless, just take one of each race (the old fleet/field command distinction) and make them bricks for FC'ing.



...By making them worthless for anything else.

Why do you want to nerf them into the ground for anything outside of off grid boosting for large fleet fights? Is a sleipnir fleet really that scary a prospect?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#12 - 2015-09-29 15:13:56 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Is a sleipnir fleet really that scary a prospect?

It actually already is a very scary thing at the moment. Cool

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#13 - 2015-09-29 15:23:30 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Sexy Cakes wrote:


So take away the weapon bonuses on either the fleet command or field command ones and make them for actually FC'ing from.



Err...why make them useless in any role other than off grid boosting? What have they done to deserve a nerf like that?


I don't mean make them all useless, just take one of each race (the old fleet/field command distinction) and make them bricks for FC'ing.



...By making them worthless for anything else.

Why do you want to nerf them into the ground for anything outside of off grid boosting for large fleet fights? Is a sleipnir fleet really that scary a prospect?


Since everyone is rocking the claymores for pvp Roll

You insist on having 2 choices for skirmish command ships and none for fleet command ships?

Not today spaghetti.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2015-09-29 15:27:32 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:


Since everyone is rocking the claymores for pvp Roll

You insist on having 2 choices for skirmish command ships and none for fleet command ships?


Why is the answer to that a heavy nerf rather than a buff to make the claymore more viable?

Given that CCP's last attempt at a CS rebalance was to try and make them all actually viable as combat ships rather than something that sits in a deep safe and never actually goes on grid with a red chevron, why would they nerf half of them into the ground?
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#15 - 2015-09-29 15:31:06 UTC
Quote:
So if these things were designed to be platforms for FC's

The name is a misnomer. They are not meant to be exclusive to FCs or to command from. They are more "Fleet Tractical Support Platform"... but that doesn't sound nearly as cool.

And no... this issue is not limited only to Command ships.
Combat Battlecruisers should be called Heavy Cruisers.
Destroyers should be called Corvettes.
Battleships (as they currently are) should be called Armored Artillary Platform.
Heavy Assault Cruisers should be called "Tactical Cruisers."
Tech 3 Cruisers should be called "Next Generation Cruisers."

It is all semantics.


To the heart of your OP though...

1a. No. If anything, the Damnnation should lose some of its HP. Stupid 400k ehp brick.
2a. Why? We have a plethora of other vessels that can do this already.
3a. They take no longer to train than they did before their skills were re-done. And yes, those skills are necessary to actually perform the job that they list in the tin. If you want a pure damage platform though, look towards Navy Battlecruisers.

How did you Veterans start?
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#16 - 2015-09-29 15:39:39 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
I don't mean make them all useless, just take one of each race (the old fleet/field command distinction) and make them bricks for FC'ing.


Terrible idea. Shieldfleet, get a Vulture and a Damnation for armor.

Then there's sleip/claymore/nighthawk for local tanked minigangs boosting on grid, and Astarte/Eos to do that for armor, it's been done really beautifully.

As it stands, each of the CS got a strong identity with distinct niches in which they excel - for me mainly the Eos as a linking triplerep monster, though I'm looking forward to the day my Sleip pilot got link skills for that double link arty nano boat Pirate
CriticalmaK
Dark Nova Inc.
#17 - 2015-09-29 15:43:03 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
[quote=Sexy Cakes][quote=Danika Princip][quote=Sexy Cakes]

Is a sleipnir fleet really that scary a prospect?


I guess it depends on fleet size but a large number of Absolutions is bed-wetting territory. That said, there are answers to Absolution fleets.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2015-09-29 15:45:33 UTC
CriticalmaK wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
[quote=Sexy Cakes][quote=Danika Princip][quote=Sexy Cakes]

Is a sleipnir fleet really that scary a prospect?


I guess it depends on fleet size but a large number of Absolutions is bed-wetting territory. That said, there are answers to Absolution fleets.


I'm ok with pretty much any fleet concept as long as the solution to it is not more of itself...
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-09-29 15:47:57 UTC
I think the best idea I have read regarding Command ships was to let them use a bastion module.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#20 - 2015-09-29 15:51:10 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Dropping Warfare Link Specialist IV (and leadership 5) would shave around 12-13 days off the training time, making it 23-43 days longer than T2 Cruisers and 22-27 days shorter than T2 Battleship

Considering that they have near BS projection and tank, this is not necessary at all. And it would make their primary intended role useless.


Near BS projection is up for debate, they still use Cruiser weapons with slightly stronger application bonus that what is normal on cruiser hulls

They dont have extreme tank, Damnation with resist + hp bonus have is not all there is. Other that slightly more base HP they are not that special for tank.
Eagle have the same 4% shield resists as caldari CS while also having the same number or mid slots as Vluture (1 more than Nighhawk).
Demios have same Rep bonus as Gallente CS with same number of low slots.
These ships also have lower sig radius, -50% sig penalty from mwd and strong application bonuses

Compared to other T2 ships the Commanships are closer to Cruisers for application than Marauders (BO is special role ships like HIC or Logi)

So the application is around the level we see from T2 Cruisers and the Tank is also in the range of what T2 Cruisers get (+ some base HP) if we ignore the outline +50% HP bonus from Damnation.

Either make them all have the Damnation tank or give them shorter training time to get it more in line with the actual performance
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